Psychological Child Abuse?

Originally posted by chasingbrahman
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Perhaps your childhood is littered by evidence that your burgeoning intellect and identity was essentially feckless, but many people have memories of being very young, and still having opinions about what was a toy for a girl, or what was clothing for a boy. I remember playing with dolls, but also finding happiness in being like my best friend who was a boy and playing with trucks. But I understand if you didn't draw these distinctions. It actually makes sense that you didn't, given your feedback.

That was really a poor attempt at an insult. But then again I didn't expect much from such emotional brain trust. Its a scientific fact that kids early on are in the theta state. Knowing whether a doll is for boys or girls is learned either from parents or observation they aren't born that way... I never said they could not be inclined to male or female from birth and I explained why in my original post. I pointed out that this early on in childhood it is a learned response from the parents most likely and I am sure TV and other influences. They are not fully conscious like an adult till about 8 years old. I said the kid should be encouraged to accept his gender that is all. There is a reason he was born male it is not an accident and if it turns out he can't accept it and becomes gay as he matures well that is fine too but it is obvious at this young age these parents are influencing him and that will doom him to a hard life of ridicule and heartache. Chances are he will snap out of it when he hits puberty then he will still never live down his childhood because these parents believe all the psycho babble...

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by Miraj

 

my mother was a nurse
and my father three years
of med school,
then he joined the army
and fought in world war two.

So your father was in med school when Christine Jorgensen was a phenomena, not every day and when nurses had 0 education and wore white dresses?

I cannot ask my parents
"Did your parents neglect to raise you as if you had a brain?"
because they are both dead.

I'm sorry your parents are dead, but if misfortune doesn't catch us, time will. You apparently come from an era that although it may seem silly is far less enlightened than today. What you see as moral decay, I know from my friends is a release from being trapped.

I do know this though, the last exray that I had detected one.

Since your post was not on the subject of the op i will firmly steer you back that way okay?
they also raised me like I was a son and a boy because I had a (SINEP) (note letters scrambled so as not to offend anyone if the scrambled word is not politically correct.)

And neither was yours. I understand you're most likely completely comfortable with the gender you were born into, but until you stop pulling the trigger half cocked because you feel something is so wrong with you that it can never be fixed it is completely unfair for you to insult someone based on generalities. My blood has always boiled when the weak and misunderstood were teased and insulted.

I just want you to know, I was never raised as a girl like you would believe. Quite the opposite in fact. This is no effect of nurture, only nature.

If any of you are smart enough to unscramble the letters
because the scrambled letters are a body part that works better if it is ERECT.

Do you think you're funny? I pity you because your mind is so limited. I'll be happy when you generation fades into nonexistence so mine can co-exist peacefully. And that's the truth.

reply to post by Logos23

Originally posted by Logos23
So the parent's are worried about their boy/girl being stigmatised by having to use a separate bathroom to the other student's?

Yes. Separating her from the other kids makes it so she's seen as different, abnormal, odd, 'sick' or that something's wrong with her.

I'm sorry...but I tend to think they have had little regard for that uptill now..not least because of all the publicity.

You have no reason for thinking that. You ARE judging the situation. They've been dealing with this since Coy was 18 months old.

And they are pushing a "cause" under laws for protecting people who have transgender status...but I would like to know at what age this small child was given transgender status and who the hell gave it!?

The law in Colorado ALREADY protects transgendered people. This school is breaking the law. And a psychologist diagnosed her as transgendered.

There is no way that by the age of 6 this child as been given the space and time to grow and reflect and ponder over such an important decision about who he is.

It doesn't take growing, reflecting and pondering to know when one is in the wrong gender body. It's not a "decision" one comes to. It's a realization or a knowing. The decisions will be made later. For right now, she identifies as a girl and doesn't want to use the boy's restroom or be sent off to the 'sick kid's' restroom. She's not sick.

Another point. These parents have 4 other kids. You think they just picked this one out to put her through this, to make some kind of public and political statement for their 15 minutes of fame? Really?

