ATS UFO FORUM - Where's the serious UFO Phenomena researcher / enthusiast ?

Originally posted by Hopechest
Well I've found it hard to separate sensationalism from serious research when looking at the subject of UFO's.

Witness interviews in every other field are considered the least reliable form of research since two people can view the same thing and see different things.

However, this is the basis for serious UFO research which tells me that there is a limit to the credibility of it as a whole.

Basically the best empirical evidence you have is that which you are claiming is sensationalist. Pictures and video are by far the best evidence.

edit on 26-2-2013 by Hopechest because: (no reason given)

how do you investigate something if you dont do field work like investigating witnesses and physical traces ? Using picture and video as empirical evidence without witnesses statements and field works ? is this what UFO reseach come to ? people investigating blurry digital images / videos without leaving the comfort of their armchair and shunned field works like witness investigation / physical trace location investigation ?

Every kind of UFO investigation was documented with information from witnesses, even if modern researcher uses google to look it up, the source can be traced back to 1st witness. Analysing it from personal witness testimony are massively different than analysing someone's report on the internet.

no wonder the current of US UFOLOGY in such dire state.. everyone regurgiating the same trash over and over again without doing any original investigation.. this in addition with close minded skeptics hidden behind the name of science and in addition of mindless people who scorn real UFO research without knowledge or wanting to learn anything..

ah well..

reply to post by milomilo

nail what ? i dont understand.. what she good at ? sorry i think i miss the joke here.

It's of little importance, OP. Just consider it a lame attempt at humor. What is more important is my response in regards to your question. Check out some of Kandinsky's threads. Good stuff there.

Serious research requires objectivity. I preach this a lot, and I'm talking to myself as much as anyone else. Reading research requires that same objectivity, or you aren't going to get near as much out of it, as the researcher put into it.

Originally posted by milomilo

Originally posted by Mianeye
Enjoy

The ATS UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory,

thanks for the link , Mian

Mianeye beat me to it, milomilo. I really think that's as close as you'll get in response to wanting to separate the wheat threads from the chaff threads, so to speak, or at least it's the closest I've seen.

reply to post by milomilo


The joke here is that Druscilla is a Dude.

reply to post by milomilo


"- Serious UFO phenomena researchers do not believe in Extra terrestrial hypothesis, they believe in other form of existence (extra dimensional / spirits / etc)"



Since when? This sounds like a cop out. Let's cut thru the star trek time travel dimensional crap.

We are being visited by a life form that is not native to Earth. It happens. Why would you not take the whistleblowers seriously when they say that the mil gov is working with ET? Is that not the best reason for non disclosure? What makes you think they are lying about this? They have known about and been in contact with them since the 40’s. What makes you think they have not? These stories all come from eyewitness accounts, just like what you are asking for. Like a skeptic, are you only believing what you want to, and discarding the things you do not want to be true?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by milomilo

Originally posted by Mianeye
Enjoy

The ATS UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory,

thanks for the link , Mian

Mianeye beat me to it, milomilo. I really think that's as close as you'll get in response to wanting to separate the wheat threads from the chaff threads, so to speak, or at least it's the closest I've seen.

thanks friend, that thread ahould be stickied up top on ufo forum imho

reply to post by milomilo



He likes her.... worry not.
over developed egos.

lol

Originally posted by spiritualarchitect
reply to post by milomilo

 

"- Serious UFO phenomena researchers do not believe in Extra terrestrial hypothesis, they believe in other form of existence (extra dimensional / spirits / etc)"



Since when? This sounds like a cop out. Let's cut thru the star trek time travel dimensional crap.

We are being visited by a life form that is not native to Earth. It happens. Why would you not take the whistleblowers seriously when they say that the mil gov is working with ET? Is that not the best reason for non disclosure? What makes you think they are lying about this? They have known about and been in contact with them since the 40’s. What makes you think they have not? These stories all come from eyewitness accounts, just like what you are asking for. Like a skeptic, are you only believing what you want to, and discarding the things you do not want to be true?

EDH is not time travel shenanigan or star trek thingy or alien visitation fiction....

