What is TRUE freedom?

More and more people are buying into this idea that "freedom from desire" is true freedom, but these people seem to be the same ones talking about "surrendering/accepting" and allowing anything to happen. This is slave mentality. There is a purpose for these human emotions and desire to be occurring this is what gives PERSONALITY to the human body - without it , the human body would be nothing but a dead zombie. Look at all of the life in nature and how each different species acts in their own way.... the birds, the squirrels, they are living NATURAL like we used to following their hearts (emotions/desires).

The only difference is that we are human and we have the intellect to find a way to maximize peace and minimize pain and we can do this by having one basic rule "do what you will and do not force your will upon another or their belongs without their permission". You may think of Aleister Crowley, but I am NOT saying this is how people should live their life, I am saying this should be the BASIS and from there people are able to choose their way of life whether it be "Service to Self" or "Service to Others" or "any other philosophical view" (as long as it isn't forcing others to live by it). By having this rule as a basis to not force on another's will - it will help solve many conflicts, but as long as we are aggressive and controlling of other people rather than our OWN choices and life - then there will be more conflict than necessary.

To me, true freedom is independence, being able to support yourself and not relying on another for anything and not letting people keep controlling or relying on you; and "free-will" is simply "being able to make own's choices without another person's threat". For example, if a person says you have "Free-will" while putting a gun to someone's head saying "give me your money or die" that is NOT free-will, that is control and threatening, TRUE free-will does NOT have consequences of another person's threats but only NATURAL consequences, for example, if you put your hand on a stove you get burned. So this my view "do not force your will upon another - therefore do not be aggressive/controlling of others".

What is your view on all of this?

Freedom, to me, means more than free will. I don't have much of an explanation, but it is my belief that freedom cannot exist if there is a such thing as will, or control. Will always infringes on freedom in some way. It is my belief that freedom means that you are free from all control, including your own, which leads me to believe that control and will are illusions, because I believe in freedom and the existence of control, in any form, seems like a contradiction.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Will is desire and acting on the desire.

If you do not have a will then another person or power will have one for you. Those who do not have an inner dream are nothing but slaves to their surroundings.

"Will always infringes on freedom in some way."

If you are following your will and allowing another to follow theirs then how is freedom infringed? As long as one's will is not forced upon another or their property without agreement it is not "infringed", right? and if not how?

Freedom is something different to everyone, and I guess to most of us Freedom is Being able to have a job that you want and not being assigned one (USSR) or being able to travel from state to state without papers, Being able to have more than one child even if it is a girl first(China), or being able to go purchase something with out it being rationed (Cold War Europe), right to choose who we want to hang out with, to be able to Vote, being able to exspress your self (ATS) to own a home of your choosing, to take a vacation in another country (someday) being able to go hunting with out a Warden telling me what to shot (Germany).

I guess we all can add to the above list but to me the number one freedom that I like is the fact that my childeren can choose there own paths when the time come for them.

ABSOLUTE FREEDOM is a POWER for the inidividual. Free to live and do as he pleases.

Unfortunately, we lived in a SHARED world, where there are billions of us sharing the same space, who EQUALLY have the fullest right to absolute freedoms that you enjoy. But what if your freedoms collide and cause pain to his freedoms or vice versa?

Thus, we must always remember that that with power, comes responsibilities to others sharing our space, so that we may all CO-EXIST at least in peace if not in harmony, and enjoy true freedom that is responsible by both you and other around you.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Will is desire and acting on the desire.

If you do not have a will then another person or power will have one for you. Those who do not have an inner dream are nothing but slaves to their surroundings.

"Will always infringes on freedom in some way."

If you are following your will and allowing another to follow theirs then how is freedom infringed? As long as one's will is not forced upon another or their property without agreement it is not "infringed", right? and if not how?

edit on 3-3-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

Anything you do will impact your environment and the environment will have to adapt. Wills conflict each other. They infringe on freedom. We all have will, no doubt. But due to our limited intelligence, we possibly do not see it exactly for what it is; a manifestation of something bigger that we do not understand.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
But what if your freedoms collide and cause pain to his freedoms or vice versa?

