Attention all ATS aquarium experts... A fishy problem....

Ok, all you fish loving aquarium buffs out there in ATS land, it’s time to show your stuff.

I have recently purchased a small fish tank for my daughter, as she wants to have tropical fish like my parents setup. I thought it would be good for her to have a bit of responsibility and have something to look after that is reasonably easy for her to handle. It also seems to be pretty calming for her to have a fish tank nearby, as she sits and watches the fish in my folk’s tank for hours.

I only know basic things about aquarium fish, but am looking at getting fresh water tropical fish. The main two I am looking at are the guppy or molly fish, such as this;



And the neon tetra;



The tank is approximately 350Wx300Dx400mm high. (approx 13inx12inx15in.)

My questions are, are there any other fresh water tropical fish that would be good in a tank that are relatively easy care?

How many fish would be adequate for such a space without overloading it?

What kinds of fish (other than those mentioned) would go together well, and which ones would be best avoided?

Would it be worth having live plants in a small space, or would it be better to have plastic plants?

Any specific gravel/rocks/ornaments I should go for or avoid?

Any other little tidbits that would be useful.

At this stage it’s only a small tank to begin with to see how she goes, but could expand to a larger tank in time, but still maintaining the fresh water tropical approach.

Your turn ATS. Help me with this fishy problem...

Hey dude. I don't know a lot about aquariums.. But I reckon just go to the pet shop and pick out like 20 fish. Me thinks you could fit maybe 20of those guppies in that tank.. from my very rudimentary knowledge... I've seen more overloaded tanks. Chinese fighting fish are cool.. but I don't think you can put them in the same tank as the guppies or they will be.. fought.

reply to post by bigdohbeatdown

Originally posted by bigdohbeatdown
Hey dude. I don't know a lot about aquariums..

Which kinda disqualifies you from replying to the question.

But I reckon just go to the pet shop and pick out like 20 fish. Me thinks you could fit maybe 20of those guppies in that tank.. from my very rudimentary knowledge... I've seen more overloaded tanks.

Don't Do This!

Start slowly with a few fish of each sort.
Guppies, platies, mollies and neons will all live very happily with each other.
4 or 5 max of any type of fish is enough. (Males and females will breed)
Do Not overload with any one type of fish.
That is a monoculture and will quickly deteriorate.
Try to get a biological balance, so that the tank cleans itself mostly.
Snails, "Suckerfish" etc clean the glass walls for you and keep algae down.
Read as much as you can and involve your daughter from the very start.

Don't save on the filter!

Don't overload the Tank!

Peace.

reply to post by 74Templar


Guppies and Mollies are a great start - they're colourful, active and they are known to be very hardy fish that can be prolific breeders which will add to the enjoyment of owning an aquarium.

My questions are, are there any other fresh water tropical fish that would be good in a tank that are relatively easy care? ...What kinds of fish (other than those mentioned) would go together well, and which ones would be best avoided?

Other tropical breeds worth considering are swordtails and platties. These two breeds co-exist extremely well, as they do with guppies and mollies - collectively, these four breeds are known as live breeders and don't lay eggs as such and are well suited for a starters tank.

How many fish would be adequate for such a space without overloading it?

As for how many?? Your dimensions allow for around 40lt of water, the general rule is around 1cm of fish per 1lt of tank water... for example, this suggests around 5 x 8cm or 8 x 5cm fish at maturity.

This rule of the thumb is very conservative though.

Would it be worth having live plants in a small space, or would it be better to have plastic plants?

It's best to start off with plastic plants until the tank is established, live plants alter water Ph and water quality in general, however they are beneficial in providing oxygen uptake in the tank.

Any specific gravel/rocks/ornaments I should go for or avoid?

Avoid all ocean rocks, pebbles, shells or driftwood from any source... although, crushed coral is beneficial as a layer of the substrate, yet best left for now.

Most reputable aquariums have a large range of "tank safe" ornaments, rocks and substrates.

Any other little tidbits that would be useful.

The most important tips are to set up the tank prior to introducing any fish and allow the water to mature - correct Ph and water temperature for your choice of fish species with near zero ammonia, nitrates and nitrites being detectable is preferred.

Introduce your new fish gradually, 2-3 per week and do regular partial water changes, around 25-30% of tank water per week until the filter is established.

