Should a permit be required to have babies?

reply to post by danielsil18


Would also, then, want to prohibit freewill in the kids allowed to exist so that they read the "right" things, make all the "correct" choices, and become one of a homogenized society?

All "for a better future for society" as you've said several times, of course.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

Okay... In MY mind, that pretty well includes every radical liberal in this nation. I'll bet to the radical, far left? The ban would MORE than include me. So who determines what is "fit to raise a child" and what is not? I'd be interested in seeing written and specific criteria on that, but then we may also get into the nightmares shown by 0 tolerance attitudes elsewhere. No room to think means evil has no challenges to overcome, IMO.

I haven't thought much about this but I had in mind that maybe people who know about the psychology of children. Professionals who know what can affect the life of a child. Be it living in a bad neighborhood, being financial unstable, etc.

edit on 26-2-2013 by danielsil18 because: (no reason given)

Well, I am trying to temper this a bit because I don't want to seem to quash your general idea. To be blunt, 7 billion human beings may be sustainable on Earth, however, that number subjected to more exponential growth will NOT be sustainable for much longer, IMO. Something DOES need done about unchecked reproduction when we're literally over-running our whole planet with it. We'll ALL die some day for lack of having controlled the births of new people now.

It's just that detail issue and it's quite a mountain to climb, isn't it? If you have like minded and law abiding people? This isn't a major issue after all and your permit system would probably work. We're anything but like minded though and plenty break the laws for the pure 'rebel thrill' of breaking laws, let alone for cause. So...that enforcement thing is where I keep getting hung up. It's a fine fine line between effective and evil, I think.

I think that if you're on welfare, as a condition of receiving money, you should not be able to have more children until you are self supporting.

The state should not be paying money so you can sit at home and have more kids.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by danielsil18

 

A couple could pass all the tests and exams you would prescribe and still end up being lousy parents raising stupid kids with prejudices, anger issues, history of sexual abuse, severe mental illnesses etc., etc.

edit on 2/26/2013 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

Parents would have to be checked to see if they are able to raise a child. I don't think it would be perfect, lousy parents might still pass everything. But I think it would help.

The bad thing is that today, absolutely anyone can have a baby.

In answer to your question, no. In the land of the free we should be able to swig a 20 oz cola, have a baby, and smoke to our hearts desire. It is folks with opinions such as yours that are ruining our country.

Now I would like to bring up the subject of stress. According to many studies modern society has too much stress. Perhaps they should sit back and examine ways to decrease stress? Even just our government discussing taking away liberties causes stress. Then once they do, even more effects are felt. Say for example, folks are ordering a pizza and and need a 2 litre bottle of pop. So then they have to also drive to the supermarket to get a bottle since it is against the law for the pizza joint to sell them one. Either that or they must order many expensive 16 oz bottles which stare them down during dinner and remind them that they are no longer free. This is heartburn city if you ask me.

And what is the end result of all this stress? Decreased health, depression and a cynical outlook on life. The perfect recipe for mass shootings etc...

Perhaps government should be looking for ways to improve the stress levels of its citizens. Working with the people instead of dictating to them. Feeling in control of their own lives makes a big difference.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Would also, then, want to prohibit freewill in the kids allowed to exist so that they read the "right" things, make all the "correct" choices, and become one of a homogenized society?

All "for a better future for society" as you've said several times, of course.

I haven't thought about the freewill of kids, I think that would have to have it's own thread. But if it guarantees a better society, why not?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

Well, I am trying to temper this a bit because I don't want to seem to quash your general idea. To be blunt, 7 billion human beings may be sustainable on Earth, however, that number subjected to more exponential growth will NOT be sustainable for much longer, IMO. Something DOES need done about unchecked reproduction when we're literally over-running our whole planet with it. We'll ALL die some day for lack of having controlled the births of new people now.

It's just that detail issue and it's quite a mountain to climb, isn't it? If you have like minded and law abiding people? This isn't a major issue after all and your permit system would probably work. We're anything but like minded though and plenty break the laws for the pure 'rebel thrill' of breaking laws, let alone for cause. So...that enforcement thing is where I keep getting hung up. It's a fine fine line between effective and evil, I think.

