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Why I cannot bring myself to believe in a God

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posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


How could he know of something he doesn't believe exists unless he has in fact been there?

You either missed or dodged the point. I am not going to paraphrase it. So that is that.




posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


There is nothing that anyone can say to completely remove the doubt; it can only go away by faith. But this is the way it is said in the bible.

There is a promise that man will not be tested anything more than he can stand up against. And as impossible as this sounds now is the time for God. Prayer that God will be there to keep the family strong. Prayer for healing, prayer for God's will to be done. Prayer that God will come through on his promise not to give me more than I can handle.

I know this is not the warm and fuzzy answer you want. But there must be a God and he must let this stuff happen. Nothing else makes any more since than that.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


I don't believe in gods, either, but I came to my position, not because God wouldn't let these bad things happen, but because it makes no logical sense to me that an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect entity would create a complex universe and world and then throw out a bunch of rules for the people to follow and prove to him that they believe in him and will devote their lives to him, worship him and follow his rules... If he's all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfect, why does he need this reinforcement of his greatness from a bunch of insignificant beings that he created? It's illogical and irrational, IMO.

It makes MUCH more sense to me that when man's brain became evolved enough to start to look at the sky and 'wonder' about his existence, the uncomfortableness of the unknown answers caused him to 'fill in' with stories of Ra and Osiris, Isis and Horus... And eventually, the story morphed into a single unnamed 'God' and his human liaison, Jesus (or Muhammad or whomever). Powerful people began to see how they could use this 'story of explanation' to control the masses' behavior and religion was born.


We are born with a natural tendency to 'fill in' areas of knowledge that we have yet to acquire as a species. An interesting article on the phenomenon:



The mind is programmed to see coincidences as significant and to think that inanimate objects have minds.

"We see faces wherever we look, whether in the clouds or on Mars," he said. "We think that cars are vindictive and computers nasty when they don't behave properly." Prof Hood has studied attachment objects — blankets, soft toys and so on — which children are unwilling to part with even if they are promised a copy.

"They are frightened the integrity of the object will be violated," he said.

When he offered adults the chance to duplicate a wedding ring, down to the last atom, most of them would, like the children, prefer the original.
Source

Anyway, I understand the road from believing to not believing, as I was raised in a religious home with strong beliefs. As I grew up, I also began asking questions and sorting it out for myself. Good luck in your journey.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 09:56 AM
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You can't blame the Creatrix for problems we have created. Humans were given a cure for every disease that exists. Its called nature. We chose to be ignorant and pay that price. You have free will. We could have, and still can create Eden on Earth. And yet we poison the air, water and food and expect to stay healthy. We did it to ourselves. She has no hand in our suffering.
edit on 2-3-2013 by Oannes because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
So basically God doesn't exist because bad stuff happens that right? Didn't pay much attention in church did you? You're still young and naive, give it about 12 years and when you start drowning in your sorrows and grief, maybe when you contemplate blowing your brains out because your life never mattered from the beginning, maybe then you will be ready to start listening to Jesus, then you'll start learning something. Should that day ever come, hit your knees and ask him to forgive you of your sins and ask him to reveal himelf to you.

I wasn't always a christian, in fact i didn't turn to him till i was 31 years old. I dabbled in alot of stuff, and lived a hard life. In the end i put my hopes in Jesus. By the time i had hurt enough people and left a path of destruction in my wake, no other gods promised salvation from my sins. No other gods promised to take away my sorrows and wipe the slate clean. All those other gods offer nothing but death. A block of wood is a worthless doctrine.


What a disturbing response. This is another facet of Christianity that I disliked. You can just forgot about all your past sins by asking for forgiveness? What kind of lessons does that teach? That your actions hold no meaning since they can be expunged with a prayer? This is what your God has become though. Something that can help you cope and I will not be using God as a crutch to help me through my sorrows. I will rely on friends and family for that if need be. They are something I know exist and know will talk back to me.


Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


Dear StruggleTogether,



If I am wrong and there is a God, then I refuse to believe in him.


You say if there is a God you will refuse to believe there is. You say you rather deceive yourself than accept the truth. Does that change the truth or just mean you prefer to lie to yourself? I am not really sure what to say to you if you would willing lie to yourself. If so then you would accept any lie and be willing to be in an even worse situation? Your comment is simply illogical. No love and no logic makes no sense.


