Hiding homeopathic placebos behind deceptive titles

That latest from "Big Placebo" is to avoid the stigma of their products being actually identified as homeopathy by labelling them as "supplements".

Homeopathy is, of course, nothing more then placebo therapy - but who wants to pay out money for placebos?? apart from the faithful folowers of het cult of course - they will pay for anything.

But the real money lies in fleecing the unsuspecting public - the sheer volume of sales of homeopathic placebo products makes billions of $$'s a year.

So how to keep sales up in the face of the truth?? Easy -

Rebranding products from homeopathic remedies to dietary supplements has helped one California entrepreneur boost sales by more than 80%.

- just tell lies

I am sorry but I have to strongly disagree. Are some homeopathic remedies bunk? Sure. Is there problems with lack of or miss-education? Absolutely, but i trust homeopathy over big pharma any day!

reply to post by calstorm


You are perfectly entitled to take placebo therapy if you want.

As long as you are fully informed then I have no trouble with that.

But this practice by Big Placebo is dishonest and deliberately deceptive - they are DELIBERATELY trying to DECEIVE - by hiding the fact that their products are homeopathic and therefore placebos.

Big Pharma's many sins do not justify dishonest behaviour from Big Placebo.

My 7 year old was coughing and hacking for like a week..no fever..really nothing else other than the coughing. It was so bad it would wake her up in the middle of the night. While at the store I decided to check out some cough meds for children..I usually don't like giving the kids any meds at all so I stood there for I swear what seemed like hours looking at each drug..comparing the boxes and doses and amounts..finally on the bottom shelf..WAAY down there just inches from the floor there were these little purple boxes of all-natural cough meds. I picked it up read the entire box..put it down..picked it up and finally after another 5 minutes or so I put in the cart..along side with some other better known cough syrup.

I got home and gave her the syrup and she quite coughing immediately...didn't cough again either after only one dose..sure she could have just gotten over it naturally but before I gave it to her she was still coughing pretty bad.
Now I recommend it to everyone.

The syrup is:
ZARBEES childrens nighttime cough syrup
ingred. Proprietary blend of dark honeys, water, ascorbic acid, natural flavor, tartaric acid, malic acid, zinc gluconate, mesg-pg (plant extract to preserve freshness), melatonin

I love the stuff and feel like it DID work. I know some stuff is probably bunk..but I won't discount all products just because they say homeopathic or all natural..

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
But this practice by Big Placebo is dishonest and deliberately deceptive - they are DELIBERATELY trying to DECEIVE - by hiding the fact that their products are homeopathic and therefore placebos.

Big Pharma's many sins do not justify dishonest behaviour from Big Placebo.

As a skeptic, I love to test claims. So I did.

I found this Homeopathic Remedy below to be exactly as the industry defines it: A differing method of sourcing and differing nomenclature for dilution. It was the same exact ingredients and dosage as the oligopolies sold, except at 28% of the price of the oligopoly brand.

Why are we forcing this extreme definition of Homeopathy when that does not appear to be how the Industry itself defines the term? Ethically should we not let the Industry define its own terms? What I found in the Skeptic Dictionary did not match what I found in actual drug store shelves.

Not all homeopathy relies on the “Placebo effect” that is just wrong.

That said however I would say that even if it does only work because of its placebo effect the who cares, not all homeopathy will work for everyone but if it puts of your back chronic back pain then who cares if its down to the placebo effect.

Originally posted by TheEthicalSkeptic

As a skeptic, I love to test claims. So I did.

I found this Homeopathic Remedy below to be exactly as the industry defines it: A differing method of sourcing and differing nomenclature for dilution. It was the same exact ingredients and dosage as the oligopolies sold, except at 28% of the price of the oligopoly brand.

Why are we forcing this extreme definition of Homeopathy when that does not appear to be how the Industry itself defines the term? Ethically should we not let the Industry define its own terms? What I found in the Skeptic Dictionary did not match what I found in actual drug store shelves.

That is not a homeopathic remedy - in fact it is a case of deceptive advertising in the opposite sense - claimg to be homeopathic when it is not!!

A homeopathic remedy, by defintion, is one wher the active ingredient is HIGHLY DILUTED - there's no need to take my word for it, or go to teh skeptics Dictionary - this is from The Society of Homeopaths:

Homeopathy is a system of medicine which involves treating the individual with highly diluted substances, given mainly in tablet form, with the aim of triggering the body’s natural system of healing.

anything that is diluted 1:10 is not "highly diluted"!!

So what is "highly diluted"?

