Love vs Tyranny

Originally posted by windword
This is not a new concept. The Marcions also believed that Jesus presented a different God than Yahweh.

I suspect that you'll want to steer clear of Marcion -- he believed that the only truth in the Bible resided in the Epistles of Paul. The first Christian Canon (proposed) was his, which consisted of those books, a heavily edited version of Gospel of Luke and nothing else.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

The greatest Jewish and Roman historians of that era talk about Jesus. That's historical attestation. From non-Christian as well as hostile source attestation from the Talmuds. You'd think if He never existed the Talmuds would mention that once instead of arguing that He was a charlatan and blasphemer.

Hostile-source attestation is extremely compelling evidence.

Contemporary citations please, not something that was written in the 1st or 2nd century. Source? Links? Otherwise

reply to post by adjensen

Exodus 16
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Like I said, you are ignoring it.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Exodus 16
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Like I said, you are ignoring it.

Where does that say anything about gathering grain? It's talking about boiling and baking, not reaping.

reply to post by adjensen


Isn't bread made out of grain? You're splitting hairs here, stop lying to yourself.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Seems all sects of Judaism needed correction from their interpretation of corrupted Torah, that Jesus attempting to restore to it's correct state.

However, the Pharisees in the days of Jesus had changed the Sabbath into something it was never meant to be. In their desire to protect and to uphold the law, they built a hedge around the keeping of the Sabbath.

They had written up chapter upon chapter concerning what it meant to keep the Sabbath.

They taught that you should not look in a mirror on the Sabbath because you might be tempted to pluck out a grey hair and that would be reaping.

They said that you could only eat and egg which had been laid on the Sabbath if you killed the chicken for Sabbath-breaking.

A donkey could be led out of the stable on the Sabbath, but the harness and saddle had to be placed on him the day before.

An egg could not be boiled on the Sabbath, either by normal means or by putting it near a hot kettle or by wrapping it in a hot cloth or by putting it in the hot sand outside.

If the lights were on when the Sabbath came (Sabbath began at sundown), you could not blow them out. If they had not been lit in time, then you could not light them.

It was unlawful to move furniture on the Sabbath. There was an exception to this in that you were allowed to move a ladder on the Sabbath, but you could only move it four steps.

It was unlawful to wear any jewelry or ornaments on the Sabbath, since this might be construed as carrying a burden.

It was not permitted to wear false teeth on the Sabbath (that must have been a hit in the synagogue services).

You were allowed to eat radishes on the Sabbath, but you were warned against dipping them into salt because you might leave them in the salt too long and pickle them and this was considered to be Sabbath-breaking. The Pharisees actually had discussions as to how long it took to pickle a radish.

It was fine to spit on a rock on the Sabbath, but you could not spit on the ground, because that made mud and mud was mortar, and that was work.

If a woman got mud on her dress, she was to wait until it had dried and then she was permitted to crumple the dress in her hands one time and crush it and then shake it out once. If that did not do the trick, then she had to wear it.
www.angelfire.com...

reply to post by adjensen


I'm only citing him as an example to show that there have been people who thought that Jesus presented a god that was not Yahweh. I'm not a Marcion! LOL!

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Isn't bread made out of grain? You're splitting hairs here, stop lying to yourself.

Who's lying? I asked:

Show me the chapter and verse that says God created a law that says you can't reap grain on the Sabbath.

You've claimed to show where God prohibited baking bread. How is that the same thing? Were Jesus' disciples baking bread in that passage you asked about? Of course they weren't, so where is the chapter and verse that says that God created a law prohibiting the gathering of grain?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I'm only citing him as an example to show that there have been people who thought that Jesus presented a god that was not Yahweh. I'm not a Marcion! LOL!

There are people who've claimed that Jesus is an alien. There are people who've claimed that Hitler discovered America (a classic, lol.) There are people who claim that President Obama is the AntiChrist (that idiot is an ATS member )

In other words, there is always someone who claims something. But whether they have a valid reason to claim it, or not, that is not always true.

reply to post by adjensen


You obviously didn't read the passage closely enough. It says that Israelites went out on the Sabbath and attempted to gather bread/grain. When god found out about this he spoke to Moses saying that they had ignored his commands.

Why would god say that they had ignored his command if it was only about baking and boiling? He only said they had ignored his commands AFTER they went out to attempt to gather bread/grain. He was obviously angry at them for trying to gather bread/grain.

They never attempted to bake/boil the bread on the Sabbath because they never gathered any! So why was god mad if his only stipulation included baking/boiling?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Exodus 16
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Like I said, you are ignoring it.

Where does that say anything about gathering grain? It's talking about boiling and baking, not reaping.

Exoduc 12:27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

No gathering on the Sabbath!

reply to post by adjensen


As previously discussed in this thread, there is very good Biblical reason to believe that the God that Jesus introduced was not Yahweh. His god was Abba. Jesus rejected the tyranny of the Old Testament God.

Originally posted by windword
No gathering on the Sabbath!

Um...

That's Exodus 16, not 12.

And what were they gathering? Manna, delivered from God, not grain that grows in the field.

Where did God create a law prohibiting the gathering of grain?

reply to post by adjensen


Manna is bread and bread is grain! You're still splitting hairs and lying to yourself.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


How is "gathering bread" (a completed product) the same as "gathering grain" (a raw resource)?

Stop criticizing me for "splitting hairs" -- you're the one who's taking the orthodox Jewish position of living to the letter of the law.

reply to post by windword

Contemporary citations please, not something that was written in the 1st or 2nd century. Source? Links? Otherwise

First let me ask..

Was Alexander the Great a real historical person?

(First century would be "contemporary ", Jesus died in 32 AD)

reply to post by adjensen


He was angry because they went to gather on the Sabbath after he told them not to! It doesn't matter what they went to gather, all that matters is that god commanded them not to work on the Sabbath, that includes gathering manna, bread, grain, or whatever else! You're twisting the meaning to fit your own preconceptions, it's as obvious as day.

I'm far from being Jewish by the way.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Exodus 16
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Like I said, you are ignoring it.

How does that correlate to what the disciples were doing? They were neither baking or cooking.

reply to post by adjensen


Well, manna or grain, there was none on the ground. So, apparently Yahweh was taking his day of rest and expected the Israelites to do same. Yahweh did not provide manna on the Sabbath.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Read verses 27-30 to find your answer, I quoted the wrong section by accident.