I'm not quite sure how what I said is illogical. If a God decides to reveal himself to everyone by saying "I refuse to believe in him" I'm not saying I will ignore his existence, but I will refuse to put my faith in him if that makes sense. There are many people who may love their country, but have no faith in their government. They know it exists, but they don't 'believe' in it per se. I want nothing to do with a God that allows for so much suffering.
edit on 2-3-2013 by StruggleTogether because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by HomoSapiensSapiens
reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


As much as I sympathise with the story; I would not use such reasoning and approach in saying that I cannot believe in God or that a God does not exist.

The intelligent, sophisticated and rational approach would be:

"Currently, there is no empirically verified evidence whatsoever for the existence of God; ergo, it has not been proved that such a being exists and so, it follows that It does not exist."

Such a statement would also apply to the existence of a multiverse or bubble universe. But the statement, intelligently put as it is, leaves space for the existence of God, or the multiverse or multiple big bangs, to be proven to exist. However, going upon evidence, there is currently a lack of evidence and so, being intelligent humans, we can say that It doesn't exist; but this does not prevent any evidence from being later put forward to show that indeed, the being does exist.

I would do away with "Oh, there's so much evil in the world - therefore God cannot exist" which is essentially no better than "The world is so complex - therefore God exists".

Equally, it can be said "There is so much evil in the world - therefore only the Devil exists and good is an absence of evil". How can you disprove that? How can you prove that?


I completely understand what you're saying. There are a whole range of scientific reasons for why I don't believe in God and those were what definitely pushed me over when I was 18. I said I was agnostic for awhile, but recently I have just felt there is simply is no God.

The reason why my argument doesn't equate to the "the world is so complex" idea is that God is supposed to be a loving God. If I told you that Hitler was a loving leader, but saw everything he had done, we could say that he was not a loving dictator because of the horrible things he allowed happen. This is essentially what I'm saying about God. How can he be a loving, caring God, but allow so much pain and sorrow in this world? It goes against him fundamentally and serves to reason that either he doesn't exist or is not the God we think he is.

Asking me to prove or disapprove the Devil seem's rather illogical seeing as how you just said we can't (for God).

Also, why are my experiences not "intelligent" to you? An intelligent response for this subject area is completely subjective. I have many reasons that I can put fourth, but I chose to focus on one experience (with a few broad comments) I had rather then throwing a bunch of scientific reasons since everyone has heard them.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


There is nothing that anyone can say to completely remove the doubt; it can only go away by faith. But this is the way it is said in the bible.

There is a promise that man will not be tested anything more than he can stand up against. And as impossible as this sounds now is the time for God. Prayer that God will be there to keep the family strong. Prayer for healing, prayer for God's will to be done. Prayer that God will come through on his promise not to give me more than I can handle.

I know this is not the warm and fuzzy answer you want. But there must be a God and he must let this stuff happen. Nothing else makes any more since than that.


I don't understand though. Why must he go through this? What benefit could this possibly serve him?

There are a lot of reasons for why things happen and they are not God related. Although science doesn't hold the answer to everything yet, it has been continually unveiling the truths and reasons behind this world we live in. God however, has done nothing to prove anything, at least not to me.
edit on 2-3-2013 by StruggleTogether because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Oannes
You can't blame the Creatrix for problems we have created. Humans were given a cure for every disease that exists. Its called nature. We chose to be ignorant and pay that price. You have free will. We could have, and still can create Eden on Earth. And yet we poison the air, water and food and expect to stay healthy. We did it to ourselves. She has no hand in our suffering.
edit on 2-3-2013 by Oannes because: (no reason given)

Wait, wait, wait...

Humans were given a cure for every disease that exists?

If "god" is so perfect then why do diseases exist in the first place? I mean it just seems kind of silly doesn't it? "I have just created the universe, with all these billions of planets, and stars, and moons to orbit the planets. Now all I have to to do is populate that little blue planet down there with sentient life... and voila! My masterpiece is comple... oh. Oh no, I forgot all about all that diabetes, and cancer, and all those other pesky little ailments. Silly me."



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by StruggleTogether

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


There is nothing that anyone can say to completely remove the doubt; it can only go away by faith. But this is the way it is said in the bible.