Again from the Society of Homeopaths:

Scientists frequently refer to homeopathic medicines as being diluted ‘beyond Avogadro’s number’. This means that they have been diluted beyond 10(-23) – the final concentration at which molecules of the original substance would still be present. Confusingly several different expressions are used to refer to dilutions beyond this point: ‘high dilutions’, ‘ultrahigh dilutions’, ‘ultramolecular dilutions’ and ‘UHDs’; in homeopathic language they may also be referred to as ‘high potencies’.

Homeopathic medicines of the strength 12c and above are in this ultramolecular range. This is why homeopathy attracts such controversy, with sceptics saying that homeopathic medicines are ‘nothing but water’.

So the SOH says that "high" dilutions are 12c or above. 12c means it has been diluted 1:100 12 times - that means that if you start with 100% of het substance you now have 1/10^24 or less concentration of it in the final "product" - which effectively means none.

I would characterise the assay you show as being an example of naturopathy - the use of "natural" ingredients that are not processed medicines. These do contain real substances - many medicines are, of course, derived from natural substances - aspirin gtom bark is perhaps the most famous.

there is nothing particularly suspicious about naturopathy - however it is sometimes prone to variable quality and doseage, and, apparently to being mis-labelled as homeopathy!!

There is NO rational science/reason behind homeopathy.

The fact that homeopathic remedies/medicine are openly sold and recommended by doctors is in fact sort of a scandal. It's total bunk-science.

ON THE OTHER HAND, the "placebo effect" is indeed a scientific fact. When companies do tests with one group being only placebos, they often see 35%-45% success treating a condition WITH PLACEBOS.

A real medicine is THEN approved when it shows as little as 5% more results over the placebo group.
Means, the "real" medicine is often only a tiny bit "better" as compared to as if you treat someone with placebos.

reply to post by flexy123


I think you will find its more than 5% the process of getting drug approval is astonishing by your logic paracetamol is only 5% better at getting rid of my headache than a cup of herbal tea.

So the SOH says that "high" dilutions are 12c or above. 12c means it has been diluted 1:100 12 times - that means that if you start with 100% of het substance you now have 1/10^24 or less concentration of it in the final "product" - which effectively means none.

there is nothing particularly suspicious about naturopathy - however it is sometimes prone to variable quality and doseage, and, apparently to being mis-labelled as homeopathy!!

Ahh, so Homeopathy does not actually exist on our drug store shelves after all - thanks for clearing that up. It appears that the extreme rancor over the issue was overblown and prompted me to waste my time.

Product mislabeling. Thanks!

It appears that the extreme rancor over the issue was overblown and prompted me to waste my time.

Product mislabeling. Thanks!

And this begs the question then Aly, should not ethically this mislabeling pandemic indeed then be our #1 concern and cause for activism?

If you read teh article I linked to in the OP you will see that highly diluted homeopathic "remedies" AER appearing on drugstore shwlves.

And yes, deceptive labeling should be stamped on wherever.

Especially when there is an industry conspiracy to do it deliberately rather than "genuine" mistakes......which I guess might happen too.

In this case it is Big Placebo doing it. By all means highlight other cases in appropriate fora.

Okay, I have to disagree with this. I have a cat who contracted calicivirus (from a visiting cat) 4 years ago and he was not a pretty sight. A very sick boy, poor thing. I took him to the vet who wanted to charge $125 just to look at him (no way) and then to another one who didn't charge alot to look at him but wanted to take most of teeth out because he said he had dental problems and not calicivirus. I was so frustrated I refused. I have used homeopathy before and have had good results but my cat was very sick with mouth sores, drooling blood, smelly fur, etc..I felt it better to take to a vet. My mistake.

I looked up the symptons in an animal homeopathy book and it was confirmed to be calicivirus. I gave him the recommended homeopathic dosage (mercurious solubilis 30c), force fed him and wiped him down with pet wipes to keep him cool (he was running a fever). At first it seemed he was doing dramatically worse but then the next day he was up and drinking on his own and sniffing his food. It took a few days for him to recover but when he did he was energetic and happy.

It is said that homeopathy deals with the life force inside you and finds a way to balance what's wrong with the body. It does take time and patience, something most people don't have, but I have to say it works on pets at the very least. I had another cat who ate something toxic, another severe case, and giving her a homeopathic remedy stopped it cold.

To those of you who say it doesn't work, have you really tried it yourself?

By the way: My cat has all his teeth.

Originally posted by texasgirl

To those of you who say it doesn't work, have you really tried it yourself?

Yes - I drink water every day.