EDH imho just alternative in saying the phenomena might come not from other planets or non earth native, its trying to categorize all possibilities that the phenomena might me old/older than humans and they might be native to earth..and they might be from different dimension.. this theory is no worse that trying to explain phenomena as aliens using nuts n bolts UFO that frequently crashes and captured..

the proponent of nuts n bolts UFO are already deciding that UFO are physical and aliens are from outer space. with that they lost their objectivity and thus the era of belief system occured in UFOLOGY especially US ufology. this belief system begat more and more incrediluous ideas and fake testimonies like alien corpse, alien caught by military and continue to more and more faerie tale like captured saucers, aliens working in military bases, alien vs military war, secret bases and so on and so on..

the imagination and fantasy of the proponents of such stories are incredible and whats more incredible is the believer of such stories, those people have close minded approach to such belief and they dont even question the witnesses. note that some of the said witnesses are people looking for attention and money from the story, those people repeat the BS stories from roswell (which is small incident blown up to proportion and thus start the legend)

regards

Originally posted by CaptainBeno
Explain: Serious UFO Threads?

There are indeed what I consider "serious" UFO threads, most of them are several years old but once in a while a good one pops up also today.

Example for NOT "serious" UFO threads are *many* of the recent ones, not so much "blurry footage", but those ridiculous threads like the chem-trail thread, reptilian threads and also many "abductee" threads.

There is a BIG difference between such threads and looking at cases objectively - and/or having smart people engage in good and constructive discussion.

80% of the recent threads make me think I am in a looney bin and I need to listen to the stories of the mentally challenged. I am sorry, I also think it's the mod's mistake to allow so many idiotic threads. And some ARE simply idiotic.

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by CaptainBeno
Explain: Serious UFO Threads?

There are indeed what I consider "serious" UFO threads, most of them are several years old but once in a while a good one pops up also today.

Example for NOT "serious" UFO threads are *many* of the recent ones, not so much "blurry footage", but those ridiculous threads like the chem-trail thread, reptilian threads and also many "abductee" threads.

There is a BIG difference between such threads and looking at cases objectively - and/or having smart people engage in good and constructive discussion.

80% of the recent threads make me think I am in a looney bin and I need to listen to the stories of the mentally challenged. I am sorry, I also think it's the mod's mistake to allow so many idiotic threads. And some ARE simply idiotic.

edit on 28-2-2013 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

dear friend

thats why i propose a new sub thread at UFO forum in ATS, where those who put out photo and videos can show them all in 1 thread and those who discuss UFO in mature / polite discussions are in other thread. im truly flabergasted on people who post 1 liner insult or 1 liner scorn without adding anything in the discussion here at ATS UFO Forum.. it make me sometimes wonder why if they hate UFO forum so much they keep posting insult here ? personally i wont bother adding comment in thread that i dont have interest in =D

on the 80% you mentioned, i agree wholeheartedly , in fact it think its higher than 80% the amount of junk post in here compared to serious post about UFO phenomena..

its saddening to see new comers in UFO field bombarded with roswell faerie tales instead of researching the real UFO phenomena encounter documents available freely like NICAP's and FSR's..

Glad to see people here still care about seriously discussing UFO Phenomena, i wish there are more of us here

regards

Originally posted by spiritualarchitect
reply to post by milomilo

 

The joke here is that Druscilla is a Dude.

hmm must be an old joke to frequent ATS UFO forumers.. since im not that frequent i dont get the joke at all..

It's probably by design that the crazier threads are cluttering up the place. There's maybe several groups around that would rather this was the case, and that put effort into making sure it stays like this. It won't last though if there's truth we need to learn. It's possible that the energy cartels are especially concerned about the public understanding different technology too.

Of course, saying things like this must mean I'm a nutcase to some, (or they'll pretend like they think that.) others will understand what I'm saying all too well though. Here's to Humanity waking up from this illusion.

There's plenty of people taking individual reports seriously here. It's just trivial to dismiss most of them as obvious fakes, upon examination. And the value of a "me too" post to dismiss a fake is very low when the fakery is obvious. So you might see more posts from people who don't yet have the ability to discern legitimate reports from fakery, as opposed to reasoned out commentary on what is normally garbage.

Regarding the UFO as spirit/dimensional hypothesis: this sounds like Jacques Vallee's "Multidimensional Visitation Hypothesis". He has some very interesting books which lead more or less explicitly to the conclusion, and additionally examines the ET hypothesis in great detail prior to investigating the MDV hypothesis.