There is a promise that man will not be tested anything more than he can stand up against. And as impossible as this sounds now is the time for God. Prayer that God will be there to keep the family strong. Prayer for healing, prayer for God's will to be done. Prayer that God will come through on his promise not to give me more than I can handle.

I know this is not the warm and fuzzy answer you want. But there must be a God and he must let this stuff happen. Nothing else makes any more since than that.


I don't understand though. Why must he go through this? What benefit could this possibly serve him?

There are a lot of reasons for why things happen and they are not God related. Although science doesn't hold the answer to everything yet, it has been continually unveiling the truths and reasons behind this world we live in. God however, has done nothing to prove anything, at least not to me.


The bible talks about two existences. One here physical and one eternal. Here the laws dictate that we learn lessons and that we must trust that there is some point even if we can't see it. The promise is that in our next existence all of the pain and anguish will be gone and we will be immortal there.

The point of death should be one of Joy and sadness. Sadness not because we have lost something but because we have been temporarily separated from someone. But the separation is only temporary and from a spiritual since God says the Kingdom of heaven is within you. So it is likely the spirit of the dying loved one never truly leaves you but rather presents itself to you in a spiritual since because it returns to the creator in heaven.

This concept can be backed up by the many people that claim that lost loved one's speak to them. I imagine it is possible for God to communicate to us through the spirit of our lost loved one's when that is the most loving approach to bring us comfort.

Kind of like the movie "P.S." I love you. Somehow she could still feel him there for as long as her spirit needed him there.

The only part I am certain of is the immortality of the soul. So if this is a test that we experience for a short while so that eternity can be revealed to us, then I can accept the test. If you cannot see eternity than the test will make no since.

The test life, the answer "do love, don’t just think love". And believe that God created all of this, and know that if this is it than God is not love, but if heaven is real then God most certainly is love. 100 years of this for eternity of peace and rest. I'll sign up for that test as many times as he will let me, even if I have to feel pain in the process.

It comes down to faith, do you believe in your immortality? You are a son of the immortal God.
edit on 2-3-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
The bible talks about two existences. One here physical and one eternal. Here the laws dictate that we learn lessons and that we must trust that there is some point even if we can't see it. The promise is that in our next existence all of the pain and anguish will be gone and we will be immortal there.

The point of death should be one of Joy and sadness. Sadness not because we have lost something but because we have been temporarily separated from someone. But the separation is only temporary and from a spiritual since God says the Kingdom of heaven is within you. So it is likely the spirit of the dying loved one never truly leaves you but rather presents itself to you in a spiritual since because it returns to the creator in heaven.

This concept can be backed up by the many people that claim that lost loved one's speak to them. I imagine it is possible for God to communicate to us through the spirit of our lost loved one's when that is the most loving approach to bring us comfort.

Kind of like the movie "P.S." I love you. Somehow she could still feel him there for as long as her spirit needed him there.

The only part I am certain of is the immortality of the soul. So if this is a test that we experience for a short while so that eternity can be revealed to us, then I can accept the test. If you cannot see eternity than the test will make no since.

The test life, the answer "do love, don’t just think love". And believe that God created all of this, and know that if this is it than God is not love, but if heaven is real then God most certainly is love. 100 years of this for eternity of peace and rest. I'll sign up for that test as many times as he will let me, even if I have to feel pain in the process.

It comes down to faith, do you believe in your immortality? You are a son of the immortal God.
edit on 2-3-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)


I'm still not understanding though. Why should there be two existences? If God intended for us to live forever then why not skip the first existence and just give us immortality? Why have such random acts of death like tsunami's, wars, disease, etc? There is no lesson to be learned in a child dying months after birth. That child wouldn't even be old enough to decide a religion. Where does he/she go if she does not believe because of their age? Hell?

As to the sadness of separation. I may see sadness in a different way then someone else. I would feel terribly sad at the passing of one of my loved ones, but what if one of my loved ones was a convicted criminal? What if they got killed after they committed a terrible act and took the lives of others? I would still miss them, but there is no way I would see them again because they'd not be admitted to Heaven/a peaceful afterlife. Why even be seperated in the first place? Should a parent take away a child's favorite toy, for no good reason (I could understand it as punishment) and give it back to them later? What is the good in that?

