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Welcom to Left Behind. What I know about the Apocalypse.

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posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 11:27 AM
I have been studying the Apocalypse of the Bible for a number of years now and have come to the following conclusion. The Christian Apocalypse has been running for a number of years now. So I thought I would make this thread and put what I know down in print. Maybe even check back in 5 to 10 years just to see what I get right here.

So here it goes.

Based on the Matthew 24 prophesy. I see this. The Apocalypse started between the end of WW2 in Aug of 1945 to the birth of the nation of Israel in May of 1948. That is based on a reading of verse 6 and 32. Meaning the Apocalypse couldn't start during the time of a major war and the first noticeable end time event to occur. That event being the rebirth of Israel. An end time event predicted in a number of places in the bible. So by May of 2013 the Apocalypse will be 65 years old.

Now how long can it go? Well, that is explained in verse 34 with this statement.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So what length of time are we talking about? Based on that I would say it's the lifetime of the generation being born at the time the first end time event happened. Somewhere in the 1945 to 48 range. So I would say 70 to 80 years long. What Psalms 90:4 says.

And that gives us a end date to the Apocalypse. May 15 2028 at the absolute latest date for the last event of the Apocalypse to happen. The start of the thousand year reign of the saints of Revelation 20.

So now the question is "Where are we at in this process?"

So after looking at all the data I'm putting us here. Between the 5th and 6th seals of Revelation 6. In the short season. So how did I get there? It's based on a study of the seals of Revelation using the following study aid. The let the bible solve the bible principle. Or put another way what I figured out was that these seals are references to old testament prophesies. The trick was to figure out which ones. So heres the breakdown.

First seal.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The bowman goes to war. I thought about this for awhile. Days really. But then I got it. What if the point of the prophesy isn't to figure out what's there but what is missing? The arrows. It's not natural to say "bow" by itself. It's usually bow and arrows. A bow by itself is useless. So I thought about and remembered this story from 2nd Kings 13 14 through 19. The point of the story being 4 arrows. 3 being victiories in this war with Syria that this king was supposed to fight. So after double checking Daniel 11 I figured it out. The bowmen is the king of the south of Daniel 11.

How does that work? After looking through Daniel 11 I saw the king of the south has 4 victories in his war in this prophesy. One being basically a draw. But his first victory is in verses 2 through 4. Verse 2 essentially being a 500 BC description of the 9-11 attacks. And eventually how his target eventually collapses. And becomes the 4 republics of Daniel 11-4 and 8-22. This king is either Islam or if it's an actual person it's Prince Abdullah now King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

So what I'm seeing is that it appears on 9-11-2001 we entered into the preliminary events of the Apocalypse of Daniel. And these events need to play out before the 7 year agreement of Daniel 9 can be signed. Somewhere around 2018 to 2021.

Now I know there are those people whe would say that these events from Daniel happened in the BC era. The problem is. YOUR WRONG! Period. These are current and future events. And I'll prove it later when I cover the Curse of Malachi. But I'll get to that later.

Continuing on. The 2nd seal.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

After solving the first seal the 2nd is easy. It's the great king of Daniel 11-3 And Daniel 8. And I would say that that was George W. Bush. Who counterattacked Al Qaeda and conquered Afghanistan and Iraq. By the way fulfilling the part of Daniel 8 that has the great king conquering 2 nations or kings in the middle east.

The 3rd seal takes us to a completely different place.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

After thinking about it and looking about I found him in Zechariah 6

It would appear he is the man that builds the 3rd Jewish temple. And he is one of the branches of Zechariah 4.

And it would seem that he is also a witness of Revelation 11

Then the 4th seal.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

So after looking at this I would say that this has to be the little horn of Daniel 8. The theme of the other seals so far being kings or rulers in the end times it would seem fitting the beast of Revelation and the vile person of Daniel 11 being the same thing. An evil person that starts a war with God himself.

