The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom

reply to post by adjensen


Remember, adj, I didn't write the book. And it's not talking about today - it's talking about a thousand years ago. For a 300-year period immediately after Jesus was crucified.

I think we've had a disconnect

I was responding to this:

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by onthedownlow

 

Aren't modern day Christians persecuted in parts of Africa and in the Middle East

You mean like the ones who are telling people to burn their children alive because the kids are "witches" or "possessed"?
Yeah, they're being "persecuted." Thank God. They should be prosecuted for torture and abuse as well.

My comments were in regards to the question as to whether Christians today are persecuted -- they are, in significant numbers, so it isn't just history that we can look to for people (of all flavours - atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc are all persecuted to one degree or another) who suffer for their beliefs.

reply to post by adjensen

so it isn't just history that we can look to for people (of all flavours - atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc are all persecuted to one degree or another) who suffer for their beliefs.

Yes, they are. I would never deny that people of any faith - or none at all - are persecuted.

I do think, however, that many Christians see persecution as some sort of noble thing, their "cross to bear", like it makes them better people or something, or brave. If the martyr system had never existed, and people didn't hope they would be seen as martyrs, too, if they're killed for their faith, like some kind of posthumous honor or immortality -- an emulation or self-sacrificing of what Jesus (or other prophets) represented to them -- maybe the behaviors that others seem to be upset about would lessen.

Plus, too seek out such persecution just to say "You're persecuting me" seems the frame of mind of some sorts of faithful people. Certainly not all, I'm not singling out anyone. It's a "hero" type of thing, and pop culture doesn't help to discourage it.


Am I making sense?

reply to post by wildtimes


Well, the early church was pretty batty for martyrdom, though I suspect that was a coping mechanism, as much as anything else. Paul makes it pretty clear that he's tired of what he has to go through, and would greatly prefer to be with Christ, but also notes that he's still of some use to God, so he'll keep going. Christians didn't long for death, they longed for Christ.

But that enthusiasm kind of died out (har har har) along the way -- if you read about the lives of Catholic Saints, there are some, even recently, who went to the gallows or dungeon, cheerfully, but the general consensus is more along the lines of "Choose Life!" and so I kind of doubt that the pregnant woman hacked to death with a machete in Nigeria saw herself suffering a noble death, along the lines of Perpetua and Felicity.

reply to post by adjensen

I get your point.
Thanks for your thoughts, as usual, my friend!

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by jinni73

 

My knowledge of scripture and prophetic insight from Ellen White tells me that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, that knowledge of the commandments was pasted down from Adam to the generations that followed from the very begining

Reply starts here

Your knowledge of scriptue lol what does that mean youv'e read a book and believed it

a book that contradicts itself all the way through it it even states there is more than one god, there is no record of Jesus in the history books according to one of the top historians of our time (alf henriksson through the ages)who has actually checked the manuscripts of the time when it was alleged jelus was alive (i'm sure you know the etymology of the word jesus and how the first translation of his name was written in king henrys time) are you trying to tell me a historian would risk his lifes work but lying to us risking everything he has ever researched

Adam and Eve is an outright lie so as to keep women down (look at the top 2 religions christianity and islam as well as judaism all keep there women covered up) based on genetics and research done by guys like david suzuki (inventing the future) will tell you this in laymans terms

And then you tell me that you have researched the Elites and still apply no thoughts as to religion possibly being a lie and invented by them,

just because you research these guys still doesn't give you a reference point for whats true or not they've tried to kill me at least 6 times, tried to infect me with hiv, ive had haarp used on me, hitmen come to kill me, friends coerced so they can get my dna had them put spirits in me 4 times now, but you must know more about them than me because what

edit on 22-3-2013 by jinni73 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by wildtimes

You are one pushy dude, JG. How about you lay off of demanding that you know everything?
And ordering people 'back on topic' - and to worship on Saturdays and study "your evidence" or else...

tiresome and irritating

What is tiresome and irritating is presenting evidence first, having it ignored in the corresponding post, being told to search for something else and having to hear someones opinion treading all over me backed up by nothing and then the expectation from you that I must lie down and take it like a good whipping boy.....if that is the quality and fairness of the discussion you want to facilitate then it reflects more on you and your biases

I asked you in the other thread that you're cluttering up with your baggage, and I'll ask you here,

So you tell me off for responding to a poster and then you also tell me off for telling the poster to stop giving me off-topic questions. This is called having a clear double standard....