I still keep falling back on the idea that religion is just a coping mechanism. I'm sure that as I get older I will find the idea of death harder and harder to deal with; the idea that there is nothing after we are gone. Believing that there is an afterlife certainly makes the transition between life and death easier, but I don't know if I should believe in something just because it makes things easier.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 06:26 PM
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I can certainly see why you cannot bring yourself to believe in such a God. The questions as to why God did this, or why did he let kids die, etc., etc. are obviously good questions and really cannot be satisfactorily answered for many people - especially those who have suffered such great losses - because the answers just don't sit right for many.

Of course, many people write off God based on such logic, and that is completely understandable given their inherited ideas about God. However, it is worth considering whether the model of God as some "Great All-Powerful Other" is actually true. Is the Divine an actual "Other"? How can the Divine Reality actually be separate from anything or anyone?

Presuming that there is a God separate from us - like almost all religious and spiritual traditions do presume - why do we then assume that such a Super-Entity created all the worlds? There are many threads on this website alone dealing with this presumption that God exists or does not exist, but almost everyone addresses this model based on God as "Other", a kind of "Super-Entity" - somewhere else, but somehow everywhere.

Why do we assume that if such a God exists, he causes everything to happen? What about the Divine Reality as Unconditional Consciousness? Unconditional Indivisible Conscious Light would not have a causal relationship to the world by definition. So what about the consideration that all conditional realms arise in the Acausal Unconditional Divine Reality?

And isn't such a presumption that God is the Great Other actually based in the same presumption that we are separate from all others? Have we inspected this presumption fully? There are many myths we inherit and presume as real, absolute truths even - such as the world, and everyone in it, are separate from oneself. What about this basic myth of the separate ego-I that has created all this presumed separation, including God as the Great Other?

So I am glad you are open to considering other possibilities before you give up on the Divine altogether.
edit on 2-3-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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god is busy he has a whole universe to take care of he doesn`t have time to micromanage every second of every life here on earth.
The bible says that the entire life span of a man is but the blink of an eye to god,our entire 80 or 90 years of life on this planet is less than 1 second in god time.
in the grand scheme of eternity 1 second is nothing, so does it make sense to think that god is going to micro manage our lives and intervene in them just to save us from 1 second of pain and discomfort?

I imagine it`s kind of like when a baby gets a vaccination, it`s just a quick little prick with a needle and in the grand scheme of the baby`s entire life it`s really insignificant, but to the baby it`s the worst pain that has ever happened to him in his short life and probably seems like it will never end.by the time he is 50 years old he won`t even remember getting the vaccine and he sure won`t remember the pain.

a million years from now we won`t remember the pain and turmoils of our lives here on earth.
so, i think that preventing us from experiencing pain and turmoil here on earth is probably pretty low on gods priority list.
edit on 2-3-2013 by Tardacus because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by StruggleTogether
 

Greetings, StruggleTogether.

I would like to address all of your points, but I will try to keep it short. I understand there are always more details, but if you would like to address me directly, we can keep a decent conversation up; without resorting to arguments.

I am 20 years old, and was raised Christian. I am currently a Messianic, which is to say, I follow the teachings of Christ and believe in the Bible, and in God, and in Christ as the Son of God. I also am studying and attempting to practice certain Jewish feasts, which is why I consider myself Messianic.

I have studied several different religions as well, from a young age - like you. Yet, it did not dampen my beliefs in Christ, like you said it did for you - truly, I believe that it was not the act of studying other forms of religion that set you apart from the Church, but that you had already become distant from them - as you stated, you stopped going at 16.

Now, you state that by age 18 you were certain there was no God, or at the very least, did not agree with organized religion. On the latter matter, good! I disagree with organized religion too. Though I attended a non-denominational church (rarely), there were still matters that I disagreed on with them. As of last year, I attended church only 4 times, and this year, not once. Regarding this statement:


One does not need to go to church to listen to someone teach them about their God.

I agree! Pastors are still only men, and as of such, are fallible. None of us can claim we have all the answers, when we truly don't. But that does not mean we are incapable of knowing truth. We just have to study, and if we are serious about it, we will learn - but ONLY if we keep an open mind, and an open heart.

Now, in regards to your story about Will and Lauren, I was touched by it - for I experienced a similar matter, with my own mother.

