Curiosity: "Thought-Experiment", Image Compilation PLUS a few Perhaps 'Disturbing' Questions, page 3


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 22 times


reply posted on 6-3-2013 @ 12:37 AM by jeep3r
Originally posted by Mayson

If someone is sitting there watching all the footage he's probably so tired of looking at rocks that everything just starts looking the same. I know there are "interesting" rock formations, but what may be interesting to us is probably not as interesting to a geologist.


That's a good pointer, Mayson!

And while talking about things that can easily be overseen but may still be worth investigating: I recently came across another peculiar 'rock formation' imaged on Sol 64. I didn't post it up to now, because it takes a bit of imagination to actually see what I see there and any interpretation is certainly 'debatable'.

But first, take a look for yourself:




Click here for the original NASA/JPL image.

At least to me, this too, is a very special formation and it also lies within the Rocknest area (not far away from 'The Ornament', by the way). I'm not saying it's anything else than a rock. Yet, it features an interesting variety of geometrical details that actually surprise me when thinking of it being just a 'natural rock' ...

Well, whether it's that or indeed something else, we'll probably never find out. But it's definitely one of those features I'd have chosen for Curiosity to investigate a bit more in detail (of course, only if there's no quicksand around and only after having inspected 'the boat', 'hugo', 'the ornament', etc. etc.) ...


reply posted on 6-3-2013 @ 07:45 PM by ArMaP
reply to post by wmd_2008



But, as I always say, if done by a professional, nobody would notice it.

This is what I could do without an automated tool like the content-aware fill, just with good old copy/paste (and a little post-processing). It took me some 20 minutes.



PS: some years ago I did a test; I presented two photos and asked people if they could tell which photo had been altered and if they could say what had been altered in that photo. Nobody could say what was altered. I will look for that thread.


reply posted on 6-3-2013 @ 08:43 PM by wmd_2008
reply to post by ArMaP



Have you seen this way of spotting altered pictures

www.cs.albany.edu...



reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 07:33 AM by ArMaP
reply to post by wmd_2008



Yes, I remember seeing it some months ago.

As it says in the text, this is easier applied to a situation where the copied image comes from a different file, not from a different part of the same image, as in that case the compression (if any) and noise are all the same.


reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 11:12 AM by jeep3r
reply to post by ArMaP



If my interpretation or understanding is correct, the method detects the natural noise variance by applying band-pass filters to different channels and measuring the correlation of noise distribution within certain sections (local windows) of the image, and within these channels.

If this is the case, then that particular correlation would no longer be 'constant' after using editing-tools (eg. stamp, smudge, eraser etc.), which would also be true for the NASA/JPL images we get from Curiosity ... even taking into account the level of compression they applied. I'm not sure what level the authors exactly meant when referring to heavy JPEG compression causing their method to become (potentially) less reliable.

Whether I got it right or not: I certainly ask myself whether there's no way to preserve the natural noise variance (in different color channels of an image) during the process of manipulation? Any experts out there!?

P.S.: By the way, this is my 100th post ... hooray


reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 01:32 PM by Pinke
Originally posted by jeep3r
reply to
post by ArMaP


If my interpretation or understanding is correct ...

Error level analysis at its base level is difference / comparative process.

You can mimick what that website does to an extent by taking the image, saving a more compressed copy and then subtracting it from the original. Basically it's using the properties of JPEG compression since applications such as Adobe or spliced images handle block based compression uniquely.

the authors exactly meant when referring to heavy JPEG compression causing their method to become (potentially) less reliable.

If an image is saved multiple times over and over again or saved at very low quality, this technique does become less reliable and on the opposing side covering your image in noise will alter every compression block and make it harder to interpret. That would get you caught out in other ways though.

Whether I got it right or not: I certainly ask myself whether there's no way to preserve the natural noise variance

It's called counter-forensics. (I wouldn't call it noise variance exactly maybe but yus its valid question anyway>.<)

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by wmd_2008


But, as I always say, if done by a professional, nobody would notice it.

Before I start, I say I think you're awesome Armap. ATS will hate me for this, but what you saying isn't quite accurate and showing ATS persons photos is not a test of forensics at all.

Image forensics doesn't happen on ATS. Not being mean! Just we don't do comparative science here and if we did, very few persons would read it.

NASA has provided a certain level of transparency with their imagery and hardware leaving them vulnerable if they are faking and altering images. The image forensics game has developed fast in the last ten years, and we keep finding more ways to model and classify CG and tampered imagery.

Perhaps if they are using incredibly solid computer generation software and virtual cam, they could be generating the images entirely, but even then. To say 'if done by a professional' no one would notice ... no not a professional, a counter-forensics God would be needed to do this, or they shooting on film sets (again haha).

This is really brief stuff, but it should give an idea:

Camera lenses are an image ballistics go to - they often contain unique properties which can be modelled.

Chromatic abberation, for example, is from failure to focus light from all wavelengths; different wavelengths of light will hit different parts of the sensor which can be modelled and then compared to other images. The image center can also be defined to detect cropping, and any attempts to composite would have to match any lens abberations such as this. There are multiple of these types of things that could be targetted in the Curiousity dataset.