We agree right here that something needs to be done, maybe not a permit but something. The thought that anyone can have a child is not good. You can have two of the worst parents possible and no one is stopping them from having a baby.

reply to post by danielsil18


Childbirth is an act of nature... just like going pee, etc. We aren't born with a lot of instincts... which explains diapers and scraped knees. But... I'd rather trust human nature, as faulty as it may be, than some bloated bureaucracy when it comes to reproduction.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
I think that if you're on welfare, as a condition of receiving money, you should not be able to have more children until you are self supporting.

The state should not be paying money so you can sit at home and have more kids.

Thinking economically that's true. Children cost money to raise, if someone doesn't have money then why have them at that time.

reply to post by danielsil18

I haven't thought about the freewill of kids, I think that would have to have it's own thread. But if it guarantees a better society, why not?

Why not???

You might as well say you wish to create a "better society" composed of biological robots.

If I could I would like strip this idea you had out of freewill, because to me personally I think it is incredibly flawed and misguided.

But I wouldn't even if I could because freewill is a large part of what makes us human and everyone has the right to make whatever choices they want, think what they want, learn what they want, and do what they want.

reply to post by elouina


I don't agree that people like me are ruining the country, I think bad parents raising children with a bad future are one of the many ruining this country.

I don't think freedom will solve many things right now.

Originally posted by danielsil18
reply to post by InhaleExhale

 

I agree that a driving license doesn't make everyone good driver, but it prevents really bad drivers from being legal drivers.

Having babies is way too easy in my opinion, there needs to be some kind of control where not everyone is allowed to have them, only the ones that can raise them well.

Maybe a license is not the answer, but something has to control it. For a better society of course.

No it does not prevent really bad drivers from being legal. it just allows legal drivers to kill each other and call the killings accidents. For further clarification of this statement just ask and I will try my best to get my point across in an understandable fashion.

Control is power over another and the more control pushed on society is what will lead to horrors we have never experienced.

Control leads to tyranny.

Humans are very corruptible so who will decide whats wrong and whats right?

I have asked myself the same question as the title OP but if you can up with an answer it shows in my opinion that you wish to control others and use the children as an excuse to make oneself look noble.

There is no solution that can be implemented that wont be discriminating against or demoralizing an individual or a group.

reply to post by InhaleExhale

There is no solution that can be implemented that wont be discriminating against or demoralizing an individual or a group.

Yes, there is.
EDUCATION in parenting. BEFORE puberty. Or at the very minimum, IMMEDIATELY COMMENCING during pregnancy, along with prenatal medical care.

If everyone knew the basics of parenting from the time they were children, and had access to birth control and good quality supervision, it would work.

Originally posted by danielsil18
reply to post by elouina

 

I don't agree that people like me are ruining the country, I think bad parents raising children with a bad future are one of the many ruining this country.

I don't think freedom will solve many things right now.

We tend to generalize that which we cannot explain. True, the science/art of parenting seems to be lost on the younger generation but... where does the fault lie? In humans themselves? Or in the society and culture that bred them?

Knee-jerking laws and ordinances won't fix anything. At best, it will merely cover a small portion from sight.

Surrendering liberty won't solve a thing. Leaving critical choices to others who are no better than you, will not make you a better person.

Maybe we should look a little deeper.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Would also, then, want to prohibit freewill in the kids allowed to exist so that they read the "right" things, make all the "correct" choices, and become one of a homogenized society?

All "for a better future for society" as you've said several times, of course.

I haven't thought about the freewill of kids, I think that would have to have it's own thread. But if it guarantees a better society, why not?

Because that is the risk we take to live in a free society.

Every civilization in recorded human history is DEFINED by the choices made regarding this inevitable struggle between free-will and happiness of the individual vs. social order. Nearly every single time, when the hammer falls on the side of Order at the sake of freewill the society not only becomes cruel, but it stagnates--economically, intellectually, productively--all aspects are affected. However, when individuals are allowed to pursue happiness and wealth, societies prosper, again in all aspects. There are a few exceptions, but they are few.