Feline Calicivirus lasts about 5 days - the deathe raet is 60-70% - which means that 30-40% of cats survive. There is nothing in your story that makes me suspect the homeopathic remedy helped at all.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by texasgirl

To those of you who say it doesn't work, have you really tried it yourself?

Yes - I drink water every day.

Feline Calicivirus lasts about 5 days - the deathe raet is 60-70% - which means that 30-40% of cats survive. There is nothing in your story that makes me suspect the homeopathic remedy helped at all.

Fair enough. I have used homeopathy on my other cats over the years with success so it has made a believer out of me. If anything, I have saved a mound of money in vet bills.

As for drinking water every day, are you saying it makes you feel better? Or is water a placebo?

Originally posted by texasgirl

As for drinking water every day, are you saying it makes you feel better? Or is water a placebo?

I am saying that I take every homeopathic remedy every day, and always have, as has every other person who has ever lived.

homeopathically speaking water is just dinosaur poo 30 or maybe 50C.....

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
That latest from "Big Placebo" is to avoid the stigma of their products being actually identified as homeopathy by labelling them as "supplements".

Homeopathy is, of course, nothing more then placebo therapy - but who wants to pay out money for placebos?? apart from the faithful folowers of het cult of course - they will pay for anything.

But the real money lies in fleecing the unsuspecting public - the sheer volume of sales of homeopathic placebo products makes billions of $$'s a year.

So how to keep sales up in the face of the truth?? Easy -

Rebranding products from homeopathic remedies to dietary supplements has helped one California entrepreneur boost sales by more than 80%.

- just tell lies

Actually, it has nothing to do with selling more product.

In the US homeopathics have to be manufactured under a drug license. Supplements are not manufactured under a drug license (heavy monitoring by FDA). It costs much less to operate under the guise of the dietary supplementation laws than it does to manufacture anything under a drug license.

In fact the increasing demands of maintaining appropriate drug licenses to manufacture homeopathics have gotten so stringent and onerous, that it has forced most of the small players out of the game. A lot of homeopathic companies are using an independent 3rd party/ private label company to manufacture their homeopathic preparations for them. It has become increasingly expensive, so some in the industry throw a herb or two in the formula to make it a supplement, and then they only have to deal with GMPs.

I worked in this industry for 6 years, and most of the small players and half or more of the large ones have all turned to private labeling or have just become supplement companies. They can't afford to stay in business otherwise.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Homeopathy is, of course, nothing more then placebo therapy - but who wants to pay out money for placebos?? apart from the faithful folowers of het cult of course - they will pay for anything.

[/url]

No it is not, it is vibrational therapy, in which a similar vibration to the ailment is given to stimulate the body's entire system to create a remedy for itself. Does it work for everyone, no.

No one has ever died from homeopathy. Big pharma on the other hand kills, yes, out right kills, 100k people a year in the US due to prescription errors, and the AMA establishment kills 200k plus a year, by their own admission. World wide, that number is over a million. Vioxx, thalidimide are fun examples of non homeopathic treatments.

Originally posted by crankyoldman

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Homeopathy is, of course, nothing more then placebo therapy - but who wants to pay out money for placebos?? apart from the faithful folowers of het cult of course - they will pay for anything.

[/url]

No it is not, it is vibrational therapy, in which a similar vibration to the ailment is given to stimulate the body's entire system to create a remedy for itself. Does it work for everyone, no.

No one has ever died from homeopathy. Big pharma on the other hand kills, yes, out right kills, 100k people a year in the US due to prescription errors, and the AMA establishment kills 200k plus a year, by their own admission. World wide, that number is over a million. Vioxx, thalidimide are fun examples of non homeopathic treatments.

This is mainly why I feel better using homeopathy on my animals. I also work with animals and I see the illnesses in pets that are taking drugs like Prednisolone, Rimaydl, Baytril...and it's not helping. A client's cat lost his vision from taking Baytril. (Baytril can also cause seizures, elevated liver enzymes, vomiting) Another client's dog had a bad reaction to Leukeran where he couldn't breathe.

If homeopathy doesn't work, it just doesn't work. And it most likely doesn't work because of improper dosage or the symptons and behavior doesn't fit the kind used.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by texasgirl

As for drinking water every day, are you saying it makes you feel better? Or is water a placebo?

I am saying that I take every homeopathic remedy every day, and always have, as has every other person who has ever lived.

homeopathically speaking water is just dinosaur poo 30 or maybe 50C.....

I hardly consider processed foods, fast food and restaurant food homeopathic. Just saying...