Love vs Tyranny

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posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yet, Jesus was speaking to Jews when he reminded them that they couldn't serve Mammon, wealth, and his Father God. Wasn't it Mammon that the money changers in the Jewish Temple were representing.




posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Do you consider that an authoritative source?



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by windword
It is my contention, as well as others, that Jesus' mission was to restore the Torah, which Paul has made obsolete.

What others? I've never heard that before, and it's certainly not supported by any New Testament scripture or writing of any early church father.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yet, Jesus was speaking to Jews when he reminded them that they couldn't serve Mammon, wealth, and his Father God. Wasn't it Mammon that the money changers in the Jewish Temple were representing.


I would say yes. But there's no indication they openly were worshipping Mammon. The moneychangers were selling sacrifices against the Torah which stated the sacrifice must come from one's own flock of animals, their best one.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword
 


Do you consider that an authoritative source?



Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
It is my contention, as well as others, that Jesus' mission was to restore the Torah, which Paul has made obsolete.

What others? I've never heard that before, and it's certainly not supported by any New Testament scripture or writing of any early church father.


It's PBS. Yes I consider it an authorative source. And their citations back up my claims that other's also see the facts as I do!



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by windword
It's PBS. Yes I consider it an authorative source. And their citations back up my claims that other's also see the facts as I do!

Setting aside the source, which I have no opinion of, you are misrepresenting the claims of it.

From your linked article:


Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself.

Underlining is mine, but please explain how "can't be proven at all" equates to "seeing the facts as I do!"



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword
 


Do you consider that an authoritative source?



Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
It is my contention, as well as others, that Jesus' mission was to restore the Torah, which Paul has made obsolete.

What others? I've never heard that before, and it's certainly not supported by any New Testament scripture or writing of any early church father.


It's PBS. Yes I consider it an authorative source. And their citations back up my claims that other's also see the facts as I do!



I was just asking what you opinion of the source was that you linked. Since you've stated that ypu consider it authoritative, you'll be surprised to learn that despite your previous claims that Jesus and John were Essene there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim:


The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might…



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That's your interpretation.

Mine is that they were practicing "purity laws" incorrectly and blasphemously for profit, Mammon.


Then Jesus went into the Temple, threw out everyone who was selling and buying in the Temple, and overturned the moneychangers' tables and the chairs of those who sold doves.


What were doves? The symbol of the "Holy Spirit" of which it's blasphemy will not be forgiven in this life, or the next.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Haha, beat ya to it



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
It's PBS. Yes I consider it an authorative source. And their citations back up my claims that other's also see the facts as I do!

Setting aside the source, which I have no opinion of, you are misrepresenting the claims of it.

From your linked article:


Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself.

Underlining is mine, but please explain how "can't be proven at all" equates to "seeing the facts as I do!"


Ahh darn, you beat me to it.

I had to first get the opinion of wind whether she considered the link as an authoritative source first.

Anyways, good show ol chap. Isn't is sad how we apologists will read an entire link or source from a skeptic but when we link something we usually get attacks on the source without even addressing the information itself?



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know, the existence of Jesus can't be proven either.

However, there are a large number of worshipers, in the past and still today who have formed churches and societies based around the belief that Jesus was an Essene Master, the Righteous Teacher of the prophecies and taught The Essene Way.

EDIT:


The Essenes considered themselves to be a separate people--not because of external signs like skin color, hair color, etc., but because of the illumination of their inner life and their knowledge of the hidden mysteries of nature unknown to other men. They considered themselves to be also a group of people at the center of all peoples--because everyone could become part of it, as soon as they had successfully passed the selective tests.

They thought, and rightly so, that they were the heirs of God's sons and daughters of old, the heirs to their great ancient civilization. They possessed their advanced knowledge and worked assiduously in secret for the triumph of the light over the darkness of the human mind.