I already talked about this:

"Do not force your will upon another or their property without their permission".

reply to post by smithjustinb


Animals are making it just fine (survival wise and freedom wise). The "environment" is a platform and doing what we want is the expression of humanity, the only potential problem is conflict (fighting/war) and that can easily be solved by not controlling others and letting them do what they wish (so OBVIOUSLY no killing, rape, etc which one will is forced upon another)..

Freedom is (among other things) living life in accordance with a principle, rather than with an instinct.

reply to post by BlueMule


Actually, I think it's "principles" that put RESTRICTIONS on people. To be WITHOUT "principles" and to act on instinct seems like human freedom to me. It makes perfect sense!

Now for actually order, it can't be "instincts" of one to be put upon the "instinct" of another other wise it can lead to pointless/unnecessary violent/conflict.

reply to post by arpgme


blah, blah, I demand freedom from your semantic knee-jerk nit-picking.

Maybe that's true freedom.

reply to post by arpgme

What is your view on all of this?

Your right!
I will add however dont be afraid to explore your possibilities to see what forum your are best empowered in. Try them all out whether thats pursing a path of serving humanity or serving youself try both out, see which one makes your strongeat and happiness. Try different codes of morality even, abstence of hedomism. Try no relationshiip, and relationships mongmony and Polyamory, see which one is for you. If you truely believe your own words then live them.

Originally posted by arpgme
More and more people are buying into this idea that "freedom from desire" is true freedom, but these people seem to be the same ones talking about "surrendering/accepting" and allowing anything to happen. This is slave mentality.

@ "freedom from desire" is true freedom

arpgme, when 1 views or evaluates what FREEDOM is, it appears to have many Subjective Points Of Views, associated with an individual or Groups outlook based on the perceptions of what the individual or groups feel it is to be free.

So the freedom being associated with being free of desire to 1 is one of many subjective outlooks on what freedom may really be. As shared in some of the previous threads the surrender/accepting and sit back and allow aspect seems associated with Souls/Spirits/Internal Energies here in their ( EVIRONMENT Suits to fit the Current environment or Location) Doing their best to interpret & interact here by being as HUMBLE-LOVING as their Vibrations can be, which 1 understands and respects for many including 1 have/has been @ that point, which can and usually does adjust with Experience and so the experiences upgrade that type of mentality eventually to the understanding that YES Humble shall 1 offer the my hand in PEACE but ... With HOPE the who my hand is EXTENDED to will in return extend their hand in PEACE as well. And if not transmitted and accepted that way then 1 must ACCEPT the potentials for other non humble outcomes. Again comes with Experiences in the PHASES of Life and Death WITHIN EXISTENCE. Its Like how a Young Soul/Spirit/Internal ENERGY Matures/Learns from Mistakes ... Mistakes made by being totally Peaceful and thinking this would bring forth the best Positive Outcomes 100% of the time, even if it worked in most phases in some it WASNT appreciated and so then 1 .. Learned This way the Slave mentality is refined and better understood by these Soul/Spirit/Internal ENERGIES as they gain more experience and so then they can better Function / Operate when encountering Energies that may try to take advantage of their PEACEFUL/HUMBLE -innocent- approaches. Or enslave them

Originally posted by arpgme
There is a purpose for these human emotions and desire to be occurring this is what gives PERSONALITY to the human body - without it , the human body would be nothing but a dead zombie. Look at all of the life in nature and how each different species acts in their own way.... the birds, the squirrels, they are living NATURAL like we used to following their hearts (emotions/desires).

Agreed-for to be desire less then how can you attempt to desire to see and assist better outcomes for others when providing Services To Others. There does exist a desire to HELP. So 1 personally does not DENY that desires should not exist THE DESIRES NEED TO BE CONTROLLED however and to not controll them the desires can turn into EXTREME WANTS OF MATERIALISIM which then enforces Greed-Power which then = OPPRESSION.