Found a site that may be helpful
OzPets.com

Hope your daughter gets much enjoyment out of her new pets.
Cheers

Thanks guys for the replies.

I'll check back in tomorrow with a few more questions, but what you have provided so far was exactly what I was looking for.

Just had a rough as guts 3 hr flight into Melbourne, forgot how that horrible dry heat tastes...

It is a bit strange to see a clear sky though....

Will catch up after a decent nights sleep.

reply to post by Perhaps


Some great tips there!



I personally love the look of a tank purely for the Neon's. There's a link in my signature about The Magic of the Planted Tank if you want some great inspiration!

Neon's can be susceptible to Neon disease though, especially from some of the crappy aquariums here in Melbourne. (Unless you mean Florida?). If you can, pay the extra money at Subscape Aquariums in Richmond, they have far better stock.

Livefish.com.au can also be considered, yup, they send the fish to your door in the mail! Although, the last lot of fish I got from them a year ago came with white spot disease.. Hopefully things have improved.

I'd avoid Mollys/Platies unless your willing to add a little salt into your aquarium, they don't do so well in Melbourne water. Neon's do cope better in our out of the tap water down here, but ALWAYS put in some plants, they will help to keep the water clear and healthy and fish happy. (also, don't forget to de-chlorinate).

Keep in mind to avoid the excitement of adding the fish too soon, let your heater/filters settle in for a while first. Don't add 20 fish at once unless the tank is huge (I've got a 7x2x2 foot tank in my lounge, before you ask it's an awful mess of blue-green algae and hair algae which has been seeming to come from our water supply. My high lighting has only exacerbated this problem, so it looks like a nightmare)




Oh next edit, STAR for you for actually asking before buying a bag of fish and tank all at the same time, then throwing them all in only to wonder why they all get sick and die within a week. That happens far too often, fish aren't quite like puppies - the owner's satisfaction comes from keeping them healthy. I found my kids tended to get bored with fish quickly, much to my happiness because I was able to steal their tank for breeding purposes!

Just a hint - when you are choosing fish watch the tank they are in closely for a minute or so - you want to look for signs that any of the fish are sick. Look particularly to see if their top fins are fanned out proudly or are pressed down against their bodies. If they are down, chances are the fish is sick and will have passed it to all the other fish in the same tank. This also applies to any dead fish in the same tank - if any dead fish are there then don't buy from that tank.

As for what a kid would like in their tank, Neons are always great, I've always had a soft spot for Axolotls though - warning, they are not everyones cup of tea admittedly.

reply to post by Kryties


I'd agree with that! They were my first species to breed (Axolotls) They can also be rather friendly and will eat from your kids fingers, if you dare. They are messy though so keep up the water changes.

Here are my suggestions, such as they are, as stated by a few other members there are a few things to do before adding life to your tank. The most important is the PH balance of your tank so make sure your chlorine content is under control and your water is aged about a week before adding life. Keep in mind that cleaning the tank is a pain especially if you have a multitude of fish which is why I use the word life. Your filter is important but in order to decide what filter you want you need to have an idea of the type of life you want. For instance it would not be beneficial to have a bottom filter if you are going to have eels or fresh water manta rays(they get about 3 inches across at adulthood and need a rockless bottom(about $35 a piece)) if that makes sense.

In any case when it comes to cleaning your tank you want it to be as natural as possible. There are many creatures that will clean your tank for you from suckerfish, plecostomus, catfish, snails, etc. but keep in mind most bottom feeders or "Cleaning" creatures will out grow your tank and you will be forced to get a bigger tank or kill them off to replace them with smaller ones. Someone above mentioned snails, although snails do a great job, you have to be very careful with them. As an example a blue shell snail can grow to 7inches in shell diameter so obviously just one would be too much later on down the line so check the adult size of your snail before making a decision about adding them to your tank and how many. Also, a snail can have hundreds of babies at one shot so over population of snails can become a problem as well. It is not to say that they are a bad idea, just do some homework on what species you want. I personally go with "Ghost Shrimp". Ghost shrimp, like all shrimp are extreme cleaners. They are clear with shades of color and of course their organs but are pretty cool to watch. They maintain a pretty small size and are self regulating in population. They average about .33cents a piece and can peacefully coexist with most freshwater creatures including Betas(fighting fish) as well as not needing too much of an aeration to the water.

