Originally posted by Estragon
(a) Christ will not be "flesh" at the second coming (search "parousia" maybe) and the risen who are saved will assume "incorruptible' bodies: i.e. not "flesh" in any sense and hence not, in any clear sense, "reinCARNation".

So he's going to be a sprit. That will really get everyones attention. A bunch of ghost will walk around among us... Scary

Sinners, it appears are, in some sense, "reincarnated" and their corruptible flesh will die.

Can you explain this?!?!? We are all sinners.... Everyone on this planet ( especially in America) are sinners. We have flesh. The flesh dies eventually, but the sprit lives on. So if all sinners get reincarnated then a whole bunch catholic priest, politicians, and everyday average Joes will be tortured. Looks grim….

This can only be debated, not asserted, and is a thorny problem of philosophy, patristics and scholastics.
But -as a relatively definitive statement, Christ will not be incarnate.

I think it can be asserted by the first law of physics
"Energy can neither be creatd nor destroyed"

I was trying to show the contradiction in christians belief that there is no reincarnation. There is proof of this in your holy book.

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Illmatic.........How did the people know the arrival of the prophet???
Who told them of his arrival???

Quote//////Muhammad was NEEDED. That's why God sent him. Let's forget the fact that many Jews migrated from their fertile lands of Israel to the desert hell of Arabia. You know why? Because they were awaiting the arrival of The Prophet.

Originally posted by helen670
Illmatic.........How did the people know the arrival of the prophet???
Who told them of his arrival???

Quote//////Muhammad was NEEDED. That's why God sent him. Let's forget the fact that many Jews migrated from their fertile lands of Israel to the desert hell of Arabia. You know why? Because they were awaiting the arrival of The Prophet.

Didn't Jesus him self say that another will come after me. you haven't proved that Jesus is God. You doctrine says that he is a trasended version of God. Do you ever wonder where all of this "info" about Jesus being God came from helen. You worship the day of "Jesus" birth of dec 25.... A pagen holiday for the Roman Sun God. Thisis a total slap in the Face of your "God"

As far as Jesus being aducted.... read your bible.

Ezekiel 1:15 - 1:17

Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with it four faces. 16 The appearances of the wheels and their and their workings was like the color of beryl, and four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel . 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went

This passage has nothing to do with Jesus but I'm showing that the bible has many entries were it shows mans interaction with, well you know.

John 8:23

And he said to them, " You are from beneath(could mean Earth); I am from above( Above there heads mabey). You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:28

Then Jesus said to them, "Wehn you life up the Son of Man( Not sone of God), then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My father taught me, I speak these things

Helen God is Love, it's as simple as that. So love and you are "saved". Just believeing in something won't "save" you. Besides what are you trying to "save" your self from?!?!? The sin of man, the wrath of God?!?!? You sould never stop searching for truth. Read my signature

Once again were getting off topic. you all have falied to disprove reincarnation in the "Christian" Religion


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Originally posted by helen670
Illmatic.........How did the people know the arrival of the prophet???
Who told them of his arrival???

Quote//////Muhammad was NEEDED. That's why God sent him. Let's forget the fact that many Jews migrated from their fertile lands of Israel to the desert hell of Arabia. You know why? Because they were awaiting the arrival of The Prophet.

Helen, I already told you in my previous post how the arrival came about. It was a Christian Monk to prophecised the coming of the Prophet to a man by the name of Zayd, the legend grew and before you know it both Christians are awaiting the Coming of The Prophet. Jesus even predicted the coming of Muhammad. He said that after his death he would send the people the Paraclete, who would remind them of everything he taught. In syriac lecture, the world 'paraclete' had been translated to the word munahhema, which at the time seemed very close to Muhammad. Other Christians had read periklytos instead of paraclete which can be translated to Ahmad. Like Muhammad, that name means the Praised One. Jesus foretold of another who will be named Ahmad and he would confirm his message.