.

reply to post by Miraj


I didn't say anything about offensive remarks. I was referring to childish and immature insults in an attempt to be cute and show off for everyone on ATS.

I've always thought the word "offended" was just another way of saying "I wear my feelings on my sleeve and you just hurt my feelings! Boo Hoo" Don't ever let them know they got to you.

The giant chip on your shoulder must be blocking your field of vision. Because you seem to be unable to read the words on the pages, much less comprehend them without jumping to preconceived conclusions, which makes discussing anything further with you, pointless.

It would be a boring world if everyone agreed.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Another point. These parents have 4 other kids. You think they just picked this one out to put her through this, to make some kind of public and political statement for their 15 minutes of fame? Really?

.

edit on 3/2/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

The other syblings are all girls. It's pretty obvious to anyone with common sense what's going on here. Of course the child wants to play with girl toys and dress up like girls- that's all he is around. Everyone wants to fit in. When your 4 other play mates all wear dresses and makeup, of course the little boy wants to fit in with them. From my perspective the mother could be confusing his need to fit in with gender identification- which is why this needs to be investigated. To simply dismiss the situation could be doing a severe disservice to the child as he grows up. I don't think it hurts anything to at least have CPS investigate. It's not like this is a "normal" situation.

And anyone who thinks this kid is emotionally mature enough to make the decision at 6, 4, or even 18 months is delusional. I agree that people are born a certain way, but I will argue that 6 years old is too young to proclaim something as serious as being transgendered.

reply to post by chrome413

Originally posted by chrome413
The other syblings are all girls.

No, they are not. She is a triplet. One of the three is a boy. She has a brother. And he's very masculine. His name is Max.

It's pretty obvious to anyone with common sense what's going on here.

Or, to anyone who's actually educated and informed on this story and this issue, it's pretty obvious that others aren't.

I will argue that 6 years old is too young to proclaim something as serious as being transgendered.

You're free to argue that. Scientific study has proven otherwise, but you're free to have your opinion.

reply to post by MessOnTheFED!

More than likely, in a few years, the boy will outgrow this phase.

Maybe. What makes you think you're qualified to decide something like that?

The parents need to get their heads out of their asss because they are damaging the child more than they could imagine by pushing their PC crap on everyone. Kids shouldn't be used to make political statements.

So, you think there is nothing more to this than parents using their child to make a statement?

Your concern doesn't seem to be for the child - this is about what you dislike about the child's parents

MOTF!

P.S. the parents should be ashamed of themselves for using their child to push their social agenda. They represent what is wrong with parents in general and why the youth of today doesn't care to listen nor give a crap about authority.

Maybe you should be a little ashamed of yourself for judging without having all the facts. Why don't you try to educate yourself?

How much do you think you know about the science of gender? How committed are you to learning?

Here's just one article - there is so much more out there
What’s So Bad About a Boy Who Wants to Wear a Dress?

There have always been people who defy gender norms. Late-19th-century medical literature described female “inverts” as appallingly straightforward, with a “dislike and sometimes incapacity for needlework” and “an inclination and taste for the sciences”; male inverts were “entirely averse to outdoor games.” By the mid-20th century, doctors were trying “corrective therapy” to extinguish atypical gender behaviors. The goal was preventing children from becoming gay or transgender, a term for those who feel they were born in the wrong body.

No one knows why most children ease into their assigned gender roles so effortlessly and others do not. Hormone levels might play a role. One hint is provided by a rare genetic condition known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, or C.A.H. The condition produces high levels of androgens, including testosterone, early in gestation, and can create somewhat male-like genitalia in genetic females. Girls with C.A.H. are typically raised as females and given hormones to feminize, yet studies show they are more physically active and aggressive than the average girl, and more likely to prefer trucks, blocks and male playmates. Though most turn out to be heterosexual, women with C.A.H. are more likely to be lesbian or bisexual than women who weren’t bathed in prenatal androgen.