They felt that they had been entrusted with a mission, which would turn out to be the founding of Christianity and of western civilization. They were supported in this effort by highly evolved beings who directed the brotherhood. They were true saints, Masters of wisdom, hierophants of the ancient arts of mastery.
www.essenespirit.com...
edit on 2-3-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Haha, beat ya to it


Not exactly sport. That was the purpose behind me trying to ascertain Windword's level of security with that being a reliable source of information.

But fine, Ill send you a cookie.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know, the existence of Jesus can't be proven either.


Historians don't share that view. Even atheist ones.


However, there are a large number of worshipers, in the past and still today who have formed churches and societies based around the belief that Jesus was an Essene Master, the Righteous Teacher of the prophecies and taught The Essene Way.


And that's why I asked if your opinion of that source is authoritative. You affirmed your contention that in fact it was. To which was pointed out that the idea has no proof at all. Not "some", but none at all.
edit on 2-3-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That's your interpretation.

Mine is that they were practicing "purity laws" incorrectly and blasphemously for profit, Mammon.


Then Jesus went into the Temple, threw out everyone who was selling and buying in the Temple, and overturned the moneychangers' tables and the chairs of those who sold doves.


What were doves? The symbol of the "Holy Spirit" of which it's blasphemy will not be forgiven in this life, or the next.


That isn't my interpretation. That's exactly what the Torah states. The sacrifice must be unblemished and come from the family's own flock.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know, the existence of Jesus can't be proven either.


Historians don't share that view. Even atheist ones.


Bullocks! I can cite numerous scholars that will claim that the Biblical character of Jesus is an combination of various teachers and myths.



However, there are a large number of worshipers, in the past and still today who have formed churches and societies based around the belief that Jesus was an Essene Master, the Righteous Teacher of the prophecies and taught The Essene Way.


And that's why I asked if your opinion of that source is authoritative. You affirmed your contention that in fact it was. To which was pointed out that the idea has no proof at all. Not "some", but none at all.
edit on 2-3-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


Is was not my intention to prove that Jesus was an Essene, in that post, but to prove that Essenes thought the Jewish temple was run by wicked priests. The source is valid!



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know, the existence of Jesus can't be proven either.

There is a lot more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for your claim that he was one of the Essenes.


However, there are a large number of worshipers, in the past and still today who have formed churches and societies based around the belief that Jesus was an Essene Master

Once again, you are sorely misrepresenting the facts. There is hardly a "large number of worshipers" with a long standing tradition -- it is a minuscule movement that arose in the 20th Century, based purely on speculation -- as noted, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was an Essene, and plenty of counter evidence in the New Testament, an account written by people of the time, not 2,000 years later.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



Bullocks! I can cite numerous scholars that will claim that the Biblical character of Jesus is an combination of various teachers and myths.


Then I will point out that those "historians" are not following the four factors historians use for determining the legitimacy of a historical document.



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know, the existence of Jesus can't be proven either.


Historians don't share that view. Even atheist ones.


Bullocks! I can cite numerous scholars that will claim that the Biblical character of Jesus is an combination of various teachers and myths.

Apart from Richard Carrier? Scholars with actual degrees in history? (As opposed to the usual crackpots with degrees in Chiropractic, Liberal Arts or Computer Science) And these claims are in published academic literature, not dodgy websites?

Cite away!



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



Is was not my intention to prove that Jesus was an Essene, in that post, but to prove that Essenes thought the Jewish temple was run by wicked priests. The source is valid!


Oh I know already that it wasn't your intention, you didn't read it in it's entirety. And if the source is valid, which you affirmed twice now, then the claim that Jesus and JTB were Essene has no proof whatsoever. That would make it a wild arbitrary conjecture with zero evidence to support it.

edit on 2-3-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2013 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So that's why, you think, Jesus was so angry, because people were purchasing animals and not giving of their own? Do you think every family raised animals for sacrifice, or that some may have had to purchase animals?


12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.


This had nothing to do with the way in animals were procured. It was about blasphemy of the "Holy Spirit" in the Holy Temple!





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