Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

heisenbergs uncertainty principle whats that?

page: 1
2

log in

join

posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 10:26 AM
link   
Looks like the age old Heisenberg uncertainty principle is finally under fire.

www.scienceworldreport.com...




The Uncertainty Principle itself is used in quantum mechanics. It's any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle can be known simultaneously. This is why the direct measurement of the wavefunction has long seemed impossible--certain properties of a system could only be known poorly if other related properties were known with precision. The newest findings from researchers challenge this long-held belief, though. Previously, researchers only were able to use a technique called quantum tomography to measure the information in these states indirectly. Yet the new technique that this experiment employed allowed them to measure information directly.


They must have known it was just a spooky wave interaction decades ago why wait to disclose now?

edit on 4-3-2013 by Cauliflower because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 11:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Cauliflower
 

Thanks. Looks like an interesting paper, though not interesting enough to spend $32 to read it, but you can get a good idea of what they did from the diagram in the following link. Here's the nature photonics link to the article:

Full characterization of polarization states of light via direct measurement

Note the synopsis doesn't even mention the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, though they do say the work has applications in foundational quantum mechanics. I don't get the impression they've destroyed Heisenberg uncertainty, though apparently they claim to have put a small dent in it according to the university of Rochester page which the OP source appears to have mostly either plagiarized or reproduced with permission.

Will this be enough to build the fictional "Heisenberg compensator" in Star Trek's transporter technology? I doubt it, but could it be a small step in that direction?



posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 11:27 AM
link   
I wonder which implications this might have regarding the Doppelspalt experiment and wave particle duality itself.

My guess is, being able to measure more parameters with more precision in quantum mechanics will only lead to even more inexplicable phenomena being observed, up to the point where we will have to question reality and how we perceive it.



posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 11:28 AM
link   
Thanks, this shows the Uncertainty Principle is pretty much dead in the water. It's been disproved by physical experiment in at least two ways I know of.. Supposedly Kennard's version still remains, but the theory ends up as a pretty bland statement with that version.

This means all those silly quantum fairytales about human measurements magically changing reality just through observation alone are false and were never even true in theory.

This is the other 'Uncertainty killer' I know from last year:

www.scientificamerican.com...


What Einstein's E=mc2 is to relativity theory, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is to quantum mechanics—not just a profound insight, but also an iconic formula that even non-physicists recognize. The principle holds that we cannot know the present state of the world in full detail, let alone predict the future with absolute precision. It marks a clear break from the classical deterministic view of the universe.

Yet the uncertainty principle comes in two superficially similar formulations that even many practicing physicists tend to confuse. Werner Heisenberg's own version is that in observing the world, we inevitably disturb it. And that is wrong, as a research team at the Vienna University of Technology has now vividly demonstrated.


Nature Physics: www.nature.com...


The uncertainty principle generally prohibits simultaneous measurements of certain pairs of observables and forms the basis of indeterminacy in quantum mechanics1. Heisenberg’s original formulation, illustrated by the famous γ-ray microscope, sets a lower bound for the product of the measurement error and the disturbance2. Later, the uncertainty relation was reformulated in terms of standard deviations3, 4, 5, where the focus was exclusively on the indeterminacy of predictions, whereas the unavoidable recoil in measuring devices has been ignored6. A correct formulation of the error–disturbance uncertainty relation, taking recoil into account, is essential for a deeper understanding of the uncertainty principle, as Heisenberg’s original relation is valid only under specific circumstances7, 8, 9, 10. A new error–disturbance relation, derived using the theory of general quantum measurements, has been claimed to be universally valid11, 12, 13, 14. Here, we report a neutron-optical experiment that records the error of a spin-component measurement as well as the disturbance caused on another spin-component. The results confirm that both error and disturbance obey the new relation but violate the old one in a wide range of an experimental parameter.
edit on 4-3-2013 by yampa because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 12:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by yampa
Thanks, this shows the Uncertainty Principle is pretty much dead in the water. It's been disproved by physical experiment in at least two ways I know of.. Supposedly Kennard's version still remains, but the theory ends up as a pretty bland statement with that version.

This means all those silly quantum fairytales about human measurements magically changing reality just through observation alone are false and were never even true in theory.