Genetics might also be a factor in gender expression. Researchers have compared the gendered behavior of identical twins (who share 100 percent of their genes) with that of fraternal twins (who share roughly half). The largest study was a 2006 Dutch survey of twins, 14,000 at age 7 and 8,500 at age 10. The study concluded that genes account for 70 percent of gender-atypical behavior in both sexes. Exactly what is inherited, however, remains unclear: the specific behavior preferences, the impulse to associate with the other gender, the urge to reject limits imposed on them — or something else entirely.

There is a world of difference between what we've always accepted as normal - and what is actually normal. Ignorance is no excuse for treating people badly - we are beginning to learn more and more about ourselves every single day

It's a horrible thing to accuse parents of abuse when they are clearly trying to do what's best for their child

We're not property - not even as children - we're people with feelings and needs. Anyone who claims a 6 year old child has no concept of self has forgotten what it's like to be a child, and indeed - is beyond understanding what it means to be self aware. Children are not empty little sacks to be filled up any way we see fit

This child believes he is a she - there is a lot of scientific evidence out there that is saying she knows what she's talking about. A parent that recognizes this and still forces a kid to be what suits them? Now - that's abusive

I challenge to you to read the whole article - lengthy - but fascinating. And maybe even enlightening

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

So, you think there is nothing more to this than parents using their child to make a statement? Your concern doesn't seem to be for the child - this is about what you dislike about the child's parents

what part of that person's post saying "they are damaging the child" leads you to think their concern isn't for the child?

a 4 year old asks when he can get a sex change operation, and people still think the parents had no influence?

btw: everyone saying a 6 year old can make and understand the long term ramifications of decisions knows little about psychology and brain development. 18-20 years of age is when the frontal lobe develops enough to allow for that kind of information processing.

there is a reason personality disorders aren't diagnosed until someone is 18 or older because the brain has increased plasticity (rapidly changing neuron connections) up until that point, at 15-16 a rough idea can be had, but to claim that a 4-6 year old is capable of formulating such an idea AND understanding the ramifications is completely unscientific.

Here, we investigated the rationality of choices and the possible occurrence of judgment errors in children aged 3 to 9 years when exposed to a risky trade. Children were allocated with a piece of cookie that they could either keep or risk in exchange of the content of one cup among 6, visible in front of them......Children aged 3 to 4 years old were unable to discriminate the profitability of exchanging in the different combinations.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
hmm...young children unable to even understand the difference in profitability of exchange, backed up by science.

and another one:

We found that young children showed the strongest preference for risky compared to sure bet options of equal expected value

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

reply to post by chrome413

This is Coy Mathis:
www.salon.com...
abcnews.go.com...
www.seattlepi.com...-4259151
(this last one is an entire slideshow)

What does your gut tell you?

Do you think we can teach - or force - a small child to 'act' girl or 'act' boy?

It's more than just dressing up - we are what we are

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

Your post seems to indicate that you think this mostly about psychology/psychiatry - and mental health disorders

Do you think either psychology or psychiatry is an exact science? Do you think even psychologists or psychiatrist think so?
The NIMH is changing it's mind all the time. That's exactly how it should be - we change how we look at things and how we treat things when we have new information
This is an interesting view on all this - I though I can see both sides, I think this gentleman makes some good points:
Homosexuality: The Mental Illness That Went Away

The overall point being that the APA’s taxonomy is nothing more than self-serving nonsense. Real illnesses are not banished by voting or by fiat, but by valid science and hard work. There are no mental illnesses. Rather, there are people. We have problems; we have orientations; we have habits; we have perspectives. Sometimes we do well, other times we make a mess of things. We are complicated. Our feelings fluctuate with our circumstances, from the depths of despondency to the pinnacles of bliss. And perhaps, most of all, we are individuals. DSM’s facile and self-serving attempt to medicalize human problems is an institutionalized insult to human dignity.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is constantly being reevaluated, criticized - and changed
en.wikipedia.org...

Children are always growing, changing - sure. You still willing to say that a six year old child knows nothing about their own self - and that gender, transgender and sexuality issues are all in their heads?

We are a complicated mix - we humans - of mental and physical. Where does one start and the other stop?

