Thought Experiment Regarding God, page 4

reply to post by ImaFungi

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When you get a chance purchase a ripe tomato and get a center cut/slice. Now before you eat th slice suspend your sensory observations. You are not about to eat a slice of tomato you are about to eat your favorite slice of pizza, in relation to toppings and pizza place.

Try this one...

I am going to present a list of words and for each word I want you to generate a mental image

Scroll down slowly and as you generate mental images note not only the time it takes but also differences in the type of images that are generated.

There will be 10 words beginning now, you use the arrow on your computer that points down there will be three spaces between each word.


House


Car


Elevator


Kindness


Boat


Hate


Football


Love


Worm


Pleasure


Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai

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House- ... I know all about a house. I could describe a house in a million ways, it is already imbedded in my understanding of what a house is and what it means, what it can be made of, where they can be, what can be in them


Car- same thing as house... I dont know too many technical things about cars as far as their parts and stuff, but I know a general bit about cars

elevator- yep, i know what an elevator is

kindness- I understand kindness a bit. Someone can be kindness with a hidden motive, or be kind to be kind, or be kind because they feel they have to, or be kind because they want to or it makes them feel good, or be kind because they like when people are kind to them so if everyone is kind to everyone that is good

boat- yep, know what a boat is

hate- I understand hate, the opposite of good, discomfort, not liking a thing, or situation, not liking something. it could be physical, intellectual, simple, complex, abstract, straightforward, unjustified, rational.

football- know about it, like watching, fun to toss one...or kick one

love- opposite of hate, comfort, enjoyment, abstract feelings, possession, desiree, instincts, need, friendship, bond,

worm- I am surprised about nature abit, that a lot of creatures exist in the conditions they do, deal with it and live. I guess from a certain perspective the same can be said about a human. you are born as a life and your instincts and body force you to live, because there is no easy way out, and the place isnt all bad.. but to be a worm, crawling around in the dark, with bugs and decay,in the dirt, to me I have no desiree to experience that.

pleasure- too much of a 'good' thing can be bad. in moderation pleasure is good. but there can be bad consequences if you are addicted to pleasure and seek it constantly as an escape from dealing with a moment without pleasure (i.e. vices, drugs,etc) , this is like the happy pill, if you had a pleasure button, would you ever have a reason to stop pushing it. this is good, this feels good, this feels good, this feels good....hmm.. im kinda over that feeling now, is there any good feelings left?

reply to post by ImaFungi

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Have you ever seen Physicist Nassim Harrieman's work? He has a movie called "Black Whole" (heres a link, vimeo.com/43083752) and plenty of stuff on youtube where he presents a scientific way of viewing reality, that points towards the concept of everything being One. Also, if you go to conscioushugs.com, there's a forum there discussing several papers written that explain the mechanics of the physical universe around us, information that was suppressed by the government about space/time, zero point energy, etc. The topics written there are based heavily on Dewey Larson's Reciprocal Systems approach to science. All very interesting. Hopefully this helps you out! I could try and explain all of it... but those guys do a much better job and have already typed it all up

reply to post by ImaFungi

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Thinking about a boat for example tends to generate a generic image of a boat. While, thinking about an emotion often results in one considering past experiences, where one experienced that emotion. The brain processes much more information when considering a feeling than a solid object.

To summarize: there is more than enough non-random activity occuring in the Universe to make consciousness a factor in respect to what the Universe is.

Originally posted by joeyv23
reply to post by ImaFungi

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Have you ever seen Physicist Nassim Harrieman's work? He has a movie called "Black Whole" (heres a link, vimeo.com/43083752) and plenty of stuff on youtube where he presents a scientific way of viewing reality, that points towards the concept of everything being One. Also, if you go to conscioushugs.com, there's a forum there discussing several papers written that explain the mechanics of the physical universe around us, information that was suppressed by the government about space/time, zero point energy, etc. The topics written there are based heavily on Dewey Larson's Reciprocal Systems approach to science. All very interesting. Hopefully this helps you out! I could try and explain all of it... but those guys do a much better job and have already typed it all up

Thanks a lot, will check it. I have heard of that guy. Maybe you can start a thread discussing those suppressed physics and Dewey Larson stuff?