Bombarding people with arrogance and pseudo-"proof" and throwing links up that are tedious and questionable

I don't see how the anti-matter issue is pseudo-proof. This is an argument that I used and you called crap, maddness ect

How is anyone without an advanced education - let alone any 'industrialized' or 'modern' influence - going to be even remotely equipped to deal with your madness and see past your crap? You are dangerous, a danger to societies and civilizations of all kinds.

This is a quote from a doctoral dissertation from 2012

The Standard Model of particle physics can account for neither the dark matter dominating the universe's matter density, nor the baryon asymmetry that leads to the visible matter density. This dissertation explores models of new physics that connect dark matter to baryogenesis and can naturally account for the observed quantities of both types of matter. Special emphasis is given to models incorporating new weak-scale physics, as such models often predict signatures at present and upcoming experiments and can potentially be connected to solutions of the hierarchy problem.
- "Dark and light: unifying the origins of dark and visible matter" Shuve, Brian James. Harvard University
ISBN 9781267447814

This Harvard PHd student just wrote a paper still trying to solve the (lack of) anti-matter (baryon asymmetry) issue. The issue has not been solved or is anywhere close to being solved. No one in the world has solved the issue. And then you tell me that my assertion is crap and that you can see through it....THAT is the height of arrogance. YOU have just assumed yourself smarter than everyone in existence (when they all can't solve the problem). You call me arrogate yet your assumed opinion being correct implies you think you are smarter than everyone in the world...then call me names to mark your dominance.

So am I just meant to be walked all over by you too....expressing an opinion based on delusion of facts.

Your pride is astounding, and your character is anything but "Jesus-like."

No doubt I think I am fairly intelligent and have some worthwhile things to say that most people around here have never research sufficiently or understand well. When I come against people who have little interest in learning anything other than confirming their own opinion, and assume that their opinion (backed up by nothing other than personal insults) is more correct than the smartest people in the world then some clashes will probably arises when I have a personal commitment to pursuing truth and understanding, rather than following confirmation bias, normalcy bias

Think of it as helpful criticism.

A helpful criticism would be, if you are expressing a personal opinion then make sure it is backed up with evidence...

you express a personal opinion about the age of the earth being very old, back it up with no evidence (or reliable evidence) then assume you know best and can see through my arguments. Your assumptions about an old Earth are incorrect. There are numerous factors that put a hard limit on the age of the Earth (or life on the Earth) and those hard limit ages are very young! I will be presenting some of this evidence in response in the future when I have a bit of time

What is your real fear, JG?
That you'll be all alone in Heaven because nobody else will make it there?

My fear would be not acting toward a situation I knew God expected me to act on....to let the opportunity slip away to help preserve the integrity of someones faith here on ATS that would be damaged by reading your opinion about how Christianity is baseless and a myth, is dangerous and should be banned. God has given information and understanding for me to use...if I do not use it, but keep it to myself then I am being a bad steward and ungrateful towards Him.

God does not hold things against people on things then didn't know....(so your basic accusation is baseless according to how God like act)

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


In a strange and ironic way, your posts in these these two threads actually arent as off-topic as they could be.

You represent the very kind of "Christian" that not only seeks out persecution, but also wants to take this thinking to innocent people elsewhere.

PLUS, you didn't answer my questions, again!
(Before you just made that edit)

Here there are, and I ask them not just to you this time, but to ALL proselytizing brow-beating Christians:
If you want to contribute to the thread, these questions are very much on-topic, and it WOULD help us understand your mindset better if you ANSWER THEM:

What is your real fear, JG?