Originally posted by arpgme
The only difference is that we are human and we have the intellect to find a way to maximize peace and minimize pain and we can do this by having one basic rule "do what you will and do not force your will upon another or their belongs without their permission". You may think of Aleister Crowley, but I am NOT saying this is how people should live their life, I am saying this should be the BASIS and from there people are able to choose their way of life whether it be "Service to Self" or "Service to Others" or "any other philosophical view" (as long as it isn't forcing others to live by it).

@ [color=gold] By having this rule as a basis to not force on another's will - it will help solve many conflicts, but as long as we are aggressive and controlling of other people rather than our OWN choices and life - then there will be more conflict than necessary.
[color=gold]
Agreed

Originally posted by arpgme
To me, true freedom is independence, being able to support yourself and not relying on another for anything and not letting people keep controlling or relying on you; and "free-will" is simply "being able to make own's choices without another person's threat". For example, if a person says you have "Free-will" while putting a gun to someone's head saying "give me your money or die" that is NOT free-will, that is control and threatening, TRUE free-will does NOT have consequences of another person's threats but only NATURAL consequences, for example, if you put your hand on a stove you get burned.

@ [color=gold] So this my view "do not force your will upon another - therefore do not be aggressive/controlling of others".

What is your view on all of this?
[color=gold]
That its an intelligent approach arpgme to an issue that has spanned over many times and Locations.
NAMASTE*******

reply to post by arpgme

What is TRUE freedom?

Death is the only attainable emancipation from all shackles. Other than that, TRUE freedom is an unattainable ideal.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Unless you believe in a Spirit/Soul, Death is not freedom because once you're dead you can't make ANY choices for yourself.

reply to post by BlueMule

Originally posted by BlueMule

blah, blah, I demand freedom from your semantic knee-jerk nit-picking.

Maybe that's true freedom.

If you are "demanding" something then that is crossing the boundary of free-will (do not force your will upon another).

Instead of "demanding" freedom (which can NOT happen anyway - freedom is YOU making a CHOICE)... you can instead choose whether to listen or not instead of trying to control the whole world to say or not say what you desire...

reply to post by arpgme

What is TRUE freedom?

True freedom is KNOWING that life exists beyond this incarnation...

It is a release from worry.... from sorrow, and from loss of hope...

My two cents... for what its worth

reply to post by Akragon


Not believing in free-will can do the same thing and it also frees you from responsibility...

This is why I think "beliefs" on a path to "freedom" is not a good idea as any belief/faith will work but does not mean it is true or effective.

Even if after-life is true, that is taking away the focus from THIS life, and making the living of THIS life less important/effective while they allow it to be crap for the next generation...


reply to post by AthlonSavage


Free-will is being able to freely express one's will, if I can't do what I want then it isn't "free" will it's "controlled" will.

The only exception to this rule is not forcing my will upon others and that is just for balance, a stable ground for all to be free, but if someone WANTS to practice asceticism (abstaining from bodily pleasures) then that will be their free-will CHOICE. I do not.

reply to post by arpgme

Unless you believe in a Spirit/Soul, Death is not freedom because once you're dead you can't make ANY choices for yourself.

Yes, death is freedom from making and even needing a choice to make. If you never needed to make a choice you'd be free.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


How is that freedom? That is not any from of individualized expression at all. Without choices one is frozen/stuck, I'm not sure how that can be seen as freedom...

reply to post by arpgme

How is that freedom? That is not any from of individualized expression at all. Without choices one is frozen/stuck, I'm not sure how that can be seen as freedom...

When one has to choose, he is still limited by the amount of things he can choose between. How is that true freedom?

reply to post by arpgme

agreed.

Freedom is the wind.
Freedom is the whirling waters.
Freedom is nature and nature is freedom.
our place in nature should be the only restriction placed upon freedom ... its and ours.

hopefully, the Golden rule as i learned it, fits with what you said above ... (at least they read similar to me) ... do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

it is in our very nature to 'attract' others, what one attracts is entirely up to us.
freedom accepts or denies without judgement.
freedom promotes natural tolerance, while forced tolerance promotes bitterness and resentment.

freedom to be, freedom to grow, freedom to do and become whomever we are.
may we all be free at last, free at last.
good luck.