Aeration, You mentioned having live plants, but as someone mentioned above they do drastically change the PH of your tank not just by adding them but also through their life cycle. Some people like "bubblers" and they are fine as long as they are not over or under done. I like flowing water and have placed a waterfall above my tank that flows into the corner of my tank but if you go this route you have to be mindful as to how much suction is created and make sure your tubing is not exposed or open to your life. They may not be small enough to be sucked in but can get stuck to the tubing and ruin not only the life but also the pump.

Heating, a tank heater may be needed but depending on what life you choose it is not necessary. For instance guppies, tetra, betas, ghost shrimp, snails, etc like temps between 70 and 76F so room temp in most cases. If you have a top light that is on for at least 12hours a day is enough to heat the tank a few degrees and will give the life a realistic temp change which is actually good for the health of your life.

Feeding, most life can go with a single feeding a day where some do better with morning and evening feedings and depending on what you have it may be more than just flakes. For instance eels will need both flakes and blood worms so be sure to check on the best feeding procedures of your life in the tank.

As for life in your tank you will want to keep the majority of your life to non aggressive or at most semi aggressive. The tags on the tanks at the pet store should say their grade in this area. A single beta, being aggressive, is okay but make sure your other fish do not have long flowing colorful fins or they will not survive the attacks. I would suggest a variety of life rather than a single or couple of species in your tank as they tend to do better(it also makes it more interesting to watch) and avoid schooling fish. Schooling fish continue to swim and it disrupts the sleeping patterns of your non schooling fish which makes not only health an issue but also even non aggressive can become aggressive when stressed too much.

Decorations, Try and find ceramic or natural(non salt water ie shells) decorations but if you have to go with plastic put them in a tank by themselves in balanced PH and leave them for a couple of weeks prior to adding them to your tank. They are not supposed to, but some will give off toxic chemicals in the water that can damage the life in your tank. This letting them sit will cover them with a fine film that will encase those chemicals.

Just do a little homework and you should be just fine, I hope she enjoys her new aquarium.

Putting 20 fish into that tank will kill them in a rather short time.

Here are some golden rules:

1) Never get a tank with less than 25 Gallons. The smaller the tank the harder it will be to achieve a natural balance between Fish, Plants, Bacteria and nutrients.

2) Always get an external Filtersystem, and always get one for roughly twice the capacity as your tank, otherwise you end up cleaning it every other day, preventing you from reaching a stable balance as described above.

3) Put some plants in the tank and let it sit empty with full pumps for at least two weeks, so filter bacteria can develop.

4) Slowly start putting a few fish in the tank, try to use fish from the same geographical region which have similar requirements regarding water hardness, PH and temperature.

Here's a video of my 28 Gallon ( Miniature) Tank:


And my roughly 80 Gallon "African Swamp style" tank.


EDIT: There isn't a single artificial plant in my tanks. I do recommend building a CO² generator for extensive plant growth though. I build mine from an empty bottle using sugar / yeast to produce CO². Just keep an eye on your PH levels and avoid going below 6.5.

Start slowly with a few fish of each sort.
Guppies, platies, mollies and neons will all live very happily with each other.
4 or 5 max of any type of fish is enough. (Males and females will breed)
Do Not overload with any one type of fish.
That is a monoculture and will quickly deteriorate.
Try to get a biological balance, so that the tank cleans itself mostly.
Snails, "Suckerfish" etc clean the glass walls for you and keep algae down.
Read as much as you can and involve your daughter from the very start.

Best advice, for what you are looking to do....a startup aquarium...

For the "Suckerfish"....get a Plecostomus
en.wikipedia.org...

They will keep down the algae levels of the tank, as the poster mentioned.

Don't overfeed them, follow the directions.

When you get ready to put them in the new tank (from the store), follow their directions.

If the tank is in a cold place, you may need a heater. Nothing kills fish like cold, cold water.

Always get an external Filtersystem, and always get one for roughly twice the capacity as your tank, otherwise you end up cleaning it every other day, preventing you from reaching a stable balance as described above.

Another piece of really good advice.