The 5th seal seems to be simply a pause in the action. As the details of the first 4 seals get played out. Which takes time. The black horseman hasn't appeared yet. Though it would seem he has a few years yet.

edit on 28-2-2013 by ntech because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 11:59 AM
reply to post by ntech

And that gives us a end date to the Apocalypse. May 15 2028 at the absolute latest date for the last event of the Apocalypse to happen

The only problem with that is "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - Matthew 24:36

ETA: I mean you even mentioned Matthew 24. How did you miss verse 36?!

End times predictions are a dime a dozen, and as a devout believer in the Scriptures, just going by the above stated verse alone, no one should be trying to predict the end. It's tantamount to blasphemy.

The end will get here when it gets here, when the Father decides. You can't move Him along.
edit on 28-2-2013 by LazarusTsiyr because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:08 PM
reply to post by LazarusTsiyr

The world would be a better place If the men who wrote the bible left the end of times stuff out because so many of you want to prove your brand of religion right (including world leaders) and would love to bring about the apocalypse just to say "I was right you was wrong".
Personally I think life will go on even after a civilization ending event because we are human beings we adapt, we are the gods in our universe we control our own destiny and only If we let the Religious people bring it about will we fail.
The sooner we understand that all this old world nonsense is holding us back the better.
Believe what you want just do not preach about it and let people live their lives without threats of hell etc the world and the human race will be better for it.

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:12 PM
reply to post by ntech

Hi NTech

I think it is fairly clear that the Apocalypse of Yohanon (whoever he was) aka the Book of Revelation was not only written c. 69 CE during the hiatus of the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome (c. 66-72 CE) when Nero was tottering, then disappeared from the scene and no less than 4 emperors of Rome took their place on the Throne (Nero, Otho, Galba, Vitellius) during the same year - but also that it was written by Jewish Messianic groups hoping to be freed from the Roman Yoke (since 63 BCE with the invasion of the Roman General Pompey into Jerusalem) and clearly refers to their own time (c. 60-75 CE) - 'about which things will VERY SOON take place regarding the Yahad of the Elect Ones..' and makes repeated use of older prophecies from the Tanakh (i.e. Jewish OT) and other intertestamental writings (e.g. Jubilees, Testaments of the 12, 1 Henoch, the Wisdom of ben Sirach aka Ecclesiasticus and other 'Dead Sea Scrolls' books).

Here is a LINK for you to check out which shows that the 'Age of the Prophets' by 68 CE was thought to be 'over' and that all that was left for Judaeans looking for prophetic hope could do would be was to 'midrash' (i.e. re-interpret) the Hebrew scriptures for modern insights into their current situation - it has NO THING whatsoever to do with modern times, but was written specifically for that single period when the Judaeans actually thought they had a chance to destroy the Roman Empire and institute the Kingdom of David upon earth, with 'the goyim (i.e. non-jews, i.e. Romans) being dragged into the Holy City of New Jersusalem as captives with all of their wealth pouring into it' after the final victory


Try to read as many of the comments I included as possible so you can get a fresh look a the evidence - which when studied closley (the Greek is so bad in this book that it is clearly an Aramaic/Hebrew poetic work almost impossible to translate literally and still make coherent sense !) shows that it was written in 6-line stanzas in a lament metre reminiscent of the firge poetry found in Jeremiah's Book of Lamentations...

Hope this helps !

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:27 PM
reply to post by LazarusTsiyr

The problem there is what precisely was Jesus Christ referring to in that statement. And it's this. Verse 14.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The problem is that the birth of Israel in 1948 has to be a fig leaf as that is a prophesied event in a number of prophesies. So it would have to be the 2nd fig leaf. The first one being verse 14. Therefor verse 14 occurred between 1945 to 1948.

There's nothing in Matthew 24 that says you cannot figure out that the event has happened. Just not the specific day it happened.

But you are supposed to be able to tell when you are in the season.

edit on 28-2-2013 by ntech because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:28 PM
reply to post by LazarusTsiyr

Israel itself is a sign of the End Times so as much as I agree that no-one should be predicting the date, we can use Israel as a landmark that the time is possibly here or near.

