Curiosity: "Thought-Experiment", Image Compilation PLUS a few Perhaps 'Disturbing' Questions, page 1

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Topic started on 4-3-2013 @ 07:12 PM by jeep3r

Most of you probably know by now just how much I'm fascinated by Curiosity's imagery of Gale Crater (especially that of Rocknest) and I thought I'd give it another try to fight for your attention on this!

Actually, I'd like to propose a quick "thought-experiment" regarding some of the more compelling pics in that area.

THE EXPERIMENT

Below you will find a selection of images that apparently show rocks or rock formations that are (in some way) quite different from their surroundings. They have been debated in several posts and threads, because of their distinct nature. Now, imagine you were in command of Curiosity's every move, as part of the science team at JPL. Please look closely at those images again and ask yourself: would you decide to make Curiosity investigate one or more of these 'rocks' more in detail? Would you want to acquire close-up MAHLI images (or much better MastCam-views) of any of those features? If yes, which ones would justify a closer look and why? If no, what's the reason for not checking them in detail?

BACKGROUND:
I don't want to spoil the fun but guess what?! The public image archives of NASA/JPL (that allegedly contain all images) DON'T PROVIDE A SINGLE CLOSE-UP OF ANY OF THE IMAGES BELOW ... and I (personally) don't believe this is so because all these 'rocks' are so boring (geologically speaking) or have - accidentally - been 'overseen'.

The lack of close-up views is even more incredible when looking at the very first image. In a previous post of mine, I came to the conclusion that this particular 'rock formation' is located slightly to the east of what NASA calls 'Point Lake' (see here for an overview-map). And what's even more disturbing: Curiosity's traverse-path led directly through the area of this (at least to me) very, very interesting 'rock'. Curiosity was literally standing right next to it (as revealed by the rover-tracks imaged on Sol 157. Yet, for some reason, there's no close-up view available.

Obviously, nobody at NASA/JPL came up with the idea to use the MastCam or MAHLI instrument for closer inspection! Or they did. But in that case, NASA's so-called 'public archive' wouldn't be so transparent after all and rather serve as a platform for very selective publishing of acquired imagery. It's just a thought, but judge for yourself! I, for one, find this whole situation quite telling (and annoying)!

Apologies for the rant!

But again: please let me know what you would do if you could determine where Curiosity went and which close-ups were to be acquired. And in case these 'rocks' are not of any interest to you, please also let me/us know why?

Thanks!

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And here go the IMAGES (NOTE: Some pics have been contrast-enhanced and slightly sharpened. The original NASA/JPL images, however, are also linked below in case you prefer a direct comparison):

Image 1 ('The Boat')

Same 'rock' in a larger context:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 2 ('The Shovel')

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 3 ('The Fossil') -> discovered by ATS-Member Arken

Same 'formation' in a larger context:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image (Part A)
Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image (Part B)

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Image 4 ('The Scrap Plates')

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 5 ('The Cross-Section')
Formation in context:

Rocks on left side in close-up view:

Rocks on right side in close-up view:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image (Part A)
Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image (Part B)

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Image 6 'The Triangle' -> first spotted by ATS-Member Nerbot

Same 'rock' in a larger context:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 7 'The Cauldron'

Close-Up View:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 8 'The Pipeline'

Close-Up View:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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Image 9 'The Ornament' -> spotted by ATS-Member Bilk22

Close-Up View:

Click here for the original NASA/JPL Image

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And, finally, here go my previous threads/posts which are more or less 'related' to the subject discussed above (just FYI):

- Potential 'Artifacts' discussed in a Video
- Discussion of the Rocknest Panorama
- Strange Shipwreck-Like Feature
- Strange Rocks Post 1
- Strange Rocks Post 2
- Strange Rocks Post 3

(Note: when clicking on 'posts', please wait until page has fully loaded and scrolled to post)

edit on 4-3-2013 by jeep3r because: removed color-tags

edit on 4-3-2013 by jeep3r because: text

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:26 PM by ArMaP

Originally posted by jeep3r
Now, imagine you were in command of Curiosity's every move, as part of the science team at JPL. Please look closely at those images again and ask yourself: would you decide to make Curiosity investigate one or more of these 'rocks' more in detail? Would you want to acquire close-up MAHLI images (or much better MastCam-views) of any of those features? If yes, which ones would justify a closer look and why? If no, what's the reason for not checking them in detail?

That depends, if I didn't had anything else to do may I would move Curiosity to study those rocks, but if I had a mission to accomplish and I didn't know if I had the time to do it I wouldn't bother with those rocks.