That you'll be all alone in Heaven because nobody else will make it there?

You'll get bored chatting up Jesus, or he'll get bored listening to you while he yawns and rolls his eyes and drums his fingers on his throne arm?

That he'll tell you you didn't do enough, or do it well, and the place should be teeming with "saved souls", except that YOU failed to get the invitations out?

Will you please just answer them?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

your opinion about how Christianity is baseless and a myth, is dangerous and should be banned.

I said YOU are dangerous, and your missionary work with uneducated people should be banned.

Not Christianity. For heaven's sake. You just get nastier and nastier. :shk: So, how many people on ATS have you "saved", then? Or jungle-dwelling aboriginal peoples?

You actually think you're the only one who studies these things? Really?
Firstly, you don't have the mileage of years behind you yet to be a "sage" on anything at all.

Second of all, I've studied the "world experts", too - like Karen Armstrong. You probably don't even know who she is. But some victorian lady named Ellen White, who was starting a cult at the same time as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Theosophy people is RIGHT?

And who is it who doesn't want to hear anything that doesn't confirm their own opinion, again?

I've made it a point to ASK PEOPLE what they think, ever since I've been on here. I've talked with all sorts of religious followers and atheists as well...
I even made a thread asking for people to share their stories. Did you participate in it? Nope. Gee, I wonder why.
Not too late. Link is in my sig, just for your convenience.

reply to post by jinni73

a book that contradicts itself all the way through it it even states there is more than one god,

The Bible does not contradict itself at all...it is your understanding of what is meant that gives the allusion that it is contradictory. In this instance, there really is only one God but the people who worship the false beings (the fallen angel manifestations or their own man made systems) would consider them gods so the Bible is merely using language so that the people at the time reading it would know what they are referring to. If you read that passage in line with the priest of Baal vs Elijah on Mt Carmel, the Bible makes it very clear that the supposed deities others worship have no real power and are thus fake and NOT gods.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

God does not hold things against people on things then didn't know..

And if they're happy not knowing, and God is okay with it...why can't you be okay with it?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

God has given information and understanding for me to use...if I do not use it, but keep it to myself then I am being a bad steward and ungrateful towards Him.

Same here!

reply to post by wildtimes

Will you please just answer them?

I believe I gave a suitable enough answer in my edited answer that you may have missed

In a strange and ironic way, your posts in these these two threads actually arent as off-topic as they could be.

So I get told off for being off-topic but now they are acceptable....some consistency please

I said YOU are dangerous, and your missionary work with uneducated people should be banned.

Why is that...the information that I presented on the Anti-matter problem which is a proof the whole Milky Way Galaxy was supernaturally created is a good enough assertion that the smartest people in the world can't refute. It is not like I am spreading a lie and dressing it up in technical jargon. I am spreading a truth of reality (the lack of anti-matter in the galaxy) and expressing what the the real religious ramifications of that is. If you want to argue with my interpretation of what the religious ramifications are then you are free to do so (make sure you back it up with some facts though), but saying that I should be Banned (censor myself) for merely expressing a reality of the world (no anti-matter) then that that is like saying I better call something that is green orange instead or I better just shut up.

When merely expressing reality pisses people of because it doesn't conform to their world view of no supernatural God then you know their belief system is built on a very shaky foundation and is in trouble.

So, how many people on ATS have you "saved", then?

That will be most easily be determined during the end times tribulation period as most of what I post is to do with laying the ground work for that decisive event. The people that have indicated to me that I have made a impact for them to take a step in the direction of my lead already would varying in how much of a step (in thinking and practice) they have taken and also from what starting position they were already at. A case could be made for somewhere between 3 and 10 as things stand now. If I was to stop posting right now and the Tribulation period begins I would say that I have laid enough ground work to get at least about 40+ people. If I continue to post and post through the Tribulation period just here on ATS that figure will be more like many hundreds if not many thousands by the end of probation (when the Book of Life closes).