Does anyone have any authors besides Jacques Vallee to recommend for those interested in learning more about this hypothesis?

Originally posted by spiritualarchitect Like a skeptic, are you only believing what you want to, and discarding the things you do not want to be true?

Skeptics only disbelieve until sufficient evidence is presented. Neither would a true skeptic exclude the possibility of things which they don't have knowledge of. It has nothing to do with what they "want" to be true, quite the opposite in fact.

More broadly speaking, the burden of proof always lies with those who are making extraordinary claims. Skeptics are under no responsibility to disprove or deny such claims, and in fact it's not usually possible to do so.

Originally posted by Autograf
Does anyone have any authors besides Jacques Vallee to recommend for those interested in learning more about this hypothesis?

i would recommend John Keel as another researcher who reach same conclusion as Jacques Vallee..

it would be great also to read barbara bartholic's THE STORY OF A UFO INVESTIGATOR because she also worked with jacquess vallee and learned much from him on how to investigate the phenomena.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...



part of barbara's interview

Q: You’ve conducted a great number of hypnotic regressions with abductees over a long period of time. What drove you to devote years of research to the alien abduction phenomenon?

A:1984 was my last meeting with the world-class, brilliant scientist, Dr. Jacques Vallee. Through his inspiration, my research into alien human abuse and control has proved the hypothesis he proclaimed in his important book, ‘Invisible College’: “UFOs may constitute a control system.”

Why do I continue to research, under terrible duress, the most important subject in our universe? It’s clear. What could be more compelling than identifying what I call a “master control system” that defies all locks, law enforcement, physics, and governments, and last but not least, human rights; or identifying an alien-organized operation possessing such technical supremacy that they can hide in plain sight.

It’s a force that can delude people into refusing to believe in their existence. At the same time, alien manipulative “overlord ship” is altering the course of human life.

We are confronted and confounded by an intelligence that has the ability to:
- vacuum a car and its occupants right off the roadway and go unnoticed by all
- enter human minds or habitats day or night
- interfere with babies still in the womb
- abduct young children right from their beds or playgrounds undetected
- change the dynamics of relationships and love affairs
- cause disease
- create mental problems and drug addiction
- create wars and mutate generations as in their “Breed out the love” program
- These are just a few examples of the aliens’ abilities to modify human behavior and conditions.

im not necesarrily believe all the stuff in barbara's book, but its a worthy read

Originally posted by Autograf

Originally posted by spiritualarchitect Like a skeptic, are you only believing what you want to, and discarding the things you do not want to be true?

Skeptics only disbelieve until sufficient evidence is presented. Neither would a true skeptic exclude the possibility of things which they don't have knowledge of. It has nothing to do with what they "want" to be true, quite the opposite in fact.

More broadly speaking, the burden of proof always lies with those who are making extraordinary claims. Skeptics are under no responsibility to disprove or deny such claims, and in fact it's not usually possible to do so.

true statement..

though i see a lot of 'non thinking' people and scorners pretending to be open minded skeptics..

reply to post by milomilo


It's a shame, but as popular as this site is, it's a magnet for disinfo and suppression of sensitive topics, UFO's included, but among others, sensitive issues such as political conspiracies and geo-engineering topics included.

Not much serious information exchange happens within these topics, while the continuous merry-go-round of trolling, classic psychological (sometimes very skilled, sometimes basic) badgering and intimidation influenced techniques are clearly evidenced in postings by the 'usual members' who repeatedly employ such tactics whenever a sensitive topic is initiated.

The topic is derailed by certain long standing members, remarks are issued clearly designed using a psychological intimidatory bias attached and instead of progressive conversation revolving around genuine thoughts and ideas or concepts and theories, proof is invariably immediately demanded, genuine members mocked, which then derails the thread, by endless cycles of usless oneupmanship designed for purposes of steering away from meaningful and productive debate and so prevents further serious exchange...of course, this is exactly the intention.

While ATS seems to make obligatory gestures and overtures of impartiality, many mods and staff are anything but impartial, often closely scrutinising and then usually on fairly flimsey T&C or minor posting etiquette infractions, begin censoring the more speculative members' posts involved with attempting to discuss possibilities and air theories for information exchange and dialogue purposes, while predominantly overlooking similar or sometimes worse infractions made by those members who are more, let's say 'establishment' orientated.