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:43 PM
2 things imo
1) Your understanding of a Biblical generation is incorrect. Its most places its 35 years like:

Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

in others its 40, in still others (say diving the years in the generations of David) its a number between 35 & 40. the Psalm you refer to is a lifespan of certain people and not a generation. ALSO a generation can denote a KINGLY REIGN, and Christians believe Christ still reigns. Since his reign is eternal, it could simply mean that he will rule until the end of this age.

2) Dont use the UN recognition of a European Colony in the mideast as a marker. Proselytes of the samaitan religion dispossessing palestinians is hardly a reference point in prophecy

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 12:44 PM
reply to post by boymonkey74

I respect your opinion and agree to a certain point that the "churches" have twisted the essence and meaning of the Bible to fit their needs and desires, a perfect example is the pope and the catholic church. All that being said and a true believer myself I ask this, is better to wholly believe in the message of the New Testament and Jesus's teachings, I fail to find 1 fault in his plan for us and how we should live, or believe that it is all a fairy tale. It is clear the nonbelievers and those who sin without recompense the price is death, of both the body and the soul.

Personally I would rather not take a chance on the alternative, and btw being a christain has provided me a wondeful life, God's rules work.


posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 01:13 PM
reply to post by Sigismundus

Here's my answer to that. But here's the problem. The root cause of the Apocalypse. And unfinished business.

In the 69th week of Daniel 9 Jesus Christ and John the Baptist showed up to do their part. According to Malachi 3-1 this was to happen.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

And Malachi 4 says this.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So what's the problem? This from Matthew 17.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Put simply John the Baptist wasn't supposed to die when he did. So what happened was the earth was slammed with a curse. So I went and figured out the curse.

To start with you need to read and get familiar with Leviticus 26. The old covenant and how blessings and curses are handed out in Judaism. Then you need to read up on the book of Hosea and the day of Jezreel prophesy.

But here's the highlights.

Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 3
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 5
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
10 The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

So according to the prophesy the Jews and Israelites were going to offend there God to the point where he was going to slap them with a top level Leviticus curse. Verse 5-14 there. But then the prophesy gives us the length of the punishment.


posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 01:31 PM

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. 3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

But that makes no sense until you are aware of this.

2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And Psalm 90
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Essentially this is a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. And it's still running. And it occurred during the 69th week of Daniel 9 meaning the 70th week is a future event. Along with much of Daniel because of these verses.

Daniel 8
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 10
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 11
6 And in the end of years.
40 And at the time of the end.

Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So what is this time of the end? After looking at Daniel combined with Hosea it can only be one thing. The 70th week of Daniel which will occur at the end of the 2000 year curse of Malachi. Followed by a thousand year day of Jezreel. The reign of the saints in Revelation 22.

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 02:03 PM
reply to post by GeneralMishka

I think you need to look at the exact wording of the verse.

Matthew 24
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

He isn't using the term "generation" as a unit of time. Rather he is using the word to designate a group of people. Those being born at the time of the first end time event. And their average lifetime.

Also I have a proof for this. The curse of Malachi I went over in a earlier post works as a proof. The death of John the Baptist occurred roughly in the mid 20s AD. Add 2000 years and you get the mid 2020s.

So yes I think that was his intent behind verse 34.

Now for the Palestinians. You may not like what's being done to them but here's the problem.

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The problem is that the Israel of today is made up of mostly Akanazi Jews. They are not blood Jews (Semitic) at all. The Semitic Jews are the Palestinians. What you are seeing over there is the curse being played out. And why they are being beaten up so bad on both sides.

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 03:03 PM
Silly that so many people put their life into a book written by mortal kings for the use of their sheep.
But by all means, continue to believe the lie.
Me, I live a good guilt free life!

posted on Feb, 28 2013 @ 03:48 PM
reply to post by ntech

Hi NTech

The issue is that in a number of places in the Apocalypse, it is stated that

‘these things that are happening now and also those things that are very shortly to come to pass’

in other words ‘these things’ were meant to be understood as coming to pass/fruition during the writer’s own lifetime

This sentiment of ‘immediacy’ is also echoed in several places in the canonical Greek gospels e.g.