My mother was diagnosed with Leukemia in 2008, and went into remission after a year of chemo. We thought it was beat. In 2011, however, it returned in full force. Doctors had told us that she would have merely a month to live when she was diagnosed (in January), but only if she received chemotherapy treatment. We refused, and wished for her to remain at home. Because she would not receive Chemo, doctors had insisted she would only live a week or two.

She survived without medication of any kind, for 7 more months. She was fine, able to talk, move around, and spend time with family for the entirety of those 7 months, until the last 3 days. We even went to the casino's for her 60th birthday party, in July.

Now, when she passed, did we curse God and lose our faith? On the contrary, it grew us closer. We had a better understanding of life, and a new appreciation for family. We miss her, yes, but we cannot say that God did not have a hand in her life - a positive hand.

In 2005, my mother had become septic - her body turning into poison, and her organs shutting down one by one. Under normal circumstances, a person has a 50% chance of survival, WITH medication. Remember that. After about a month of her suffering, the doctors said her chances dropped to 5%, and were dropping rapidly. A week later, we were told she would not make it out alive.

Now, she could not speak, as she had tubes in her mouth, but wrote down that she was in pain. My father had asked the nurse if anything could be done, and she had told us that my mother had NO circulation, and medication was not working; in fact she had not been on anti-biotics for 2 days.

So, we gathered around her, laid hands on her, and prayed. My father led us, and we asked for relief of pain. After we prayed, we felt heat enter into her body, and her vitals had kicked up from 18/2 to 80/25, and were rapidly increasing. Her pain was gone, her vitals returned to normal, and a week later she was released.

No medication. Power of prayer.

So then, the God I believe in has had a hand in my life these many years; and has always proven himself to be just and good. Why then, do you believe in such a terrible, horrendous God?

Simply put, because there are only two powers in control of this world - that of God, and that of the Devil. Not once have you mentioned Satan, and I feel you really should do some research onto just how he works. He will cause destruction, sickness, disease, and evil to run rampant. Is God not capable of preventing Satan? He certainly can, and he certainly has, in many circumstances. Those "children starving in Africa" are not left alone. Thousands of missionaries who believe in God are aiding them, even to this day, and they risk their lives doing so.

Why believe in God? Because God is on the side of Good, and to forsake God, is to forsake Good, and beckon in Evil. I have run out of room, but I will leave it at this for now, for any questions you have.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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If God intended for us to live forever then why not skip the first existence and just give us immortality?


Because God intends on making a perfect being. You cannot make perfection instantaneously. Righteousness can only come from those who have the ability to disobey; i.e., Free will. Through trials, we find joy. Christians would go gladly to their deaths, as I know I would.

Just like gold, when it is mined from caves, it is basically a clump of dirt; it has to be refined, with fire. So do us, who are like dirt, and must be purged through fire, to refine us. We must learn right and wrong, and choose wisely.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 


Her pain was gone, her vitals returned to normal, and a week later she was released.

No medication. Power of prayer.

So then, the God I believe in has had a hand in my life these many years; and has always proven himself to be just and good. Why then, do you believe in such a terrible, horrendous God?


Easy.

This god is capable of healing all but only chooses to heal a select few. He answered your prayers, but let someone else's loved one die from the same ailment despite the same faith and prayer. He answers some prayers, yet not the prayers of the holocaust victims.

You think it's great this god would intervene and help you. It's actually quite horrendous. What about everyone else.

Now. I don't believe in prayer or a biblical version of god.... so I don't actually believe 'god' is horrendous, just the idea of what you're describing.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
This god is capable of healing all but only chooses to heal a select few. He answered your prayers, but let someone else's loved one die from the same ailment despite the same faith and prayer. He answers some prayers, yet not the prayers of the holocaust victims.

You think it's great this god would intervene and help you. It's actually quite horrendous. What about everyone else.

Now. I don't believe in prayer or a biblical version of god.... so I don't actually believe 'god' is horrendous, just the idea of what you're describing.



He answered your prayers, but let someone else's loved one die from the same ailment despite the same faith and prayer.

That is a statement you cannot prove.

Aside from that, my loved one did die, several years later albeit, but still tasted death. Was my faith burdened when that occurred? No, it was strengthened.

Perhaps when God said obey and believe, he meant it. The world says, "I'll believe it when I see it." and God says, "Believe, and THEN I'll show you."