It is actually easiest for me to reach someone on topics of religion in a one on one format, and it is pretty easy for me to get a complete non-religious or semi pagan types to take on the information and see the implications for themselves very easily, after not much interaction at all. And when I am reaching someone it isn't with the kind of resultant Christianity that is a mere side addition to their life that can come or go, it is a very serious committed expression of Christianity.

You actually think you're the only one who studies these things? Really?

I know that next to nobody on ATS has studied the the depth and bread of creation science teaching that I have studied from people who have taught it at university level under the toughest standards. A few here that use examples from a couple of the people I cite have done so either after I have already posted on them and then they have decided to learn more themselves (before posting on the topic) or have done so after I have posted affirming the content many months before hand.

The amount of study most sceptics of creation science do in reading and listening to the best material creation scientists have to offer is abysmal. They generally have already been brainwashed by one kind of world view and they are repelled by anything that will challenge that comfort-zone they have built for themselves. Most of the best creation science evidence is not taught to the general public at all so unless you have studied specifically creation science material from the best guys out there over the last 10 years then you are unlikely to have heard the kinds of things I am regurgitating from them.

Firstly, you don't have the mileage of years behind you yet to be a "sage" on anything at all.

Who said I was a sage...I am on this forum because my fellow adventist's are too lazy to be on here...my only good qualities is being able to see patterns in complex information and combining several links. I am fortunate that what I have studied is top quality info,(both SDA theology and prophecy understanding since childhood, best researches on NWO and secret societies, and best creation scientists as well as having a very good understanding of analyzing world events, history, geopolitics and global economics which is what my main formal education is in up to masters level...although right now I am formally studying global religions as well full-time) mostly I am just combining information from all of them than expressing anything completely new.

Second of all, I've studied the "world experts", too

well done....whether what Karen was teaching you would stand up to scrutiny is another story though. If you actually were after world class Christian understanding on the Bible as a whole (and in a way that you will know the Bible as being completely non-contradictory at all) the best education you can get is from Adventists. But hey, what do I know, other than that I can destroy every argument relating to Christian doctrinal understanding that is different from SDA understanding on the forum and no one here has been able to establish any fault in SDA theology while I have been here.

And who is it who doesn't want to hear anything that doesn't confirm their own opinion, again?

Studying from a bad example of Christian understanding and scriptural knowledge that confirms an opinion that Christianity is false is not really challenging yourself too much there...If you wanted to study something contrary you would SDA theology and prophecy to understand Christianity properly.

I even made a thread asking for people to share their stories. Did you participate in it? Nope. Gee, I wonder why.

I didn't participate in it because I never saw it. Sometimes I am not on ATS for a few days, most of the time I stick to just replying to 1 or two threads at a time and don't look at much of anything else. The only threads that really catch my eye for me to view are those relating to Christian prophecy which is the main reason why I am on ATS, to speak on prophecy. Or those that are overtly damaging to Christianity where I might have to go do a repair job.

If you want my answer to that thread I will send it to you by PM

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

well done....whether what Karen was teaching you would stand up to scrutiny is another story though.

This just made me spit out my last swallow of tea.
WHAT?!! So, you DON'T know who she is, do you? Do a google or bing search on her and see how "well" she stands up to scrutiny.
KAREN ARMSTRONG
One of her best books is free pdf online - here

A History of God
Book by Karen Armstrong
A History of God is a best-selling book by Karen Armstrong. It details the history of the three major monotheistic traditions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Also included in the book are Buddhism and Hinduism. Wikipedia
Published: 1993

That's just copied from one of the hundreds of references on a general search page.
Here is wiki's extract on how she addresses Christianity:

Christianity
Armstrong then turns to the life of Jesus. She identifies his roots in the Pharisaic tradition of Rabbi Hillel and his effect on the Jewish conception of God. The death of Jesus and its attendant symbolism are examined, including the various constructions others, most notably Paul, have placed upon these events.
The book explores the rise of trinitarianism, leading to the Nicene creed, and traces the evolution of the Christian conception of God and the trinity in the respective Eastern and Western traditions.

en.wikipedia.org...