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by ImaFungi

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Thinking about a boat for example tends to generate a generic image of a boat. While, thinking about an emotion often results in one considering past experiences, where one experienced that emotion. The brain processes much more information when considering a feeling than a solid object.

To summarize: there is more than enough non-random activity occuring in the Universe to make consciousness a factor in respect to what the Universe is.

Hm possibly. When thinking of emotions I didnt really imagine my past experiences or emotions, just general and specific, simple and complex definitions and qualities that relate to the emotions. I personally dont dwell much in my memories, I used to when I was younger, spend lots of time in memories, but now I dont seem to even retain details of my memories, because im so focused on other information and..stuff.

Do you think the universe is deterministic, yet consciousness is the only thing that can 'control', that can change fate, be novel?

reply to post by ImaFungi

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I think of God as more or less a Farmer who created the conditions for life to form. My tendency is to treat predetermination as more or less a generic component of reality.

A rather interesting point I find in that regard with respect to the Bible is in relation to the Book of Ezequiel, where God tells him, that the Israelites will be returned to the promised land by Gods army. Given the physical description of the promised land, the Israelites were returned to that territory by the combined forces that defeated Germany, Italy and Japan during WW2.

However I do consider that all the proverbial roads are leading inn the same direction so that the end result is always the same.

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by ImaFungi

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I think of God as more or less a Farmer who created the conditions for life to form. My tendency is to treat predetermination as more or less a generic component of reality.

A rather interesting point I find in that regard with respect to the Bible is in relation to the Book of Ezequiel, where God tells him, that the Israelites will be returned to the promised land by Gods army. Given the physical description of the promised land, the Israelites were returned to that territory by the combined forces that defeated Germany, Italy and Japan during WW2.

However I do consider that all the proverbial roads are leading inn the same direction so that the end result is always the same.

K, cool. I was more saying in the way that all the material and energy of the universe, since the beginning of the universe, was determined by the laws of physics and every event that happened just before it, to do exactly what they did. The only exception being, what we know of as consciousness, which has what we know of as free will. So stuff happens in the galaxy, and the laws of physics determine that an asteroid will be shot off into our direction, and the asteroid isnt choosing to do anything, but it is forced by the laws of nature, and its position relative to all other things to travel the path it was put in. Say this asteroid is heading directly towards us. We can let it hit us, or we can shoot it down, because we have the ability to interject with the determined events, and to an extent, create our own.

reply to post by ImaFungi

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Of course one can look at a particular asteroid and say the reason it exist is because of the Big Bang. The idea that there is life on earth can also be construed as the the same result and that also is an expression of order. They do not call it Quantum theory anymore they call it Quantum Mechanics and for a good reason. Despite what to us in relation to Quantum Mechanics seems to be a random process does by itself, does not make it so.

Quantum Mechanics could very well be non-random, just beyond our current comprehension to contemplate it that way.

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by ImaFungi

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Of course one can look at a particular asteroid and say the reason it exist is because of the Big Bang. The idea that there is life on earth can also be construed as the the same result and that also is an expression of order. They do not call it Quantum theory anymore they call it Quantum Mechanics and for a good reason. Despite what to us in relation to Quantum Mechanics seems to be a random process does by itself, does not make it so.

Quantum Mechanics could very well be non-random, just beyond our current comprehension to contemplate it that way.

Yep. I didnt mean just on asteroid, I mean all stars,planets,asteroids,gas clouds,etc. All material that is not conscious. Every bit of material that isnt controlled by a conscious being that can make a choice from second to second. So unless a form of conscious life interfered with the position of stars and or planets, the meteorite that hit over russia a few weeks ago was determined to happen since the beginning of the universe.

reply to post by ImaFungi

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From the perspective of a single photon of light, the whole universe is touching in a causeless, timeless, spaceless domain of all information. Therefore the apparent causes and effects in spacetime could be the result of a primordial photon. "Let there be light and there WAS light."

Every single chemical reaction boils down to the emission or absorption of a single photon of light.

Light is the first/last cause of our universe, which is like the crystallization of light within the zero point field aka the akashic field which is fully informed in eternity.

reply to post by ImaFungi

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...can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality?