He isn't going to make it easy on anyone. To say that my family had it easy, would be a lie. We all have to struggle and face evils of life. Why God choose to answer our prayer that day, I knowest not. What I do know, is that my family has remained faithful to Him all these years, and perhaps that is the reason it is said, in Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

I saw many families praying that night, when my mother was moved to a new room they called "the Death Ward". 6 people that night were rolled out, deceased. Their families prayed, certainly. To which god? Unbeknownst. It's not for me to declare who is worthy to receive their prayers answered, because I know, for a fact, that I am undeserving of any of this.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by StruggleTogether

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by StruggleTogether
 


There is nothing that anyone can say to completely remove the doubt; it can only go away by faith. But this is the way it is said in the bible.

There is a promise that man will not be tested anything more than he can stand up against. And as impossible as this sounds now is the time for God. Prayer that God will be there to keep the family strong. Prayer for healing, prayer for God's will to be done. Prayer that God will come through on his promise not to give me more than I can handle.

I know this is not the warm and fuzzy answer you want. But there must be a God and he must let this stuff happen. Nothing else makes any more since than that.


I don't understand though. Why must he go through this? What benefit could this possibly serve him?

There are a lot of reasons for why things happen and they are not God related. Although science doesn't hold the answer to everything yet, it has been continually unveiling the truths and reasons behind this world we live in. God however, has done nothing to prove anything, at least not to me.
edit on 2-3-2013 by StruggleTogether because: (no reason given)


Everything that can cure all ills is available on this planet, guess where, it is plant based. Tibetan Buddists know this, why do they hide this hidden knoweledge, why did the Chinese invade Tibet? to capture knoweledge, not just their stores of Gold, Tibet holds the answer for so many things.

Your God as you know IT has been vanquished. You have a new one now, ONE that is more creative and less self serving. This is the creator of the other recalcatrant child. Things will change and are so doing as we speak.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Out of Body experiences that have been so heavily researched point to life of the soul existing after the death by definition of the body . These were credible cases .



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 09:52 PM
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First of all let me tell you that I feel your pain. I have a somewhat similar story and I know how hard it is to “lose your faith”. I can tell you that as you get older things should make more sense. Although I agree somewhat with the naivety that lonewolf pointed out,

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
So basically God doesn't exist because bad stuff happens that right? Didn't pay much attention in church did you? You're still young and naive, give it about 12 years and when you start drowning in your sorrows and grief, maybe when you contemplate blowing your brains out because your life never mattered from the beginning, maybe then you will be ready to start listening to Jesus, then you'll start learning something. Should that day ever come, hit your knees and ask him to forgive you of your sins and ask him to reveal himelf to you.

I do not at all concur with him in his assessments of your future. The way he delivered his message proves categorically, that he doesn't pay much attention in church either. Moreover, it proves he worries too much about what he learns in church and hasn't spent enough time working out his “own salvation with fear and trembling”. This approach is deplorable. Not mention, it backfires if you have a wonderful and satisfying life. What's your motive for turning to Christ then? Christ is only for the idiots who make a wreck of their lives?

This being said, let me walk through what I got out of your post.


Originally posted by StruggleTogether

I am 19 years old and was raised Christian. Around the age of 16 I stopped going to church as often and began reading more about all kinds of religions.



Perhaps if you told us what sort of “Christian” you were it would help us understand more precisely what angle you're approaching this from. There is a world of difference between the denominations and a Catholic is in no way a Baptist.



I have always seen religion as a personal pursuit of faith in God. One does not need to go to church to listen to someone teach them about their God.


Both of these statements are true. However, they are not sympathetic. Religion is a man-made structure of beliefs based on an presupposition of the perceived nature of God. Religion doesn't intrinsically mean a personal relationship with God, but it should. I am sure you were aware of that and you only meant only what you said. One recommend reading that will probably blow your mind is a selection from Ludwig Feurebach called, “Religion as Illusion” from his “The Essence of Christianity”. Read the one translated by George Elliot. It's stunning.



What kind of just God would let this happen to a family? I don't want to hear the response "everything happens for a reason" because there is no reason for this. For the guilt this father will feel when his wife dies thinking he wasn't with her enough, for the pain he will feel when his kids get older and blame him for not being around when mom was dying, and for the burden he will have trying to raise the family on his own. There is absolutely nothing positive that can come of this that wouldn't be better with his wife still around. Nothing.