‘Amen Amen I say unto you THIS CURRENT GENERATION shall not pass away before these things all take place…’

which caused a great deal of consternation among 2nd generation Messianic Jews and Christians who kept waiting and waiting and waiting…and yet all they saw was the destruction of Eretz Yisro’el by the invading Roman armies and the family of the Davids more or less wiped off the face of the earth by 72 CE.

Here are some examples from the mangled Greek texts of the Apocalypse of Yohanon (whoever he was) e.g. the opening incipit which might have involved the intervention of an editor who wrote the intro (i.e. not the actual author(s)

A Copy of the Scroll of the Book of The Apocalypse of Yohanon
Setting forth in Symbols all which was reveal'd unto him
Even by a Holy Watcher of the Most High :
And lo, he set everything down in letters upon a Scroll
Even in words set forth [upon both front and back]
Concerning all that pertains to the Elect Ones in the Last Days.

And he wrote during the Patience of the Saints
Even during the Tribulation of the Holy Ones
About things have already begun come to pass now
And concerning things also to things soon to take place-
To bear Testimony to all the Yahadim in Asia scattered among the goyim
Regarding all which was shown to him regarding their Fate...

&tc. &tc.

So any attempt to apply ‘these things’ to modern day times (that is to apply them to any time period apart from the failed Jewish War against Rome in c. 66 - 72 CE) seems to me to be a little farfetched to say the least.

posted on Mar, 1 2013 @ 02:17 PM
reply to post by Sigismundus

Well you can have that opinion but prophesy isn't backing that up. Book of Hosea states there was to be a 2000 year curse. And as I pointed out that curse would have started in or just after the 69th week. Therefore the 70th week has never happened. You really don't think the last 2000 years is what God intended for us do you?

Also consider 2nd Peter 3-8. For Jesus Christ it's been less than two days since the Cross.

And consider this.

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Since when has the times of the Gentiles ended?

Mark 13
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

And one other thing. There was a job that needed to be done.

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I'm afraid this Apocalypse was meant to happen in a far distant future from the first century AD.

edit on 1-3-2013 by ntech because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2013 @ 04:00 PM
reply to post by ntech

Hi nTech

You wrote:


Luke 21:24

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ...
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Since when has the times of the Gentiles ended?


Again this Lukan quotation (from the 3rd canonical Greek gospel 'according to Luke' whoever he was) clearly reflects the period 66-72 CE during the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome when Messianic hopefuls were still hoping for deliverance from the Roman Occupation ('times of the Goyim' aka 'the times of the Amorites' which is a phrase meaning 'the period during the Occupation of the goyim in Eretz Yisro'el)

The phrase comes from the book of Bereshth ('genesis') chapter 15:16 'it shall come in the 4th generation since the Times (but the later MT-Masoretic Text reads: 'Sinfulness of the Amorites') of the Amorites is not yet fulfilled in the Land' = a perennial problem in Palestine

The "times of the Gentiles" relate to the Gentile possession or dominance over the city of Jerusalem - first by the Assyrians (who abandoned their siege in 701 BCE), then by the Babylonians (BCE 587-531); then by the Persians (531 to 331 BCE) then by the Greeks (331-163 BCE); then the Macabbean Revolt gave them 2 Jubilees (=100 years) or more or less self-rule by the Hashmonean High Priest-Kings ('sons of Matathiah ben Hasmon); then by the Romans (63 BCE, with the invasion of Pompey)...

See Saul of Tarsus’ comments c. 54 CE
Rom 11:25

"Brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant of this Musterion…for the sons of Yisroel have experienced great hardship until the full number of goyim have been fulfilled in Zion for soon Qol Yisro’el will be delivered out of their hands, as it is written:

“A Deliverer will emerge from Tzion; he will turn all Apostasy away from the house of Yakkov. And this is my Berit with them in the day when I shall remove their Iniquity…”

The ‘number of Goyim completed in Zion’ seems to refer to the same idea as ‘the Times of the Gentiles’ or ‘Times of the Amorites’ being fulfilled – i.e. the influx of invading gentile nations over the centuries that Saul of Tarsus (and the earliest Messianic Christians) believed had a limit before ‘divine’ intervention when the Jews would be freed from gentile occupation, and able to introduce the coming Kingdom of David in Zion.