I'm not so sure about the statement that the Uncertainty Principle is dead. Admittedly, I haven't read the journal article, only the news summary linked to by the OP, but it seems to me that the researchers cheated by splitting the light into two streams. They measured one aspect of one stream and another aspect of the other. While that does raise some interesting points it does nothing to disprove the Uncertainty Principle.



posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 08:40 PM
link   
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


In the abstract they claim the


direct measurement procedure is applicable to general (that is, potentially mixed) quantum states.


So essentially all those "potentially mixed" quantum states can be directly observed in a single procedure at a specific time.

We don't get to play with these research toys but it sounds like an expansion of classic understanding (for somebody).

I'm checking out the Star Trek Heisenberg compensator for clues.

en.memory-alpha.org...




While trying to devise a way to transport holographic matter off the holodeck without it disintegrating instantly, the idea was put forth that decoupling the Heisenberg compensators might let the matter reform normally, although the suggestion was used as a stalling tactic against Professor James Moriarty, and the idea had never actually been tried before. (TNG: "Ship in a Bottle")


J Moriarty a la Sherlock Holmes no doubt, me thinks this might be transporting towards the philosophy forum.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 08:04 AM
link   
reply to post by H1ght3chHippie
 


The current experiment involved the polarization states of light. They were able to isolate the wave functions while they remained in their superposed state using two birefringement crystals.

There is a similar superposition used in some *secure* types of cryptographs, in those ciphers the plain text message is lost after a sort of entanglement that could be as simple as Oring with a random text padding.

I agree with you that at some level *if* there is a superposition with a non ordered truely random "phenomena" the physicists will be unable to sort it. In other cases we may not know for decades if they have devised a method to crack gods code or not because the exploit might have classified uses.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 08:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by avocadoshag

I'm not so sure about the statement that the Uncertainty Principle is dead. Admittedly, I haven't read the journal article, only the news summary linked to by the OP, but it seems to me that the researchers cheated by splitting the light into two streams. They measured one aspect of one stream and another aspect of the other. While that does raise some interesting points it does nothing to disprove the Uncertainty Principle.

Yes a correct point there.
Uncertainity principle is still valid in this universe



posted on Mar, 21 2013 @ 04:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by Angelic Resurrection
Uncertainity principle is still valid in this universe


I'm glad you specified..



posted on Mar, 21 2013 @ 04:42 AM
link   
Correct me if I'm wrong but the experiment shows that it may be possible to read polarisiation spin state of a photon.

This is great for the possiblity of Quantum information sharing as photons would suit this application but I cant see how the idea would transfer to a heisenberg compensator in the Star Trek sense.

This method uses solids (i.e Quartz/Other Crystsals) as part of the measurement process so unless humans suddenly can be made "massless," this is highly unlikely to provide popular as there would be a high likelyhood of quantum scattering or "smushing" of the object involved once it's mass/energy passed a certain threshold.


It reminds me a bit of the "we can teleport a photon" news.

It appears that at the Quantum level, one photon is a subjective event of the locality whereas anything more complex ( A molecule, a gas, an apple or a car) suddenly becomes an averaged out effect with almost infentisimal intricacy of associated information needed to be transfered/teleported/observed.

Human memory seems to maintain an almost ethereal quantum state so even if we can start measuring solids with solids, the person who's quantum state has been measured using this technique would just be facsimilie of the original...possibly a brain dead zombification of the orignal teleporter.






edit on 21-3-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2013 @ 06:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by Jukiodone


Human memory seems to maintain an almost ethereal quantum state so even if we can start measuring solids with solids, the person who's quantum state has been measured using this technique would just be facsimilie of the original...possibly a brain dead zombification of the orignal teleporter.


the standard model still barely recognises that the photon is a spinning particle and you are talking about teleporting humans? I think we have a long way to go..
edit on 21-3-2013 by yampa because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2013 @ 09:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by Jukiodone


This method uses solids (i.e Quartz/Other Crystsals) as part of the measurement process so unless humans suddenly can be made "massless," this is highly unlikely to provide popular as there would be a high likelyhood of quantum scattering or "smushing" of the object involved once it's mass/energy passed a certain threshold.

These singularity thresholds are a stumbling block and the
physics of the other side are as yet unknown





new topics

top topics



 
2

log in

join



atslive.com

hi-def

low-def