I am going to try to say this with as much human love and compassion as I can because I can see that these events have moved you in a very deep way. First of all, know this, that there is no correlation between good people/good happenings and bad people/bad happenings outside of natural laws of cause and effect. If you live your life in a selfish state as lonewolf admittedly did, then you will invariably spiral into depression as every last hope you had flees you and every good friend turns their back. This has nothing to do with sin. It's cause and effect. If you live a life of debauchery and get stricken with cancers and venereal disease due to the choices in lifestyle that you made, this is again, cause and effect. It is not sin.

The friend of your father's got cancer do to cause and effect. Not because of lifestyle choices (I'm guessing, since you didn't mention anything to make us assume such) but because of the fact that she is a woman living in the 21st century when this sort of thing is becoming the genetic regularity rather than the exception. It is not her fault, not the fault of a God or devil. Plain and simple.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 09:53 PM
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And truly my brother, understand this, that if you don't grasp the fact that good can still come out of this, you too will be eaten by a cancer of a different sort. This is your opportunity to get in there and make a difference. You have a connection through your father, so get in and make yourself available to the family, and specifically the children. You seem to be worried most about how they will handle this and how they will come to blame their father. If this is your human concern, then you are obligated to act on it as best you can. Be part of the solution. If you don't, you will hate this make-believe God even more, and your life will be crippled for it.


If I am wrong and there is a God, then I refuse to believe in him. I refuse to believe in an all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent God that willingly allows this to happen, not just to this family, but many, many others. A God that sends those who do not believe in him to Hell, an eternity of suffering.


If you understand that there has to be a governing attribute to the Christian God, and that the only attribute that makes the whole of the theology synergistic is Holiness, then this sort of thing would make far more sense to you. I do not believe in God. But if I did the most logically sound concept that I can see that would be in harmony with the totality of the scripture, both old and new testament, would be a Holy God. If I can discount scripture completely (as I do) and still felt the need to believe in God (which I do not) I feel I would be inclined to think of God they way Charles Hartshorne does. I highly recommend reading his ”Time, Death, and Everlasting Life” (Chapter 10 of “The Logic of Perfection, 1962) if you want a balanced and not so dogmatic approach to considering ideals like reward and punishment, heaven and hell.



I cannot and will not believe in such a horrible God. If there is a God, I will have nothing to do with him. I can see what he has done all around us and I cannot imagine someone as powerful as God allowing it to happen unless they were terribly cruel.


Again, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think you truly understand the arguments made by those who would defend this God. If it isn't enough to accept this God based on all the good done in His name then it isn't enough to reject Him based on all the evil done in His name either. You must be fair. If you wish to reject the idea of God you must be ready to dig deeper than this and find more substantial reasons for doing so. This is my clarion call to you, a fellow atheist. Dig deeper. Make stronger connections that lead to more steadfast conclusions.


Why do we need to believe in a God? Why can't we just practice being decent human beings? Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Help someone because it is nice. Don't help someone because its what your religion says is the right thing, help someone because they need help.


These are actually, much more difficult question then they first appear. You make them hypothetically, as if they answer themselves, but they don't. Why do we need to believe in God? Well, for that answer I recommend Daniel Dannett and his book, Breaking The Spell.
Why can't we just practice being decent human beings? Well, for starters, what makes someone “decent”? In other words, what determines “good”? For this you must plumb the very depths of mankind’s humanistic knowledge. For this you must acquaint yourself with all that is humanity in it's totality. Try reading some David Hume.


Help someone because it is nice.

The deeper issue here is whether or not any action is truly motivated from altrusitic intention. Is there such a thing as a completely selfless act? I don't think there is. For a good view of these concepts pick up some Neitzsche. Specifically, read the first part of “Dawn of the Day”.


I have started reading more about the teachings of Buddhism because I find a lot of them to align with what I believe. I don't believe in a heaven or hell.


I advise you to keep a distance. Buddhism is no innocent lamb.

I believe that we live on through the memories of others. Why should we not make those memories the best we can? Fill the people around you with happy memories, reach out to a random stranger and change their life forever. They will remember what you did. Surround yourself with your friends and family and just be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Not so you can go vacation in Heaven for eternity.


Again, please read Hartshorne's “The Logic of Perfection”, chapter 10.






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