For your opening video of one really bad mom, (and probably lousy human being), I will raise you the Nazi eugenices program. Look into that, and see just what it is that you are REALLY proposing here.

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Childbirth is an act of nature... just like going pee, etc. We aren't born with a lot of instincts... which explains diapers and scraped knees. But... I'd rather trust human nature, as faulty as it may be, than some bloated bureaucracy when it comes to reproduction.

But would you trust profesionals who know how to raise a child? No one teaches us how to be parents, it's just instincts and experience passed down from our parents. But what happens when many don't know and are actually immature?

There are protitutes that get pregnant on purpose because they get paid more when they sell their body when pregnant. After the baby is born who knows where they send them. The prostitutes get pregnant again and start making more money.

I just think it's way to easy to have children in this days.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Coming soon!

Permits required to engage in foreplay.

Oral sex bans.

These can lead to the dangerous act of coitus which has a chance of conception.

More to come, Big Brother.

edit on 2/26/2013 by Chamberf=6 because: come pun intended

I think permits to make sure children have a better future has a better value than all the ones you listed.

I know that we might have a bit less freedom, but it's a small sacrifice for a better future (that's if it's not abused for someone's agenda).

Your better future is your neighbors worse future, how do you resolve the issue of perception?

What you like might not be liked by all, how does one make all like what you like, its been done many times in history, its called fear.

Create a fear of brim future so as to control the present, how can one be certain their outlook of a brim future is correct?


Too many issues when more control is being implemented, look at our wonderful societies of today, One power tells another what is good or not, they disagree, one thing leads to another and these powers have created war that they will rarely suffer and frequently profit from.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well, I am trying to temper this a bit because I don't want to seem to quash your general idea. To be blunt, 7 billion human beings may be sustainable on Earth, however, that number subjected to more exponential growth will NOT be sustainable for much longer, IMO. Something DOES need done about unchecked reproduction when we're literally over-running our whole planet with it. We'll ALL die some day for lack of having controlled the births of new people now.

You must have missed my post but global fertility rates have been declining. Here in the US, our total fertility rate is 2.06. Or, to put it another way--a baby is born in the US every 8 seconds and somebody dies ever 12 seconds here. Slightly above 0. Globally, it looks like this: www.google.com...

I was really surprised to find out about the declining population rate. Years ago, I was, as a part of cultural geography, taught about doubling time, fertility rates, crude birth/death rates, and whatnot. Overpopulation was a huge issue. Now it's a huge issue in some countries but not so much in other countries or the opposite problem exists--depopulation. Go figure, eh?

s/f to the OP!!

I believe something needs to be done, as well, but "permits" don't really have that much effect. In my area, we're supposed to get "permits" to do lots of stuff. Most of us ignore it. Permits are money-making schemes.

Early and quality Education is the key.

For what it's worth, eugenics is an ancient idea and presented many times over the centuries. I just finished reading Plato's "Dialogues" - he discussed his "perfect society" and its development, and included managing who marries whom, who has kids, and what to do with "unapproved" marriages and children.

Supervision of new parents by trained educators is done now (I was one for a long time), and is effective. MOST normal people who find themselves parents actually want to do a good job. They simply lack the tools and sklls, which can be taught. But letting people just have babies with no supervision or training or preparation is ASININE.

People now think it is tyranny, but that's just programming. It's actually a good idea. He also talks about EDUCATION being the critical element for any child, as well as finding their strengths and temperaments and taking those into account, thereby "assigning" tasks to be focused on by individuals.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by danielsil18

 

I haven't thought about the freewill of kids, I think that would have to have it's own thread. But if it guarantees a better society, why not?

Why not???

You might as well say you wish to create a "better society" composed of biological robots.

If I could I would like strip this idea you had out of freewill, because to me personally I think it is incredibly flawed and misguided.

But I wouldn't even if I could because freewill is a large part of what makes us human and everyone has the right to make whatever choices they want, think what they want, learn what they want, and do what they want.

edit on 2/26/2013 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

I'm not saying that people shouldn't think what they want or do what they want.

I'm saying there should be a limit to what they can do when another life is going to be affected. A baby is affected.