The ‘Apostasy’ that Saul refers to here refers to the Jews abroad who had fallen away from worshipping YHWH and began worshipping pagan gods as well as the Roman Emperor ‘as a god’ as well as participating in the Mystery Religions of the Empire – a theme also found in the ‘Book of Revelation’ written some 15 years later.

So there were several centuries of Messianic Hope in Jerusalem for the Judaeans to be free of Goyim/Gentile (symbolically expressed as Amorite) occupation in Eretz Yisro'el - and the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome was a violent reaction to centuries of gentile infiltration ('woe to those who occupy the land of Yisro'el' as it states in the 'Apocalypse of Yohanon' whoever he was) - sometimes mis-translated as 'woe to those who dwell upon the earth (Heb. ha-aretz) which occurs in such bad translations in English as the KJV King James Version of 1611 who had no access to the early Papyri of the Book of Revelation as we do to-day.

See Revelation 11:2

And I looked, and behold I saw: another Watcher standing by me
And lo, he began to hand me a long Rod
Even a Golden Measuring Reed of the Temple :
And he spake to me saying, Take the Reed & measure the Hekal of EL :
Then proceed to the Altar of EL and measure it also,
And also count the number of the worshippers therein.

And lo, he again spake saying, Do not to measure the Court of the Gentiles
For that Portion of the Temple has already been ceded to the Kittim
And behold, they now occupy its precints:
For they have trampled it under foot in order to defile it
And, lo, they shall continue to occupy the Holy City
Even for a Period of Two and Forty Months.

The 42 months (a time, two times and half a time = i.e. 3.5 years) of course refers back to the Hebrew & Aramaic sections of the Book of Daniel as you may already recall.

It is also echoed in Rev. chapter 11 ('and after a period of 3 and one half days they were allowed to stand on their feet again and the breath of life was breathed back into them...' referring to the martyrdom of the 2 Messiahs) - refers to the half way point in the 7-year War against Rome (that was the period that the Dead Sea Scrolls speak of in relation to the War of the Sons of Light against All the Sons of Darkness in the Last Days, i.e. the War Scroll, 1QM rediscovered in Nov of 1946 at Qumran).

During the lull in the fighting (c. 69 CE) between Roman Army invasions, the Book of Revelation was certainly written out (i.e. adapted from OT prophecies for Midrashic expansion) when they really did believe that 'salvation of Jerusalem was near at hand'

But then again, look how that turned Deliverer every showed and Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Romans by 72 CE after the fall of Masada.

So the survivors of the War against Rome in the Diaspora, without any hope of returning to Zion, turned their idea of their 'political' i.e. zionist Messiah (failed) into the idea of a 'personal (i.e. Universal) saviour' as 'an acceptable message' to spread among the goyim ...

edit on 1-3-2013 by Sigismundus because: stuttering commmputtterrrr

posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 03:31 AM
reply to post by Sigismundus

I know you're trying to disprove my conclusions here but let me show you something. There are reasons why there was no rescue in 70 AD for Jerusalem. The curse of Malachi I mentioned earlier in this thread is one. And here is another.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What is verse 28 talking about? What is the carcass? After thinking about it for awhile I got it. Quite simply this is a fragment referring to another biblical prophesy. I figured out because of the curse what he is doing is using little sealed references here. If you don't get the reference then the quote simply makes no sense. Similar to what he is doing with the seals of Revelation. And I believe the prophesy he referring to is the battle between the goat and the ram of Daniel 8.


Because at the end of the battle the ram is dead. Leaving a carcass. So what this verse is telling us is just before his return you are going to see "Persia" conquered in the middle east. That was the detail that was lacking in 70AD.

And that's why Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are unfinished prophesy.

edit on 4-3-2013 by ntech because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 4 2013 @ 03:45 PM
reply to post by ntech

Hi nTech

Hi Ntech –

There is no getting around blatantly early and highly troublesome statements such as Matt 24 when dealing with these sayings (logia) in terms of they're coming to fruition during the 1st generation disciples lifetimes...

“Amen Amen I say to you: THIS Generation will in no way pass away UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS COME TO PASS.”