NASA have also been pretty up front about their sensor and other hardware choices. Their choice of color filter array for example. The demosaicing process and interpolation creates periodic correlation patterns. Changes in this pattern would show that an image was altered, and Curiousity is providing a huge data set for consistency investigations here.

The actual editing process is a whole other maths mine field. Scaling, rotating etc ... will resample the image. Again this can be modelled. With the massive data set provided by Curiousity, hue, saturation, and luma can be areas to look for inconsistent maths. Natural image statistics (investigation of regularities inherent to natural images) can be a massive boon also as well as our numerous and well understood optics laws.

Digital Image Forensics has come a long way. Art tools aren't developed to create forgeries. In fact, they're quite lousy at it in an instance where a lot of information is known about the photos being taken. Even minor changes by the camera itself can be quantified with maths.

There was a time at the start of the digital age where image forensics looked like it was deep trouble ;the wide availability of video equipment meant that broadcast attacks on video security scanners and similar things became a real concern, and catch up was needed. Such scanners can now recognize when they are recieving a rogue signal even if their network doesn't just by analyzing the image presented to it.

There have been large numbers of statistical investigations into how images are captured and formed with surprisingly good results. Classification accuracies in studies reaching 90% is not uncommon, though this number can drop considerbly with some techniques out the wild ... the point is we're getting a lot better at it, and the danger of new approaches rumbling high profile fakery is quite high.
edit on 7-3-2013 by Pinke because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 01:40 PM by Pinke
reply to post by jeep3r



Woops!

ahaha sorry jeep3r ... I thought you were referring to ELA when I wrote rambles above regarding noise!

Annnnnnnnnyway ... I'm not an expert. I'm an unimportant amateur person that lives in a card board box perhaps ... but short answer in my completely pointless opinion is that images can be faked incredibly well with time, effort, and science.

I don't believe it's easy to make a large dataset like Curiousity though that will stand the test of time. Replicating all the properties of a camera in a single image isn't so hard, or making a fire and forget youtube video or internet image ... but a well documented and large photo record with multiple cameras ... I doubt NASA would be using photoshop style tools to do this.

In my completely unqualified opinion they would be safer artificially generating the entire record of images than trying to perfect dozens and dozens of composites. If they comping they have an aweso workflow and a lot of workers.

Note: I can't be bothered editing above post ... mistakes are likely ... but it is nap time. Stupid insomnias.


reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 04:10 PM by ArMaP
reply to post by Pinke



You're right, the camera/lens characteristics also have to be taken into account, that's why those characteristics are published by NASA (or who makes the cameras), but, in my defence, I said (say) "nobody would notice", I didn't say it would be undetectable.


reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 05:45 PM by SideWynder
reply to post by jeep3r



Nice post Jeep, forgive me for not reading the whole post, just the first page, but I would like to answer you question in regards to if I saw anything worth a closer look,

The answer is yes, 2. the first being what is called "the cauldren" To my untrained eye it does look like a "rock" but one that has been shaped and weathered by water. this on earth would be mundane, But on mars, it might be interesting to note how liquid water acted on such a "rock" and what if anything did the water leave behind? IE. fossils, shells, etc..

The second one I would be interested in taking a closer look at would be what is called "the ornament" again to my untrained eye it appears to be at least two very differant types of "rock" in very close proximity, the more abundant rock seems to be a type of rough weathered sandstone, the other seems to be several large chunks of a smoother harder stone with either some very interesting "weathering" patterns that look almost like cables, or possibly "roots" on the back of one of the smooth hard stones. many questions on what that may be..

I think that there may be several reasons that theese "curiousities" have not been (at least publicly) explored further. But my two pet theories are...

1, They have been scrutinized closely and have been found to be "artificial" or other than naturaly occuring.. So therefore we have the "conspiracy" cover up thing going on... Or.....

2. They have been scrutinized closely, and have been dertermined to be of natural origins and are so mundane under close inspection, that it was thought it would be better to just keep the original fuzzy/blurry pics available to the public in order to keep up the "intrest" IE, "Hey, that looks just like my grandads old edsel!!" Well it did from a distance, but up close I can see its just a rock..

If you wanted to keep public intrest and support in something, Would you want to expose all those "edsels" as just "rocks" or would you rather keep the interest going???
edit on 7-3-2013 by SideWynder because: spelling, am tired, if I missed more, sorry.
edit on 7-3-2013 by SideWynder because: adding letters,again am tired, sorry.
edit on 7-3-2013 by SideWynder because: moved stuff
edit on 7-3-2013 by SideWynder because: I am not as articulate as I thought I was..
edit on 7-3-2013 by SideWynder because: ok, so I'm a freaking moron!!! deal with it... I have to!



reply posted on 7-3-2013 @ 11:41 PM by jeep3r
Originally posted by ArMaP

Yes, but as you can see
here, my second attempt above doesn't trigger any alarm bells on the fotoforensics.com site.


I fear that you now belong to a very suspicious breed of people capable of advanced image manipulation! From now on we'll have to doublecheck every image of yours and compare with the originals from NASA/JPL ...

P.S.: Would you mind telling us how exactly you went about to achieve that result? Which tools did you use? Thanks in advance ... !
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