PS: as you noticed, the colour tags do not like 'apostrophes'.

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:38 PM by jeep3r

Originally posted by ArMaP
That depends, if I didn't had anything else to do may I would move Curiosity to study those rocks, but if I had a mission to accomplish and I didn't know if I had the time to do it I wouldn't bother with those rocks.

I agree, ArMaP, at least 'in principle'!

But the point I'm making is that Curiosity ...

a) was very close to one or more of those rocks and yet didn't image them in detail
b) did tons of close-ups of other things, that are (at least to us) absolutely boring

So, doing science is key, no discussion about it and I would also get Curiosity down to Yellowknife Bay to drill and do all the analysis & data gathering as fast as possible. But still: why did Curiosity take the time for thousands of other images that are so obviously lacking any interesting features ...

P.S.: And I have learned: the color tags actually do work just fine!

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:42 PM by Aleister

Curiosity is almost like a very slow pic-upload 'naut (astro, cosmo, chinao) who has to decide which rock to pick up or turn over. In hindsight maybe some people at NASA and JPL wish they had taken a closer look at the "fossil spine" that Arken found, or one or two of the other rocks people have pointed out. And like many other people, I'm surprised at the low quality out-of-focus picture detail when you zoom in on these objects.

On a related topic, does anyone know if Curiosity's number one computer has been fixed or is the jury still out (out looking for fossils!) Thanks.

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:49 PM by Tardacus

anyone who who doesn`t see anything unusual or interesting enough about those rocks to go take a closer look at them, shouldn`t be driving a mars rover.
If you saw those rocks on a beach and weren`t the least big curious to take a closer look at them then you shouldn`t be driving a mars rover.
When we send rovers to uncharted and unexplored parts of the universe we need people driving them who have a natural curiousity to explore and examine things.

If we are going to stick to a pre planned exploration route and time table then we don`t need real people involved,just program the drone to follow a time table and a route. The whole point of having humans involved in exploring is to be able to make on the spot decisions and changes when something unexpected or unusual pops up.

analytical minded rocket scientist are the worst possible choice of people to have as explorers.let them do what they are best at, getting the ship or drone to it`s destination.once we have arrived their job is done and people with true explorer spirit should take over the exploring and discovery phase.

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:51 PM by ArMaP

reply to post by jeep3r

You are right in one thing: they have turned back at least in one case (I don't remember what Sol it was), so it looks like they are not in a hurry to reach the mission target.

Also, an interesting thing about the publishing of the photos (and other data) on the Planetary Data System; they wrote this:

Release 1 does not include data from the MAHLI, MARDI, or Mastcam instruments. These instrument teams have not yet delivered data products to PDS.

Some documents in the MSL archives are awaiting clearance by JPL Document Review and/or the JPL Import/Export Control Office. They will be posted online as soon as clearance has been received, and announced on this web site.

PDS

Why aren't the Mastcam, MAHLI and MARDI images published yet? And what are those documents awaiting clearance?

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 07:54 PM by ArMaP

reply to post by Tardacus

I don't think there's a specific person that decides what the rover should or should not do, from what I have read the team decides what to do based on the photos taken the day before (or just some hours before).

But I may be wrong.

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 08:26 PM by Northisland

Well, those are interesting images. But, since there are amazing similar formations naturally formed on earth the rational conclusion if on mars is to do other tests and research instead?

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 08:45 PM by jeep3r

Originally posted by ArMaP

Also, an interesting thing about the publishing of the photos (and other data) on the Planetary Data System; they wrote this:

Release 1 does not include data from the MAHLI, MARDI, or Mastcam instruments. These instrument teams have not yet delivered data products to PDS.

That could actually be the answer for a lot of our questions and doubts. Good find & thanks for bringing this to our attention, ArMaP.

Personally, I think that even 'if' rocket-scientists or rather 'analytical' people have a say on what Curiosity should do, they (too) would investigate - at least - some of those rocks to see if it's more than just erosional features. And if it's really just 'natural' it may still be interesting to study such rocks from a geological point of view, I guess ...

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 09:58 PM by Aleister

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by jeep3r

You are right in one thing: they have turned back at least in one case (I don't remember what Sol it was), so it looks like they are not in a hurry to reach the mission target.

Also, an interesting thing about the publishing of the photos (and other data) on the Planetary Data System; they wrote this:

Release 1 does not include data from the MAHLI, MARDI, or Mastcam instruments. These instrument teams have not yet delivered data products to PDS.