A single beta, being aggressive, is okay but make sure your other fish do not have long flowing colorful fins or they will not survive the attacks

I'd recommend against ANY aggro fish. Betas can quickly kill all the others.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

So far, I've managed to work out Ph balance = very important, set everything up and leave it for approx a week to allow the water to basically 'set' everything before adding the fish.

I'll be looking at pairs of most likely 4 types, mollies, neons, swordtails and platties, but add them just a few at a time.
I'm also going to look at the shrimp as cleaners, even though I may have to concede one suckerfish, as my daughter seems to love watching them the best.

Also going to add plastic plants for the time being, as the space doesn't really allow live plants, although if I look at a bigger tank down the track that may change.

Just a couple of last questions;

Which water is best to add? I've heard everything from tap water with water ager to rain water on its own. As it's pretty much the makeup of the tank, I'd like to definetely get that part right.

And heaters and filters. I had a bit of a scan across ebay and some local pet stores, but for the size of the tank what kind of filter and heater would suit best?

The last thing is an aerator. My daughter really wants an aerated stone to create bubbles 'for the fish' of course.
Would a small stone suffice, or would a longer stick be ok for a tank that size?

Thanks again everyone for the replies. I know I could have just Googled all this and got a few answers, but I find the personal approach from people who have actually done it is the best way to go.

You guys rock.

Just go easy adding that many fish to a very small aquarium. I'd wait longer than 1 week though, although 1 or two hardy fish would be good.
Neons plus that group of livebearers you choose honestly look great in a tank, however either the neons or the livebears will not be at their happiest given differing preferences for water types. The livebearers will be wanting small amounts of salt to be added, whereas the neons will hate that.

Personally, I try and keep to as few species as possible, because a school of fish just looks more natural to me. Also, shrimp are great to add in HOWEVER, I would like to warn you that they are very much a 'canary' resident in your tank. In Australia, glass shrimp are now much more available, but all shrimp need to go through a very long and gentle acclimation to your tank's water. If you buy a bag of ten, plonk them in, I guarantee that 9 will be dead within 48 hours if your water is not perfect.

A tank of them look awesome though, and a tank filled with breeding CRS shrimp looks incredible! Also, there are occasionally Riffle shrimp, normally collected from around the Snowy River way, and they are an amazing and beautiful creature to watch.

At first though, stick with small numbers and get a few bronze catfish. they will keep the bottom reasonable and if you take the glass cleaning duty which will be easy in a tank that size you will be fine. Let some green spot/dust algae grow though on rocks/wood. The fish will peck at it, and it actually can assist in keeping water conditions stable and fresh (even though it looks icky at first, eventually you will see it as part of the ecosytem). It's the hair algae, black beard, blue-green algae's which are a pain to keep in check, avoid that!

Oh, your kid might also want bright pink gravel, try and talk her out of it and keep things as natural as you can and the occupants will be much happier and feel less stressed!

reply to post by 74Templar


So odd that you would post this thread. I set up a 10 gallon tank (what you have), 3 days ago. I took pics as soon as it was setup.

Back story: My 9 year old son got a goldfish and a vase as a prize from an event he attended. When he brought it home, he was excited, and said, now I can have my own pet. Being the realist, I told him it wouldn't last more than a couple of days. It was floating the next morning, and he was devastated. I told him we'd start a REAL aquarium, but he'd have to take care of them. He agreed.

I used to be an aquarium specialist, peaking out at 55 gallons for tank size, in my younger days, raising everything from Oscars, Plecos, Albino Catfish, Angelfish, Piranha, Silver Dollars, and Snails. (The pet store was more than willing to buy my surplus fish. 6 inch Oscars bring in about $32.00 each.)

Warning on snails: While good for tank cleaning, they breed worse than rabbits. You'll have hundreds of them if you're not careful. In small tanks, no snails.

Oscars and Piranha eat "feeder fish", so I would have a separate 30 gallon tank raising my "feeder goldfish". It was a vicious cycle. I would take my goldfish, and plop them into the 55, and they'd soon become dinner. It really is an interesting hobby. Having run the gamut of every freshwater species, I researched saltwater, and never took the plunge. The first wife and I were moving to a new place, so I drained my many tanks, and instead of pursuing the hobby, I sold or gave away all the equipment. My firstborn was about 6 at the time, and now he's in college, so it's been well over a decade since I've messed with aquariums.