Illusions. The above is a illusuory perspective you've chosen as a stance. It is also relative.

Not everyone experiences the "cut off". Some experience being connected to the whole of existence with no borders to be found.

At the end the answers are beyond the limits of logic & reason. We can't grasp the size of our own galaxy, let alone universe, let aloe the Universes that are next door.

Brownie points for wrestling with it all though. This is how I began to have my first serious transcendent epiphanies in life, by wrestling with the Grand Master

reply to post by ImaFungi

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I have really enjoyed your thread and posts within so far. Honestly, I think it's the best I have ever read of anything. So thanks.

And before I go on, I would like to note that the only true limitation I would put on God is that he cannot create if he has destroyed himself completely. Anything else imaginable would be possible...

To answer your first question:

I would classify reality as God's reality, and in its true form, reality is not subjective. I think that if something exists in our “reality” then it must exist, as something, within God's reality.

To better understand what I'm saying, consider that dreams are really mental images, that are really electrical impulses, that are really electrons, that are really some form of subatomic energy, that is really ______. (fill in the blank with something from God's reality)...

Meaning: a dream is reality to the dreamer, but in the true reality, it is that fill in the blank something that must exist in God's reality.

To the real-time data question:

I think the real-time data feed's properties would be based solely on what God wants. It may actually be detectable and be what all the prophets and great minds have referred to when they mentioned the aether or when they say they gained the knowledge from outside themselves. Whatever it is or is not would be up to God, though.

To the last question:
Idk about the last one - it's like the question can God make something so heavy he can't lift it. I would say it depends on what God wants. I would think that God has control over his reality as well as our own, and that he would have access to, or no access to, any reality he created based upon his desires. I heard a blind person say that they don't see white or black in their mind. There is just nothing at all there - no perception of any color or image at all. That is how I imagine God's reality - everything is nothing, except what God conceptualizes. Maybe if he chooses to create a reality he cannot access, and then goes to access it, he inadvertently picks up that enormously heavy object he created.

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Now some questions for you, since you are an awesome thinker:

Are you just playing in deep thought or are you trying to figure out which god, if any, is the God?

If there is a God and he wanted to be hidden, how would you go about looking for him if you had unlimited resources?

Read my thread's opening post and tell me if you think our God can be the first, within a simulated reality, to have evolved within an energy evolution simulation?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by ImaFungi

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From the perspective of a single photon of light, the whole universe is touching in a causeless, timeless, spaceless domain of all information. Therefore the apparent causes and effects in spacetime could be the result of a primordial photon. "Let there be light and there WAS light."

Every single chemical reaction boils down to the emission or absorption of a single photon of light.

Light is the first/last cause of our universe, which is like the crystallization of light within the zero point field aka the akashic field which is fully informed in eternity.

Hm, im not sure about that. Causeless,timeless, spaceless? To me that sounds senseless to say. It takes light to be caused, and time and space to travel from the sun to earth, so certainly that photon traveling from the sun to the earth can not see the entire universe (if it could see).

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by ImaFungi

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...can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality?

Illusions. The above is a illusuory perspective you've chosen as a stance. It is also relative.

Not everyone experiences the "cut off". Some experience being connected to the whole of existence with no borders to be found.

At the end the answers are beyond the limits of logic & reason. We can't grasp the size of our own galaxy, let alone universe, let aloe the Universes that are next door.

Brownie points for wrestling with it all though. This is how I began to have my first serious transcendent epiphanies in life, by wrestling with the Grand Master

Hm, ok. I dont know if you understand the motives of my inquiry, but ok. So the non illusory perspective of a stance you have chosen is that there is a grand master of this universe? Is it the grand master of the universes next door too?

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by ImaFungi

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I have really enjoyed your thread and posts within so far. Honestly, I think it's the best I have ever read of anything. So thanks.

