Shame On Your Mr. President. Shame On You, page 10

reply to post by Hefficide

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Hey Heff -

I see your post invited a flock of "I told you so" posts and emboldened a few of the "birther" and "Manchurian/Kenyan secret Jihadist" crew to pipe in as well.

I think time spent reflecting on what powers you might have embibed the President with would serve you well. It apeears you placed to much expectation in the President when he was first elected, but placed your dissapointment on hold for four years...he's got an election to win? right? Then a few months into second term...all that stocked-up disappointment came due? Your expectations were over-sized. He was always the "best alternative".."the lessor of evils" any way you slice it, but no messiah.

You mentioned "Executive Orders" as a hoped for method to change the course? Long ago, before he took office, President Obama derided President Bush as issuing too many executive orders, declared them dangerous to democracy.

Number of Executive Orders by President...

William J. Clinton
364

George W. Bush
291

Barack Obama
147

And Pres. Roosevelt who you spoke of?
Franklin D. Roosevelt
3,522

Alas...YES...President Obama could go the way of Roosevelt...but circumventing the balance of powers...the representitives of the people?...for a greater good? Bleed the Democracy to save it? For as wacked out as the GOP is right now and as frustrated as I am with them, if the President went on an Executive order spree or otherwise nuetered the other branches of government, even for the greater good...I would stand beside the crazy GOP and demand his impeachment or trial. I would rather watch America fail as the democracy our founders designed...watch the "great expirement" fizzle out or explode...than to see it survive as some mutant of what it once was. .....Of the people...like it or not....even when we disagree.

Aside form that, executive orders can be reversed with a swipe of the pen, legislation on the other hand?...

In the end I predict Pres. Obama's 2nd term will get more done than you expect, but not as much as you would like.

And by the way...think Lincoln...not Roosevelt.

CH: Have you looked back in history, particularly at the second terms of other presidents, for inspiration?

There are all sorts of lessons to be learned both from past presidents and my own first term. I've said this before, but one of the things that happened in the first term was that we had so many fires going on at the same time that we were focusing on policy and getting it right, which means that we were spending less time communicating with the American people about why we were doing what we were doing and how it tied together with our overarching desire of strengthening our middle class and making the economy work.

I always read a lot of Lincoln, and I'm reminded of his adage that, with public opinion, there's nothing you can't accomplish; without it, you're not going to get very far. And spending a lot more time in terms of being in a conversation with the American people as opposed to just playing an insider game here in Washington is an example of the kinds of change in orientation that I think we've undergone, not just me personally, but the entire White House.

www.newrepublic.com...

reply to post by hurdygurdy

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Here are the steps to healing shame and alleviating its effects:

Commit to right action as a way of life.
Take massive action to correct any past wrongdoing.
Review any areas of your life that are not flowing; identify any hidden shame.
Clean slate any areas of shame.

The impact of shame

I believe the President is unable to feel shame because of the power he is currently is experiencing... not to mention his behavior and actions.

reply to post by relocator

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It all depends on which side of the fence you are on. I like him, he doesn't ring my bs bell. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes other than what we're spoon fed by the msm. He may surprise us.

reply to post by hurdygurdy

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A chance I would rather not take if I had the choice... Unfortunately the decision by the so called majority has made their decision and we'll be the ones to suffer & experience the consequences. His actions and lies the past 4 years are enough for me thank you.

Originally posted by hurdygurdy
reply to post by relocator

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It all depends on which side of the fence you are on. I like him, he doesn't ring my bs bell. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes other than what we're spoon fed by the msm. He may surprise us.

i agree

reply to post by hurdygurdy

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Three nearly indistinguishable feelings

Ashamed=difference between my value/moral and my behavior.
Shame=difference between someone else's value/moral and my behavior.
Guilt=ashamed + 24 hours.

Shame on you=
Little old ladies do that to help young wayward amoral individuals internalize and acclimate proper socially acceptable values.

reply to post by cornucopia

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Good for you!!!
Enjoy the journey...

reply to post by Indigo5

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Balanced, supported by hard facts and on a level. Executed without the help of any ridiculous graphics as well.
You provided an excellent post, hope you get applauded for it.
Nice to see some grown-ups in around here once in a while!


Baffles me really that I can't expect more from an ATS mod.

reply to post by Indigo5

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Your numbers are a bit off. FDR had 3,728.

As for my expectations? This entire OP has been stretched and interpreted in many different ways. Most of them in no way reflective of the spirit it was written in... that is to say of a voter trying to hold a public official accountable to his promises and to do what is best for the country as a whole - and not just pockets of vested interests.

Aside from that, I've just read every post I've made in this thread and cannot find where I even mentioned Executive orders. Can you please do me the service of helping me locate the quote that you are referring to? It's possibly there, but I am aging and we all know how that goes. If we're simply discussing the idea in a vague way - then I'd have to say that I don't think I implied that he should supersede Congress if possible. Then again, I'd much rather see an EO authorizing a single payer system than one that seeks to gut away our protections from Governmental abuses - things like Rendition, etc.

As for Lincoln vs FDR? I actually mentioned them both in my OP. I happen to admire FDR, as unpopular as that is currently. Either way, however, that is a personal opinion and I'd expect others to accept that it is my opinion even if they disagree.

If nothing else, this thread has been interesting in the variety of impressions that it seems to have left different people with. That shows, I think, the fragmentation of the American psyche today.

reply to post by Raud

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My being a mod has nothing to do with my opinion, nor my right to voice it. Exactly what are you implying?