Another story: A rabbi of great devotion and faith in God had emigrated to Yathrib (Medina) from Syria. When asked why he left his gentle fertile land for a land of 'harship and hunger' he replied that he wanted to be in the land when the 'Prophet' arrived. "His time had come and dont let anyone get to him before you, O Jews, for he will be sent to shed blood and to take captive the women and the children who oppose him. Let not that keep you back from him." He would say this to all the Jews of Yathrib.

Even the day the Prophet was concieved is a miracle itself.

Story: One day Abd al-Muttalib (Muhammad's grandfather) and his son Abdallah (Muhammad's father) were walking through the streets of Mecca to visit their new wives when a woman rushed out and invited Abdallah into her bed. Abdallah took interest but he replied he had to stay with his father and that he would indeed come back one day. When he arrived to the house of his new wife, Amina, he consummated his marriage and immediately Muhammad was conceived. The next morning Abdallah went back to the woman who had invited him to her bed and she was no longer interested. "Yesterday, there had been a blaze of bright light inbetween Abdallah's eyes which showed he was about to produce the Prophet of his people. Today, the light is gone and another woman had conceived the Messenger of God."

(lol)....Abstract...Abstract..Abstract(sorry bout that illmatic )



''''Now i saw heaven opened ,
and behold ,
a white horse .
And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True ,
and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
His eyes were like flames of fire ,
and on His
head were many crowns.
He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
and His name is called
The WORD(LOGOS) of God.''''......
.....[Revelation 19:11 -13 ]......


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by helen670]

Originally posted by abstract_alao

Originally posted by helen670
Illmatic.........How did the people know the arrival of the prophet???
Who told them of his arrival???

Quote//////Muhammad was NEEDED. That's why God sent him. Let's forget the fact that many Jews migrated from their fertile lands of Israel to the desert hell of Arabia. You know why? Because they were awaiting the arrival of The Prophet.

Didn't Jesus him self say that another will come after me. you haven't proved that Jesus is God. You doctrine says that he is a trasended version of God. Do you ever wonder where all of this "info" about Jesus being God came from helen. You worship the day of "Jesus" birth of dec 25.... A pagen holiday for the Roman Sun God. Thisis a total slap in the Face of your "God"

As far as Jesus being aducted.... read your bible.

Ezekiel 1:15 - 1:17

Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with it four faces. 16 The appearances of the wheels and their and their workings was like the color of beryl, and four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel . 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went

This passage has nothing to do with Jesus but I'm showing that the bible has many entries were it shows mans interaction with, well you know.

John 8:23

And he said to them, " You are from beneath(could mean Earth); I am from above( Above there heads mabey). You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:28

Then Jesus said to them, "Wehn you life up the Son of Man( Not sone of God), then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My father taught me, I speak these things

Helen God is Love, it's as simple as that. So love and you are "saved". Just believeing in something won't "save" you. Besides what are you trying to "save" your self from?!?!? The sin of man, the wrath of God?!?!? You sould never stop searching for truth. Read my signature

Once again were getting off topic. you all have falied to disprove reincarnation in the "Christian" Religion


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Abstract......i know that ''love'' alone is not a first class ticket to ''heaven'''
There is alot to consider........living a life like Jesus Christ taught..........He suffered........we suffer
He prayed............we pray
He loved His enemies................ummmmmmm lol..(we love our enemies)
He fasted for 40 days in the desert......we fast for 40 days .....(but not in the desert)
He showed us how to be , by Him living as man on earth ......WORD....LOGOS is Him .........God.........

'''The form of the fourth is like the
Son of God!''[Daniel 3 :25 ]
''''Where two or three are gathered together in My name ,
I am there in the midst of them'''[Matthew 18 :20 ]


Abstract , the one that was to come .........
is to be the Antichrist.............What are you talking about???
'''Who is a liar but he who denies that
Jesus is the Christ ?
He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son''[1 John 2 :22 ]


Abstract............I have stopped searching because I found the truth a few years ago.......