Thank you. But I hope its not the best youve ever read

And before I go on, I would like to note that the only true limitation I would put on God is that he cannot create if he has destroyed himself completely. Anything else imaginable would be possible... Why do you assume anything else imaginable would be possible. That is assuming God can do anything and or everything, neither of which are conceptually and actually possible. For every one thing God could do or did do, there is an infinite amount of things he at that point didnt do, and so on. God would still be limited, its impossible to truly be limitless, because infinity never ends, its never graspable or attainable, its infinitely larger and more and greater then the largest, most, and greatest... and im sure even God would know this. These concepts im bringing up could be a reason for creating this universe, to try to study, or dwell in, or experiment with, or create a kingdom, that touches and remains with, a little slice of infinity. just on this earth alone, there are a lot of different actions going on every millisecond, every creatures life, and the choices they make and experiences they experience from moment to moment, all of human history, all of your memories and life.

To answer your first question:

I would classify reality as God's reality, and in its true form, reality is not subjective. I think that if something exists in our “reality” then it must exist, as something, within God's reality.

To better understand what I'm saying, consider that dreams are really mental images, that are really electrical impulses, that are really electrons, that are really some form of subatomic energy, that is really ______. (fill in the blank with something from God's reality)...

Meaning: a dream is reality to the dreamer, but in the true reality, it is that fill in the blank something that must exist in God's reality.

interesting. So this is kinda like a plato realm of form thing? with absolutes and stuff? So are you saying nothing in the universe can be novel or original, everything is a template, or based off of, some more primary, or simple, concept or 'programming' that God was aware of and used to create this creation? But how do you envision Gods reality in these statements? Is he just sitting around a bunch of tv monitors watching every miniscule space in the universe? you say, if something exists in our reality, it must exist in Gods reality. In human imagination and on tvs and computer monitors there exists all sorts of cartoons and abstract art, things that do not physically exist in reality, what of this?

To the real-time data question:

I think the real-time data feed's properties would be based solely on what God wants. It may actually be detectable and be what all the prophets and great minds have referred to when they mentioned the aether or when they say they gained the knowledge from outside themselves. Whatever it is or is not would be up to God, though.

Ok, so you are just saying, God created the universe, the universe is crazy cool and big and genius, so God has no limits? Earlier you said as long as God did not destroy himself, why would he do that (if hes all powerful and everything, can he do that?, if he did does that mean the universe is not ruled by God?).

To the last question:
Idk about the last one - it's like the question can God make something so heavy he can't lift it. I would say it depends on what God wants. I would think that God has control over his reality as well as our own, and that he would have access to, or no access to, any reality he created based upon his desires. I heard a blind person say that they don't see white or black in their mind. There is just nothing at all there - no perception of any color or image at all. That is how I imagine God's reality - everything is nothing, except what God conceptualizes. Maybe if he chooses to create a reality he cannot access, and then goes to access it, he inadvertently picks up that enormously heavy object he created.

interesting. I dont know about the blind thing, I have heard blind people do create maps of reality, using what they imagine and know of their dealing with day to day existence minus sight. Why was God so fortunate to be God, who choose God? Is it a specific personality? Could it be possible God is a robot or computer or machine of some kind? Could you imagine there being no God, is that a rational possibility in your mind, do you admit you dont know for sure?

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by ImaFungi

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Are you just playing in deep thought or are you trying to figure out which god, if any, is the God?

I think about ...everything a lot. Physics and philosophy. I hate mysteries, id rather know. I want to know the truth, I am upset I dont know the truth, and I think I can get closer to knowing the truth by thinking about potential truths, and seeing which ones cant be true, and seeing which ones have chances of being true. I can accept my fate of existing as my self in this world, but I feel naked in my ignorance in regards to what the heck is everything, where,when,who,how, and why. Oh and so, the questions I asked in my op, I believe are good questions to think about the possibilities of a God existing physically, and thinking about whether its possible for this universe to be a creation in Gods physical reality, and how that would be, what this universe could be in regard to God, and/or some ultimate reality. If this universe is the only stuff/thing that exists, thats just as strange as anything.

If there is a God and he wanted to be hidden, how would you go about looking for him if you had unlimited resources?