You make a LOT of assumptions about people.

I don't deny there is a Creation that we don't fully understand. Pretending you can understand it all is silly. Your anti-matter link does nothing to prove young earth, nor Adam and Eve. Science is still exploring things like anti-matter and quantum mechanics. NO ONE gets it completely...even the physicists are baffled by it.

If you are now studying world religions, that's a good thing. Try to approach it with an open mind, and not just an eye to figuring out how to shoot down every other form of religion. Many people want nothing to do with Christianity at all, even knowing all about it. Your brain is still developing: scientific fact. I and many others have decades of experience and accumulated knowledge - gathered slowly, through hard work, for longer than you have lived. Fact. You don't know everything. Fact.

Deal with it. You can't rush it. Just realize you have no place to tell the "world" how "right" you are, what the universe is made of, where it came from, how long it's been here, or where we're ALL headed. I gather you want to be a hero for the fallen...a champion for Jesus...that's not unique or a first, in any way at all, you know.

Studying from a bad example of Christian understanding and scriptural knowledge that confirms an opinion that Christianity is false is not really challenging yourself too much there...

Obviously you don't have a clue who she is. :shk:

reply to post by wildtimes

And if they're happy not knowing, and God is okay with it...why can't you be okay with it?

I will use a few of examples for you to illustrate why...

1. A predominate teaching in mainstream Christianity (both Catholic and Protestant generally) is that God sends everyone to burn in hell forever for not believing in Him. This is a false teaching in Christianity that comes via the Egyptian religion, taken on by the Catholics and then dispersed to other Christianity. Adventists never teach this. For all those you never know God, God judges them more on whether their character is inline with His. Those who do not have their character inline with His will be erased from existence NOT perpetually burn and suffer forever. All Christianity that wrongfully teach the BS version of hell make God's character out to be a cruel tyrant. If I can show people that the other Christianity is speaking falsely about God (based on what is said in the scripture) then people will be more inclined to see Christianity as a viable religion where much spiritual insights can be made and character development can be achieved, and where they would like to get close personally to the Creator, than being repelled by how He is falsely represented. By "not knowing" the truth about God's character they are throwing away the chance for God to lead them by His ways through His Spirit. If people are not lead to wisdom and truth by the Spirit then basically they are navigating the world without much of a compass and are at the mercy of any subtle deception Satan can muster to excite the senses or thoughts to lead them away from God even more.

2. Another area that people really suffer by not knowing it seems is the reason why bad things happen in this world because they don't understand the full picture that Satan is here, why he is allowed to be here and why God didn't just destroy him already.

This two ares are major things that in not knowing it can really harm people spiritually very severely. I can provide answers to those kinds of questions that are very helpful in drawing people closer to God and understanding the purpose of this current existence.

our anti-matter link does nothing to prove young earth, nor Adam and Eve

I will be posting on mitochondrial eve (being only 6000 years old), the atmosphere being less than 10,000 years old based on how Carbon 14 is created and that it hasn't reached equilibrium yet which is occur only after 30,000 years...and then there is number artifacts and signs of human activity I will be posting on that shows humans were presents from the Cambrian layer (as well as fully developed plant and all phylum types) ....when i can gather the info up I will post it properly..might be a few days though

I will just be sending you a PM next for your other thread then I am heading off.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

So I get told off for being off-topic but now they are acceptable....some consistency please

Oh, and you don't "tell people off"?
You're investigating other streams of thoughts and approaches and have a handle on all of them, so you can actually converse with people of different beliefs? It doesn't show.
It took me a while to think over how your posts could contribute positively to these threads. At least I've attempted to integrate your rants into the OP premises.

You say people need to be led by the Spirit. That means, the Spirit INSIDE US ALL. The INDWELLING aspect of God that belongs to every human being innately. YOU are not the Spirit. Why don't you simply trust the Spirit to do its thing for everyone in the most appropriate way FOR THEM?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

A predominate teaching in mainstream Christianity (both Catholic and Protestant generally) is that God sends everyone to burn in hell forever for not believing in Him. This is a false teaching in Christianity that comes via the Egyptian religion, taken on by the Catholics and then dispersed to other Christianity.