Since my 9 year old agreed to take care of his fish, I called my brother up to see if he had a 10 gallon tank laying around. He did. A plain tank, and he tossed in a brand new Hartz 200 gph external filter. That was all. Time to go shopping at the pet store, and we also made a stop at our local Wal-Mart. I returned home with a gob of equipment, my wallet about $75.00 USD lighter, and 6 "feeder goldfish" that cost 13 cents each, in a plastic bag.

The point here is to set up a tank quick. Instant gratification, but also to run in what's called a "biological filter". Those three weeks that others talk about? Yes, that's true, but I have a technique to set up a tank almost instantly, in fact, by the end of the night, the goldfish HAD to be in the new tank, else they wouldn't survive the night in a plastic bag. "Feeder fish" are the best to set up a new tank, and establish the required "biological filter". They are hardy, and deposit the proper nitrites (through their excrement), which are then sucked up by the external filter, and are lodged in the filtering mechanism. My favorite is a common kitchen sponge. As water flows past, the microorganisms (bacteria), process the nitrites, but a new tank has very few to begin with. I kickstart the process by adding in fish immediately, and "dirty" fish, such as feeders, introduce the required bacteria through their excrement.

Nature is amazing, and self-regulating, especially in closed hydrological environments. Those important three weeks for nature to balance the nitrate cycle, with no fish aren't really required. You just can't toss a Molly or a Tetra in there yet. Let feeder goldfish swim and establish the bio-filter.

So yeah, I cleaned the old dirty tank, with dish soap and a scrubby. I rinsed it very well with super hot water. My son rinsed the 10 pounds of gravel (natural stone, a preference), and I placed it in the tank. I added 4 gallons of hot water, and 6 gallons of cold water, attached the thermometer to the side of the tank, and I happened to be 10 degrees above the green zone. I tossed in a tray of ice cubes to bring the temp down. While waiting for the temp to drop, I placed in the airline with the bubbler under the gravel, added the rocks on the bubbler to weigh it down, and placed the plant and other rocks. I wet the static cling background paper, and put it in place. I added in the external filter, primed it full of water, and started it. The temp by then was in the green range, so I floated the fish for 20 minutes. Then, I cut open the bag, and introduced them to their new home.

Today, the water is crystal clear, the fish happy, and in three days I've created a solid bio-filter in which I could introduce other, more delicate fish. My son feeds them, and watches them, and so do I. An old hobby sprung to life.



Side View: Those green streaks are actually the bubbles floating up under the green light of the hood.




Note: Pics taken within 15 minutes of fish introduction. Tank temperature is the main consideration. The bio-filter follows.

Only 62 characters left.....Continued.

The external filter is the single most important variable in a healthy tank.

I can't stress that enough.

Mine is oversized for my tank size, as 200 gph, gallons per hour, means my external filter will filter the contents of my 10 gallon aquarium 20 times every hour. That's overkill. If I upgrade my tank, I could use the same external filter on an aquarium up to 30 gallons, with success.

I'll need to clean my filter once a month, at my current ratio of filtration.

Here's another important factor:

Your external filter contains all the "healthy" bacteria, in it's filtration unit. When you clean it, or replace it, that resets the amount of bacteria in your healthy tank. That's why I use the common kitchen sponge as an add-in to whatever filtration I use. My external filter has two slots in it, so you can add "cartridges", but I put a sponge in one of them. When cleaning the filter unit, I place the sponge to the side, add a new filter, but also put the "old" sponge back in place, with all the "biological goodies" intact. I don't rinse it. The sponge has millions of cavities that collect the beneficial bacteria, and a filter change incorporates not bothering them too much.

It's less stress for your tank, and I've never had a problem.

reply to post by Druid42


Thanks for all that, all this new info is making me wish I was home so I could start setting it up... Oh well...

I've been having a bit of a think about a tank roughly twice the size, as this one is a little small and I'd really like to not have to limit the kinds of fish to just a few.

The idea is my parents have an approx 3mx1mx600mm tropical tank that is the centre piece of their lounge. My daughter sits there for hours, and has done since she was a baby, and watches the fish. I had the smaller tank given to me, but at the moment thinking of buying a tank somewhere in the realm of 1mx500mmx400mm (HxWxD).