One looks for the ‘criterion of Embrarassment’ to suggest that these kinds of ‘immediate’ sayings (Rev. ‘which shall very shortly come to pass’) would hardly be ones made up by the early Church = they were so deeply embedded into the earliest strands of the Tradition, that they simply could not be removed, like the Crucifixion itself.

But as you already suspected, clearly we are dealing with several sets of out-of -rder fragments of discrete sayings (‘logia’) of ‘ho Iesous’ in both Matt 24 and in Luke 17 (whoever they were)

These groupings were not written down and translated into Greek (c. 75 CE) for at least one and possibly two generations after these sayings were originally spoken in Galilean Aramaic (c. 32 CE)

– i.e. not written in Greek until AFTER the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (c. 66-72 CE) –

So what you are reading on the page was actually copied out/read in the churches ‘after the event’ i.e. after Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Roman Army.

It seems that the followers of the Galilean Rebbe began to collect any sayings attributed to the Teacher pertaining to the Fall of Jerusalem orally then later translated into Greek

(‘But didn’t The Teacher warn us this would happen?)

And these End of Days sayings exist in different logia groupings in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd canonical Greek gospels sometimes linked together by Catch Words e.g. ‘save’ (‘let no man enter his house to SAVE his belongings’ compared with the next verse:

‘He who tries to SAVE his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life shall SAVE it) – this is an oral method of remembering sayings. (see the Markan-linked Logia Catch Word Collection ref: SALT in Mark 9:50-51)

See Luke 17:31 (= Matt 24 = a ‘Quelle / Q-Series of Sayings’ shared by Luke/Matthew but absent in Mark

a. And on that Day let no Bar Enasha (‘son of man’) standing upon the roof of his house with belongings inside, go down to save them. Likewise, let no man stripped for work in the fields go back to retrieve [his cloak] –

b. Recall what happened to the Wife of Lot .

c. For whoever tries to save their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will save it [in the Kingdom].

d. Amen Amen I say uno you, there shall come a night when two men shall recline on the same sofa, one shall be taken and the other left alive ; likewise there shall come a day when two women are grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

e. And the disciples asked, where shall these things take place, Teacher? And he said to them,
“[=always look for signs in the heavens when trying to understand things upon the earth]

Where there is a Corpse on the ground, won’t you soon spot Vultures circling above it ?”

(in other words, ‘the answer should be obvious, one would think, i.e. Jerusalem’)

I try to avoid using the word ‘ eagle’ in these sayings, but rather prefer the English word ‘Vulture’
Rabbi Nosson Slifkin speaking to an English speaking audience asked: “Why is it better to think of Vultures, not eagles, when they say the word nesher? Let me tell you:

R. Saadia Gaon and R. Ibn Ezra "translate nesher with the Arabic term nesr, which refers to the griffon vulture"

• The nesher eats carrion (dead animal) in Iyov 39:27-30 and Mishlei 30:17, which fits the Vulture, not the Eagle
• The Vulture fits the Talmudic description of the nesher (Chullin 61a) and Tosfot on 63a (s.v. netz) says that those who say the nesher is an eagle are mistaken (such as the Chizzkuni on Vayikra 11:13)

The Heb. AYIT is itself derived from the root עיט or עוט meaning "to rush down, to dart" - the description of a ‘generic bird of prey’ = we see this description in Beresht (Genesis) 15:11, where it says that the ayit descended on the carcasses. - וַיֵּרֶד הָעַיִט, עַל-הַפְּגָרִים.

Interestingly, the Carcass and the Vultures is echoed in the earlier passage in Gen 15 ref: the Times of the Amorites being fulfilled in Jerusalem - i.e. Occupation by foreign armies and gods.

Gen 15:7 ff: YHWH led Abram outside and said, “Behold the sky “So shall your offspring be as the constellations of heaven one day... I am YHWH, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of - but Abram said, “King YHWH, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”

And YHWH said to him,

“Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and cut them in half...and Abram did so - then (ayit) birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away...

edit on 4-3-2013 by Sigismundus because: stutterinnnnnnng computtterrrrrrr keyyyyboard


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