If this is more about biology and being born a certain way - how much damage is done to any child when you ask it to behave in a way that doesn't fit with what they feel naturally? How much damage is done when you tell a child they don't know themselves - and they have no business deciding anything as important as this for themselves?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

What does your gut tell you? Do you think we can teach - or force - a small child to 'act' girl or 'act' boy?

yes. haven't you heard children say "i wanna be just like my daddy/mommy". it is the same psychological mechanism, coupled with the increased brain plasticity that children have. the power of suggestion is incredibly strong, and children are ultra susceptible. this has been demonstrated time and again.

suggestion from the parents, coupled with praise/positive attention as a reward, leads to an operant conditioning-esque scenario. do you really think a 4 year old developed the idea on his own to have a sex change operation, let alone even know the word?

reply to post by chrome413

I didn't say anything about offensive remarks. I was referring to childish and immature insults in an attempt to be cute and show off for everyone on ATS.

And you're saying this:

The parents are neglecting to raise him as a
son and boy which he clearly is according to his plumbing

Isn't immature and childish?
You said nothing about the dozens of these posts and moved onto the one person who called one of them out.

I've always thought the word "offended" was just another way of saying "I wear my feelings on my sleeve and you just hurt my feelings! Boo Hoo" Don't ever let them know they got to you.

What comments bother you? Everyone has someone they're insulted by. Which by the way is another worded for being offended. Boo hoo, I have feelings. I wouldn't make a holocaust joke to a Jewish person.

The giant chip on your shoulder must be blocking your field of vision. Because you seem to be unable to read the words on the pages, much less comprehend them without jumping to preconceived conclusions, which makes discussing anything further with you, pointless.

The rest of the world is wearing bifocals, and I have vision. None of my conclusions are preconcieved because the stupid comments were already made.

It would be a boring world if everyone agreed.

Sure it would. But this shouldn't be an issue for discussion since the posters are talking about forcing this child into a male bathroom, which IS child abuse.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

nice way to completely ignore all the evidence i gave demonstrating a child's inability to mentally understand risk vs. reward over a few minutes...with cookies.

that is the issue here. a 4 year old cannot know about sex changes unless they're told/taught. it's classic indoctrination.

take the westboro baptist church for example:

www.frugal-cafe.com...

did these children formulate these ideas on their own? how dare anyone criticize them for having opinions that the parents obviously didn't influence

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


Your evidence? This isn't about understanding risk -or cookies

:-)

What about reading up on my 'evidence' ?

Do you even think there is such a thing as being born with the body of one gender but the mind of another?

Or do yo think the only possibility is that she was coerced?

Watch the video - still think her parents indoctrinated her?:
www.katiecouric.com...

reply to post by Bob Sholtz



I can't say that a child isn't easily influenced by their parents. Because I was actually a christian for awhile.

Nor can I say mentally they are able to make life altering decisions.

But consider that she's not actually making a life altering decision. She's not taking any drugs or getting any surgery. Consider that if she really is a diagnosable transsexual, then her parents sparing her a very violent period of un-acceptance with herself, the outside world, and providing her the chance to live a normal life.

And if she changes her mind and wants to live as a boy? She can.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

the point most people here are making (who are against this, or find it disturbing) is that he is too young to understand the lasting consequences of having a sex change operation. the brain/mind hasn't formed into a constant state. this is why young children go through "phases". even if you argue that this "phase" has lasted long enough for it not to be a phase (it hasn't, because his brain still has a high amount of plasticity), the positive attention/praise from the parents is easily enough to account for the longevity.

he is too young to have knowledge of what a sex change operation is, so how did he know to ask when he could have one as the parents stated? he was 4 at the time.

the "risk vs. reward" studies outline how young children don't understand CONSEQUENCES. they don't understand how to get more cookies (i.e. happiness/pleasure) than random chance would provide them with. their desires rapidly fluctuate with their neurons rewiring in response to positive and negative stimuli. a child might love "thomas the tank engine" and get bed sheets and wall paper in their room, then a few years later want to change it all. this is the problem. a sex change leaves permanent alterations that cannot be undone.

as for someone having a male body, and a female mind or vice versa? what are you defining "mind" as? did you know a person's hand preference can be changed in a few seconds completely by stimulating different neurons? males and females have physically different brains. i would employ occam's razor here. is it more likely with what we know that a person with a male body is somehow actually female? if yes, then what about them is female? testosterone makes the brain male before the child is even born.

if "gender is who you believe yourself to be" then why does he have a male brain and male organs? hmmmm. opinions and beliefs do not dictate reality. neither do wishes!