Will goldfish go ok in warmer water? I've heard they grow to sandwich size in warmer water. Even though we're in the tropics, I'll still use a heater to keep the water at around 25C (77F), as we are inland, and in winter it does get very chilly up here overnight.

Would you also be able to recommend what type of water to use? Where we are is only tanks (rainwater), so I'm not sure how they'll go if I put them into rainwater. Are there any kinds of treatments for the water to make it the right Ph for the fish?

reply to post by 74Templar


reply to post by 74Templar

I've heard they grow to sandwich size in warmer water.

No, you cannot make sammiches out of your fish!

Honestly, start small. Once you get the knack of a biological filter, then upgrade to a bigger tank. The worst mistake any enthusiast can make is to buy a big tank, thinking, oh wow, I have a big tank, big tanks are easier to maintain than an itty bitty tank. Not true. You have more leeway, sure, and it is easier to maintain, but you completely miss out on the skill it takes to maintain a small volume of water that is conducive to aquatic life. The small tanks test your skill. If you can balance out the hydrosphere in a small tank, and keep it healthy for say, 3 months, then add another tank to your collection.

DO NOT go bigger until you learn the basics.

Most any freshwater fish will keep growing, given aquarium space, save tropicals. (Your Tetras, and Mollies.) Plecos will grow, and grow. I've had them up to a footlong, rather beastly at that size. Goldfish are the same, but they are only starter fish. What you need to factor in is breeding. A brood will produce over 3 dozen babies, and if you keep the mother in an isolation chamber, two fish become 36 really quickly.

Don't worry about temps, as once your tank is established, the volume of water changes temp very slowly, not enough to harm your fish. They can tolerate temp spikes, but for them, it's very gradual, and they adapt.

Don't worry about the type of water. Mother nature, once starter fish are introduced, takes care of the rest. Rainwater is actually better than tap water, as chemicals are added to the water supply, and it takes her a while longer to neutralize those. Rainwater actually has more starter bacteria than treated water, so you are on the plus there.

The PH fuss really only applies to salt water tanks, and salinity content. Freshwater tanks maintain a natural balance of 7, and if if goes too high (which you can determine by water clarity (if your water gets cloudy)), simply do a 25% water change to lower it a bit more. You won't see cloudy water with an oversized external filter, save for overfeeding.

I'll go further into tank PH levels if you want, but it has to do with fish pooping, and raising the acidity of the tank. PH stands for the Potential of Hydrogen, and in freshwater tanks, removing a portion of the water and replacing it with fresh reduces the PH levels to acceptable levels, with no fish removal, shock, or stress to your fish.

It's all about balance.

reply to post by 74Templar


Can I ask roughly what part of Aus you are in? If your right up north (sounds like it), you might want to consider getting Australian Rainbow fishes instead!? Mind you, I'd be thinking 3'x18"x18" would be about as small as I'd go. If you have trouble tracking down supplies of them, lookup Dave Wilson who lives up in N.T. He has done phenominal things for the hobby in Australia and regularly takes trips to seek out wild caught new species from different creeks up that way. He has a website and a massive wholesale plant/fish farm/ponds. But his website is pretty old, and I think you actually have to email him to place orders... He's a bit old school (pardon the pun). But he will ship you great healthy quality fish from a plane in NT and you'll have them very fast. I think his place is called Aqua Green? But dont quote me on that.

If you can collect rainwater, DO IT! Your fish will love you!
Here's some info about Rainbows

reply to post by Qumulys


I'm in SE Queensland, just off the Sunshine Coast. It is fairly warm here most of the year round, but we do get frosts at night sometimes in winter, so I'm wondering if a heater won't do them any harm.

We only have rainwater here, there is mains past the property, but I just can't be arsed connecting the mains just yet, seeing as we have two 30,000 litre tanks that regularly overflow, added to which it will cost some ridiculous amount for some guy to connect one line into the house basically.

So in either case, it'll be rainwater that goes into the tank. Now I just gotta get back home and get started on it all.

reply to post by Druid42


Dammit, I was thinking of aquaculture down the track ya know....

So I'm looking at a couple of stock standard gold fish to get things started, then introdce the fresh water tropical fish after how long? Would a week be ok?

Lastly, will the gold fish be aggressive toward the tropicals? Or will they get along ok?