The truth is , that the more i read about the early church (Pre Schismatic (837?) -Year 1054 the split of east and west ) the more the truth stands out........for me .......although there is so much to be learnt from the early fathers (monks living in the desert and their lives in solitude and prayer )

Originally posted by helen670
Abstract......i know that ''love'' alone is not a first class ticket to ''heaven'''
There is alot to consider........living a life like Jesus Christ taught..........He suffered........we suffer
He prayed............we pray
He loved His enemies................ummmmmmm lol..(we love our enemies)
He fasted for 40 days in the desert......we fast for 40 days .....(but not in the desert)
He showed us how to be , by Him living as man on earth ......WORD....LOGOS is Him .........God.........

Christians fast? I have never met a Christian who fast forty days. Jesus wasnt the only one who suffered. Many came before him who probably have suffered a lot more. Look at Job, he suffered a lot more than Jesus but it seems Christians dont honor him now do they?

Originally posted by helen670
(lol)....Abstract...Abstract..Abstract(sorry bout that illmatic )



''''Now i saw heaven opened ,
and behold ,
a white horse .
And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True ,
and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
His eyes were like flames of fire ,
and on His
head were many crowns.
He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
and His name is called
The WORD(LOGOS) of God.''''......
.....[Revelation 19:11 -13 ]......


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by helen670]

your point is?!?!? Well if you talke the bible literally( which you do), You think a Guy is going to come out of the sky on a horse?!?! If you have any idea of how the bible was composed you would see that this is full of symbols. If you read the orginal hebrew this translation might be totally off.

I give it to the Muslims and the Jews. At least they have the original of there holy texts. Modern day Christians read a many different translations and interpretations of there “holy” books

Abstract......i know that ''love'' alone is not a first class ticket to ''heaven'''
There is alot to consider........living a life like Jesus Christ taught..........He suffered........we suffer
He prayed............we pray
He loved His enemies................ummmmmmm lol..(we love our enemies)

Are you serious?!?!? "Christ" Message was love. Praying is showing your love to the Most High. I see you laughed when you said "we love our enemies". We all know that ain't true.

He fasted for 40 days in the desert......we fast for 40 days .....(but not in the desert)
He showed us how to be , by Him living as man on earth ......WORD....LOGOS is Him

We fast?!?!? Is that why over 75% of americans are overweight!?!? Come on helen you got to come better than that. Most christains don't actually follow lent. They just go to church on the weekend

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Helen your arguments are very weakplay yoyo check it son jIgz droppin n ShI' LiEK dat son yo yo 17 inch oopa locka keepin it real cuz its lethal kid i been there cant say i havent # that # kid i got shot can u know what im sayin? word up

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by helen670
Abstract......i know that ''love'' alone is not a first class ticket to ''heaven'''
There is alot to consider........living a life like Jesus Christ taught..........He suffered........we suffer
He prayed............we pray
He loved His enemies................ummmmmmm lol..(we love our enemies)
He fasted for 40 days in the desert......we fast for 40 days .....(but not in the desert)
He showed us how to be , by Him living as man on earth ......WORD....LOGOS is Him .........God.........

Christians fast? I have never met a Christian who fast forty days. Jesus wasnt the only one who suffered. Many came before him who probably have suffered a lot more. Look at Job, he suffered a lot more than Jesus but it seems Christians dont honor him now do they?

Actually Illmatic Christians do fast for 40 days and throughout the year..........

Illmatic.......Christianity today ""modernists '' have changed with the times......but There is true Christianity that lives on.........
The Old Testament is a ''Prefiguration '' of Jesus Christ........Him being born........suffering for all humanity.......and Judging all mankind at the end of the world...........of that day no man knows but My Father.......means that His earthly life is of flesh........But His Divinity of God the Father ...knows of that time....

That is why the '''In the beginning was the WORD........