I would just hope that God was not evil. I would only be able to hope that he cared about me at all, or could use my potential to serve some purpose, I would hope we could be friends, I would hope he would show me the ropes, give me a job. I would just want to know what the deal is, what hes attempting to accomplish, why he wants to be hidden. If I had unlimited resources I would stop my search for God, I would then be God

Read my thread's opening post and tell me if you think our God can be the first, within a simulated reality, to have evolved within an energy evolution simulation?

Energy evolution simulation, what would that mean? What started this simulation, what is doing the simulating? where did the energy come from? A question I would have for God, why did he make the universe this way, allowing life to exist how it does and do what it does. Did God have a choice of the quality? If it is a simulation why not make it.. perfect, like how humans think of heaven, anything better then life on earth, and worse then life (hell). My only answer to that question, is either no god created the universe; this universe is only one of many all which represent different styles or aesthetics of potential creations from Gods point of view; or there is a good reason why we exist in the way we do, in the style universe, and can do what we do and are made as we are.

Some of the things you were mentioning reminded me of this video:

reply to post by ImaFungi

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Hm, ok. I dont know if you understand the motives of my inquiry, but ok. So the non illusory perspective of a stance you have chosen is that there is a grand master of this universe? Is it the grand master of the universes next door too?

The "Grand Master" is Non-dual, no separation, Infinity, existence itself, all things quantum, all possibilities, every Universe that ever has been, Is, and Ever will be.

This Infinite One, can be experienced directly, but is beyond what the mind can fathom

reply to post by ImaFungi

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If nothing but God can exists without God, wouldn't you say infinity is more limited to God, and not the other way around? Granted infinity is endlessness, and yes God has limits, such as creating himself for the first time, etc, but nearly everything else I would consider fair game for God.

I envision our reality as a realm of formless mist of God's breath, and God is standing over this mist viewing it. Sort of like you see your breath in the cold, only this breath is a bright light that appears to move ever so slightly if viewed from above by a human. It's movement being its evolution through the flow of eternity. Through God's eyes looking into the mist you would see all that has been and ever will be done, as he has a much different set of sensory receptors.

I consider the mist to be the words of God, and I believe it contains all the information our realm will ever produce. A good way to try to picture it is like matrix code and the matrix gang can see images but the movie goers only sees code. But then put that in reverse. We can see the code in the forms of matter but we cannot readily read the code or move the code without faith. I think people can read and sense the code and do so accidentally when they experience deja vu, or when they experience past lives, or have esp. I think if the code is viewed during the right circumstances it can produce ghosts/apparitions. I think demons and psychics openly read it to be able to know things about you. And I think demons and telepaths can will it to move or reshape it without having to touch it. With enough faith/will, anyone can move it while it is in the shape of a mountain or walk on it while it is in the form of water.

I don't think God would destroy himself, I was just using that as an example to show limitation. And I cannot imagine a world without a God. I think that without instruction there can be no structure. I don't think any protons, neutrons, electrons would have ever formed. We would still be in the form of God's word/code/energy without form.

Yes I can conceive of God being in a computer with us. It's certainly possible, but there still must be instructions and something to start that off. For all I know God is a robot but that wouldn't change him in my eyes. I see God as the creator of our realm. If God has a God then I think he must be some post human with no emotions. Someone who is only running a simulation to try to determine how their universe came about. That is to say, yes, we could possibly be a simulation inside a simulation. There seems to be a drive to produce something. That something being souls, concepts and information, or more energy. At least, that's what it appears to be to me.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by ImaFungi

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...can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality?

Illusions. The above is a illusuory perspective you've chosen as a stance. It is also relative.

Not everyone experiences the "cut off". Some experience being connected to the whole of existence with no borders to be found.
7
At the end the answers are beyond the limits of logic & reason. We can't grasp the size of our own galaxy, let alone universe, let aloe the Universes that are next door.

Brownie points for wrestling with it all though. This is how I began to have my first serious transcendent epiphanies in life, by wrestling with the Grand Master

Hm, ok. I dont know if you understand the motives of my inquiry, but ok. So the non illusory perspective of a stance you have chosen is that there is a grand master of this universe? Is it the grand master of the universes next door too?

"Grand master" was a play on words, I used to refer to the one infinity which exists everywhere and is conscious and is the same underlying principle to the universes next door, and everywhere anywhere you can think of.

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