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Indigo5

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Your numbers are a bit off. FDR had 3,728.

Apparently wikipedia lied to me? Maybe it had to do with the gov numbers including "both number and letter designation"
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Hefficide
As for my expectations? This entire OP has been stretched and interpreted in many different ways. Most of them in no way reflective of the spirit it was written in... that is to say of a voter trying to hold a public official accountable to his promises

OK...in todays world holding a public official 100% accountable to his promises, given politics and despite circumstances, is only a few notches below Messiah-level expecations. Every politician, even those we support, should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism IMO. Statements taken with two handfulls of salt.

Originally posted by Hefficide
and to do what is best for the country as a whole - and not just pockets of vested interests.

This circles back to the statement above. I believe that politicians should be held to thier proclaimed intent as well as thier ability to execute on that intent. Holding them accountable to results in a fiercly divided government designed to be a "balance of of powers?...not convinced in the fairness of that expectation. In a dicatorship...sure...in our democracy? We can hold a President accountable for thier actions, but not the totality of governments actions (Legislative and Judicial)...it doesn't make sense. So in the end a fair question is ...is he doing all he can within bounds? The things he is trying to do or has gotten done...are they legit?

Given the unprecedented political climate of division and extremism, the presidents consistent respect for preserving the balance of powers even in the face of that extremism, obstruction etc...I am not fully convinced that he has failed to properly execute on his "intent"...nor I am I convinced he has sold out to "moneyed" interests.

The GOP like to tout what Bill Clinton got done in a divided government...but the GOP of that period would be considered "liberal" by todays standards...and when they discuss that time as "happy days" of bipartisanship, they always seem to forget that they impeached him.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Aside from that, I've just read every post I've made in this thread and cannot find where I even mentioned Executive orders. Can you please do me the service of helping me locate the quote that you are referring to?

No worries. First page

Originally posted by Hefficide

With Romney there was no mystery at all. He was going to deliver the killing blow to an already bloodied middle class and the nearly dead working poor. Obama, I had hoped, given a lame duck administration, might use his Executive Orders to make some real changes.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Then again, I'd much rather see an EO authorizing a single payer system than one that seeks to gut away our protections from Governmental abuses - things like Rendition, etc.

President Obama is not going to be our "savior" of civil liberties. Better than Pres. Bush, but not as "liberal" with regards to civil liberties as many hoped.

reply to post by Hefficide

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Originally posted by Hefficide

As for Lincoln vs FDR? I actually mentioned them both in my OP. I happen to admire FDR, as unpopular as that is currently. Either way, however, that is a personal opinion and I'd expect others to accept that it is my opinion even if they disagree.

If nothing else, this thread has been interesting in the variety of impressions that it seems to have left different people with. That shows, I think, the fragmentation of the American psyche today.

Alas...the "fragmentation" of the "American Psyche"...the idealogical division...the partisanship...the "tone"...the lack of compromise...

I see it as a "perfect storm"...but fleeting by it's nature like even the worst of hurricaines.

It began with a strategy of division. Lee Atwater was the Philosophical grandfather, Karl Rove his protege.

A divided nation was predicatable, easy to manipulate and pander to, reliable voters...and emotions like fear and anger are hardwired in people to overcome rational, logical thought. the "lizard brain". Fight or flee etc.

Atwater appealed to racism/fear...his protege Karl Rove expanded it to the Christian right..."Gay Marriage" became the hot button issue...and other issues followed.

The populace no longer thought about real "issues"..but rather if Joe and Bill, whom they never met, could get married...etc.

The Democrats didn't exactly call BS on the strategy, because it afforded them a chance to play the same game.

The strategy also allowed the GOP to recruit the evangelical christian right in a bid for a divided nation, but as Karl Rove said...a chance at the GOP having a "Permanent Majority" and to destroy the Democrats once and for all.

As all of this "lizard brain (appeals to racism, fear, intolerance etc) vs. REAL ISSUES" strategy was being rolled out...the economic crisis hit!

Economic Crisis has always peaked intolerance, anger and fear in societies....and our politics had been teasing the division for a decade! Culture wars!

My only consolation is that intuitively I know it has climaxed..emotions are fleeting...and the mainstream is exhausted with the division...and the bottom line issues like jobs, taxes etc. have eclipsed whether or not someone can build a Mosque in Arkansas etc. etc.

We are still divided, but the discussion is creeping back to "issues" as opposed to emotional appeals...though both parties still try to insert emotion into it...the people are less tolerant of those emotional appeals.

Still divided...but past the climax of that division.

reply to post by CranialSponge

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Since JFK was shot it initiated the slow motion coup de etat in America.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Raud

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My being a mod has nothing to do with my opinion, nor my right to voice it. Exactly what are you implying?

Yes, I see that I might have been carried away there for a moment. It happens from time to time when emotions becomes inflamed (as they do when extremists comes marching in, nuff said).

What I was implying (maybe in an uncalled for manner) was that I've seen so many of these threads come and go here at ATS and I reckonned that you mods would be more than well aware of that too.
The OP contained so much of what I regard as "misguided frustration", I was surprised that the mod community didn't see things more holistic, so to speak...
I tried early on to ask if this anger originated in some personal negative experience but was left without answer. Of course, you don't have to share that if you don't feel like it (given it is so). When you went awol from the discussion I took it as if you dropped it like a cold fish, but obviously you did not.

So that was my idea of it. Not so much offence intended as I was wondering why a mod would author such a thread, that's all.

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