Some documents in the MSL archives are awaiting clearance by JPL Document Review and/or the JPL Import/Export Control Office. They will be posted online as soon as clearance has been received, and announced on this web site.

PDS

Why aren't the Mastcam, MAHLI and MARDI images published yet? And what are those documents awaiting clearance?

It's likely most people here don't know about this data being held back from the public. Those are all important cameras, if I understand the post correctly, and may contain more images of the "spine", of "Hugo", and the other major features that have attracted people's attention here. ArMap, this data may be worth a thread by itself, so it can be more fully explored, please consider doing so. Thanks for this information.

edit on 4-3-2013 by Aleister because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 10:02 PM by Phage

reply to post by Aleister

It's likely most people here don't know about this data being held back from the public.

It isn't, obviously we have been seeing data from those instruments, including the "bones" from the MastCam. Data from those instruments is available here:
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

The statement is about the PDS site.

edit on 3/4/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 10:11 PM by Aleister

reply to post by Phage

I stand corrected. Thank you for not denying my ignorance.

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 10:38 PM by LordAdef

reply to post by jeep3r

Hi Jeep, good thread again.
I don't see the point of not stoping by and checking things out through out the journey! And the spot is nearby the path anyway.. I would actually check the perfect round formation on the left top corner of your ship picture (yep, I followed your last threads). Did you noticed that? Check out the original from NASA.

Very intriguing photo collection by the ats team. I may join soon

edit on 4-3-2013 by LordAdef because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 4-3-2013 @ 10:45 PM by LordAdef

reply to post by ArMaP

Hi Armap,
Good point. But... What's the point then? What if some are not natural? Would nasa just miss it for the journey sake? The fact is no one can affirm they are not. At least the area stands out with a group of curious objects (rocks or whatever).

reply posted on 5-3-2013 @ 02:42 AM by Arken

reply to post by jeep3r

Hi jeep3r. Good thread and very good questions that cast shadows on the purpose and goals of this Mission.

Obviously, nobody at NASA/JPL came up with the idea to use the MastCam or MAHLI instrument for closer inspection! Or they did. But in that case, NASA's so-called 'public archive' wouldn't be so transparent after all and rather serve as a platform for very selective publishing of acquired imagery. It's just a thought, but judge for yourself! I, for one, find this whole situation quite telling (and annoying)!

My opinion is that NASA/JPL science team don't post publicly the entire shots/photo/images that they acquire from the Rover.

NASA/JPL science team is not (of course) a bunch of idiots, but very skilled researchers and scientists, and they already know those anomalies. They Detect, Study and Hush... in the dark, because "the things" up there are worst than we can imagine.

Most of the images are clearly photoshoped and they use the "true/false" colors of Mars like professionals to hide..."something".

S&F.

reply posted on 5-3-2013 @ 03:26 AM by ArMaP

Originally posted by Arken
Most of the images are clearly photoshoped and they use the "true/false" colors of Mars like professionals to hide..."something".

If the images were photoshoped nobody would notice it, and colours are irrelevant.

reply posted on 5-3-2013 @ 04:00 AM by Arken

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Arken
Most of the images are clearly photoshoped and they use the "true/false" colors of Mars like professionals to hide..."something".

If the images were photoshoped nobody would notice it, and colours are irrelevant.

Not so sure... "eraser tool" work at full power in NASA/JPL laboratories.

edit on 5-3-2013 by Arken because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 5-3-2013 @ 05:24 AM by jeep3r

Originally posted by LordAdef

Hi Jeep, good thread again (...) I would actually check the perfect round formation on the left top corner of your ship picture (yep, I followed your last threads). Did you noticed that? Check out the original from NASA.

Thanks, LordAdef, also for your reference to my previous posts! Concerning the 'perfect round formation' I'm not quite sure whether I really noticed that ...

In any case, I just think there are tons of interesting 'rocks' out there and the above examples are just a selection. Also, I didn't include the infamous 'Hugo' image and there are lots of other pics that could have been posted as well in this context.

But ultimately, I stick to what I previously said: Rocknest looks like a real junkyard!

reply posted on 5-3-2013 @ 05:44 AM by jeep3r

Originally posted by Arken
My opinion is that NASA/JPL science team don't post publicly the entire shots/photo/images that they acquire from the Rover.

NASA/JPL science team is not (of course) a bunch of idiots, but very skilled researchers and scientists, and they already know those anomalies. They Detect, Study and Hush... in the dark, because "the things" up there are worst than we can imagine. Most of the images are clearly photoshoped and they use the "true/false" colors of Mars like professionals to hide..."something". S&F.