That is not current Catholic teaching.

For many years, the Roman Catholic Church taught that people could enjoy eternal life and escape everlasting damnation only by being received into its membership. In recent generations, that teaching has changed. Rome now embraces a very inclusive view that extends the hope of salvation to people of many different religions or even no religion at all, provided they sincerely follow the truth and goodness that they know in their own experience. Although Rome teaches that salvation is always, somehow, mediated through Christ and his church, it does not require explicit contact with the church, the Scriptures, or the proclamation of the gospel. (Source)

This is best summarized by the statement that, while it's all up to God in the end, we believe that the only ones who are condemned are those who know the truth about Christ and intentionally reject him.

However, since it's up to God, a Catholic will never say that "so and so is in Hell", and it's why people who are put up for sainthood need to have verifiable miracles associated with them, because that's the only way that we know they are in Heaven (because people in Hell can't do miracles.)

Adventists never teach this. For all those you never know God, God judges them more on whether their character is inline with His.

Ironically enough, this is pretty much exactly the same view as the Catholic one.

ok jesuitgarlic do you have an open mind?

have you looked into all the similarities between the religions that the worship of saturn is meant to encompass
and are you aware theres a possibility that the elite could of written these bibles to control people on a fear based level?

I understand where your coming from about the guy who did the research on your chart but its what we are told now is what matters not 100 years ago even if it was the truth we are told that the serfs rose up against the french royal family but that is an outright lie and was started by the freemasons to introduce religion and modern warfare where as before that it was nowhere near what its like today we are told our governments have our best interests at heart and on the other hand we have them infiltrating the terroist groups and blowing the very people up who they are meant to protect

You are lied to on every front its all well and good defending your position but its not worth defending a lie just because you want to believe it.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by jinni73

 

a book that contradicts itself all the way through it it even states there is more than one god,

The Bible does not contradict itself at all...it is your understanding of what is meant that gives the allusion that it is contradictory. In this instance, there really is only one God but the people who worship the false beings (the fallen angel manifestations or their own man made systems) would consider them gods so the Bible is merely using language so that the people at the time reading it would know what they are referring to. If you read that passage in line with the priest of Baal vs Elijah on Mt Carmel, the Bible makes it very clear that the supposed deities others worship have no real power and are thus fake and NOT gods.

Look its about a 99% chance you are actually worshipping demons and i might add physically bringing them in with your prayers so you crack on and live in a fantasy land where you cannot get your head around the fact another human could of written a book and i'll keep on trying to stop the elites risking my life for other people that are so brainwashed they would rather risk there souls being trapped on earth for the duration of time,

reply to post by jinni73

Look its about a 99% chance you are actually worshiping demons and i might add physically bringing them in with your prayers

Basically all my prayers are silent prayers (I pray to no deceased person)....no one can hear what I am saying (no demon) only God. In around 100 languages in the world the 7th day of the week literally translates to mean the Sabbath, the day of rest (about twice the amount whose language designate the day to refer to the planet Saturn). If my language was Russian for instance, your assertion would have no foundation, or basically any Polynesian language or most African languages ect. Best not accuse me of calling demons upon myself or following Satan. I am very anti-satanic.

you cannot get your head around the fact another human could of written a book and i'll keep on trying to stop the elites risking my life for other people that are so brainwashed they would rather risk there souls being trapped on earth for the duration of time,

You can fight the elites in your own way, I'll fight them in my own way. We all have our different roles to play and different areas of influence.

You are lied to on every front its all well and good defending your position but its not worth defending a lie just because you want to believe it.

I can defend my position on the supernatural creation of the Earth and the universal flood ect to the cows come home. Suggesting I am merely brainwashed, just following another book is not a good move to take. If you want to talk to me about the elites and their activities ect then send me a PM. It is not a productive discussion for you to accuse me these things about my beliefs