Let US make man in OUR image.......Father, Son ,Holy Spirit........

There are many prefiguring passages in the Old Testament..........of Jesus Christ coming as the world's Saviour........
''''And now the Logos(Word) accepted upon Himself the sentence (of man)
and suffering in the flesh
in behalf of all ,
He granted salvation to all''
''''We were enemies ,
we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son'''[Romans 5 , 10 ]
Then He Himself proclaimed that '''all authority in heaven and on earth hath been given Me ''[Matthew 28 , 18 ]

'''Where is He that is born King of the Jews ?''[Matthew .2 , 2 ]
'''''The Lord said to my Lord ,
sit thou at my mighty right hand ,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool'' [Psalm 109 , 1 ]
'''King of Kings and Lord of Lords ''' [Revelation 17 14; 19 , 16 ]
'''Hath highly exalted Him ,
and given Him a name which is above every name;
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven,
and things in earth ,
and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord ,
to the glory of God the
Father''' [Phil . 2 , 9 -11 ]

As for prayers and fasting.......it is done in very similar to the ''Muslims'' Bows , head covering in church, many old ''fashion '' considered by many today..........
Early Christianity still exists today.........only not many follow what is true.....but follow that of '''modern way''.......

People look at ''Western culture '' Roman Catholic Church today and think that , it speaks for all Christians........



Julian Calander.........is the true Church calander......December 25th is not the date of Christmas for many ''old calanderists''' it is 7th of Jan...........

Seriously though, Helen, your arguments are extremely weakplay

Let US make man in OUR image.......Father, Son ,Holy Spirit........

The "GODS" plural more than one said this. not the father the sun and the holy sprit

Look ,,,,,

The Roman Catholic Church (pope) does not speak for all christians............


There are many people that follow the true teachings of the early church............

I for one......know that the //Muslims'' have teachings from Christianity.........since Christianity was formed from the teachings of JESUS CHRIST...........

As for the overweight people of america...........

That is not my problem..............
what can i say...................................EAT LESS.............

(lol]........was because i knew there would be a COMMENT made...............smiling.......

and actually........it was ....smiling..........and not falling off my chair laughing..................

how do you do .......smiling...........s.o.l ???


Any way it's late....4:00 am......
im not in any way a nasty person...
Just trying to back up my arguments.......
Hope that all is ok.........................
.......there .........

Look , im not against the ''muslim'' people.........though you may think whatever........
I just cannot find any truth in the teachings of the Qu'ran.......................


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by helen670]

There's truth in every single book out there. There is truth in the bible but there are some points in the Bible that contradict other verses in the Bible. I think I made a post about it.

Originally posted by helen670

Let US make man in OUR image.......Father, Son ,Holy Spirit........

This is one of the most DESPERATE attempts of proving Trinity that I have ever seen in my LIFE! ROFL

lol Helen, unless the Bible says GOD IS IN 3 PERSONS - THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT, i could just go ahead and throw in MY bs into a verse as well

i can say that the "us" refers to a 5-Inity, but there is no teaching of it (just like the 3nity)

>>>taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org<<<

Question : God said: "Let us make man in our image . . ." (Genesis 1:26) and "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" (Genesis 11:7). To whom does the "us" refer?

Answer: Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7 are prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" (Genesis 1:27). In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the next verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" (see also Ezra 4:16-19).

very desperate

Originally posted by helen670

Jesus Christ is God.........(do i have to prove it again???)

You haven't proven it once.

>>>>>>>>taken from www.thereligioustruth.com/christianitytruths.htm<<<<<<<<<

"'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good except God alone.'" - Mark 10:18

"So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.'" - John 8:28

"The father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - Luke 22:42


"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me." - John 8:42

"For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." - John 12:49

"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." - John 8:50


"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16

"Jesus said to them, 'Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.'" - Matthew 13:57

"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'" - John 7:16

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

<<<>>>

enough said