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

the point most people here are making (who are against this, or find it disturbing) is that he is too young to understand the lasting consequences of having a sex change operation.

Which is why that's not even an option now - no one said it was

Right now they're taking this one step at a time - have you read any of the articles or watched the video? You're basing (it seems) everything on what's been said in this thread

And - do you suppose maybe she is aware of her situation - and this is what's been troubling her? Maybe they did mention the possibility - so what if they did? At least then they'd be up front honest about what's possible and what's not - good for them

But you believe she's been indoctrinated :-)

There's more to say in reply to your post - but I have to run

more laterish Bob Sholtz

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

the point most people here are making (who are against this, or find it disturbing) is that he is too young to understand the lasting consequences of having a sex change operation. the brain/mind hasn't formed into a constant state. this is why young children go through "phases". even if you argue that this "phase" has lasted long enough for it not to be a phase (it hasn't, because his brain still has a high amount of plasticity), the positive attention/praise from the parents is easily enough to account for the longevity.

We aren't even discussing a sex change operation. We're discussing a girl using the bathroom, and people being upset because she was born a boy. And they're worried that when she goes in, a giant penis monster is going to kill all the other girls. Or something.

Once again for like the third time I've said it in this thread, a sex change operation wouldn't be performed until the patient is 18.

he is too young to have knowledge of what a sex change operation is, so how did he know to ask when he could have one as the parents stated? he was 4 at the time.

Because she understood what a doctor was and that she has the wrong parts. I know a lot of transsexuals that attempted to remove their parts.

the "risk vs. reward" studies outline how young children don't understand CONSEQUENCES. they don't understand how to get more cookies (i.e. happiness/pleasure) than random chance would provide them with. their desires rapidly fluctuate with their neurons rewiring in response to positive and negative stimuli. a child might love "thomas the tank engine" and get bed sheets and wall paper in their room, then a few years later want to change it all. this is the problem. a sex change leaves permanent alterations that cannot be undone.

Just look up the actual process and requirements.

as for someone having a male body, and a female mind or vice versa? what are you defining "mind" as? did you know a person's hand preference can be changed in a few seconds completely by stimulating different neurons? males and females have physically different brains. i would employ occam's razor here. is it more likely with what we know that a person with a male body is somehow actually female? if yes, then what about them is female? testosterone makes the brain male before the child is even born.

There are actual verifiable structures in the brain which different between male and female. While there's no consistent data, there have been studies that show transsexuals had these structures that were more consistent with their true gender.

And it's questionable how the difference occurs because no one yet knows how it happens, but it's pretty main stream within medical practices that it happens. We don't know a lot about the diseases Doctors treat, but they do know how to treat them.

Which is why that's not even an option now - no one said it was
orly? did you watch the interview? the mother brought it up several times.

“She started saying things like, ‘When are we going to go to the doctor to get me fixed?’” -Kathryn Mathis

www.katiecouric.com...

And - do you suppose maybe she is aware of her situation - and this is what's been troubling her? Maybe they did mention the possibility - so what if they did? At least then they'd be up front honest about what's possible and what's not - good for them

there's no maybe about it. trouble is, a child at his age (as i've shown) cannot comprehend their situation, and the consequences of their choices.

But you believe she's been indoctrinated :-)

it seems logical. a child knowing what a sex change is at 4. i'm against indoctrination of all forms, even teaching young children from religious texts, as they're too young to understand and decide for themselves.

i too will be going soon, but i look forward to our continued discussion