Many people have picked up on this and posted similar accounts of i happening to them. Some accounts of this are undoubtably sour grapes, paranoia and so on, but certainly not all.

I think the upshot is that ATS can be a fun and sometimes interesting site to frivolously while away some free time, but in reality it's not a good place for serious discussion of topics of interest that contradict established or mainstream teachings or opinions.

That's probably why we don't see many high profile researchers here, or if they do come by, they quickly realise what is going on and don't hang around for very long.

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by milomilo

 

... intimidation influenced techniques are clearly evidenced in postings by the 'usual members' who repeatedly employ such tactics whenever a sensitive topic is initiated.

The topic is derailed by certain long standing members, remarks are issued clearly designed using a psychological intimidatory bias attached ...

... endless cycles of usless oneupmanship designed for purposes of steering away from meaningful and productive debate and so prevents further serious exchange...

i see certain 'long time members' that continuously put on snarky remarks , scorn and outright insult on a lot of UFO topics.. its like he did it purposedly / following certain personal agenda or something..

i still dont understand how such people stay on forums if they contribute nothing but mindless criticizm and intimidation/insults on people..

such are considered bullies in real life,..

reply to post by milomilo

Is it possible to group serious UFO threads into a sub-forum thread and those that focus on sensationalism and blurry photographs/movies into other sub forum ? its getting hard to filter serious threads from the sensationalism threads.

No, I don't think this is possible, because you are asking the mods (and members) to distinguish between "serious" and "non-serious" content associated with a highly subjective topic. Who will decide if a UFO topic is "serious" or not?

Other than the extremes on both ends of the spectrum, a great many of the UFO/Alien ATS threads fall close to the middle, and many more, perhaps most, actually straddle the middle, with elements of "seriousness" as perceived by some (esp. the OP), and interpreted as "not-so-serious" by others.

No, unfortunately, with a subject as volatile and ill-defined as Aliens/UFOs, with strong opinions all over the map, complicated by the vagaries of human nature and myriad personalities, such a thing as you suggest will not be possible.

But, as Albert Einstein would say, "...it's an intriguing thought-experiment!"

Thanks for posting - it gives us something more to think about...

reply to post by milomilo


There are so many aspects relating to the UFO pheomena that is hard to keep a neutral position and perspective on things, especially since when researching the phenomena you cannot avoid stumbling upon the interdimensional hypothesis' and thus, if one wish to research the subject of UFOs to a greater extent one must also allow quite bizzare alternative realities to be possible. It is quite frustrating as I am sure many of us feel when looking closer at the phenomena.

At first glimpse it appears that they are indeed material objects, but then you realize that they appear to defy the laws of gravity and then they disappear and reappear out of thin air which make you consider stealth technology but just to make it even more difficult we have the alien abductees to take into account and also the supposed contactees of modern times, some stating that it was all physical experiences while others claim that it was a matter of spiritual phenomena.
Diving even deeper into this bottomless pit of question one eventually will stumble upon the theory regarding ancient UFOs and alien intervention in Mankinds' evolution.
As if that wasn't enough, interpretations of ancient texts suggest that the angels and demons described were in fact alien visitor while other claim it is a matter of interdimensional shapeshifting beings possessing the minds of ordinary people, especially those in power.
And here we sit, scratching our heads trying to figure out what in bloody reality is going on here.
Either they are physical craft controlled by physical entities, anghelic or demonic spirits, multidimensional alien or earthly entities or man made craft of which governments are not willing to release any concrete information about.
Oh, and let's not forget the crop circles. Now that is fascinating!

One thing is for certain; the phenomena is real and it does indeed feel as if we are slowly coming to a better understanding of this seemingly ancient enigma.

I have seen two orange glowing orb flying in formation and crossing each other flight path just above my apartment building. Now, a family member of mine used to be an airplane pilot so I can tell if it is an airplane or a satellite and I don't suppose airplanes flax their wings.. So either it was just my mind playing tricks on me or they were real as the air I breathe, if I am not in the matrix that is.

Whatever it is it is fascinating.