If God is perfect then....

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Coercive to who? If someone doesn't believe in God then they have nothing to worry about. You kinda killed your own argument with that last statement. You say you're going to run your life your way, then turn around and worry about going to Hell.

reply to post by chrome413

Coercive to who? If someone doesn't believe in God then they have nothing to worry about. You kinda killed your own argument with that last statement. You say you're going to run your life your way, then turn around and worry about going to Hell.

I was arguing with your statement that according to your beliefs, nonbelievers have nothing to worry about. I don't believe in heaven or hell, outside of adjectives describing how we feel about something. But I believe that these concepts, inside of Judaic systems, have a detrimental effect on spiritual progress. These concepts are part of a web that encourages spirituality for the wrong reasons.

And yes, the threat of damnation is coercive to all who are subject to it. Read the Bible again.

There is no excuse. If there is a God, he is not moral nor good nor all-knowing. Otherwise he would have made humans incapable of feeling jealousy, hate, sadness, and all other emotions of the negative spectrum.

I have not read all the pages of the thread, so I will start with these questions to help elucidate the initial conditions.

The questions you pose cause one to infer that emotion is merely a human emotion. If we agree to this, we then assume that for God to be perfect he would have to, in as many ways as possible, not resemble the human condition. Therefore, we assume he has no emotion, or at least not in the same sense as we can comprehend. Is this your antecedent? Would His version of "love" or "hate" or even "ambiguity" for that matter even be intelligible to us even if they were present in Him?

Secondly, if our concept of "love" and "hate" is only the way we can experience these two “emotions”, the other variable in your question that is not addressed is the idea of "perfection" itself. What, in your question, is able to be said towards a truly "perfect" God? Would this perfection even be intelligible to us at all?

Depending on your definition of perfect the question you pose can vary indefinitely.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity


I was arguing with your statement that according to your beliefs, nonbelievers have nothing to worry about.

When did I make that statement? I made a statement similar in the post previous to this, however there is no way you could have been arguing with that, because I had not yet made it. So I don't quite understand what you mean.

I am curious though, why are you so antagonistic? It's fairly obvious to anyone who has read your posts on ATS that your mind is already made up regarding God. And that's fine with me. Everyone has a path to follow. But why come into a conversation and ask questions that you don't want answers to? Just to start an argument? Because that's how you come off with your catty little "get out of my way"s and "read your bible again"s. I'd like to think people are civilized enough to have an intelligent conversation without the need for childish remarks.

If you don't want anyone's opinion then don't come into a conversation asking questions. Go and do your own thing. That's what I'm going to do.

Originally posted by Jepic
There is no excuse. If there is a God, he is not moral nor good nor all-knowing. Otherwise he would have made humans incapable of feeling jealousy, hate, sadness, and all other emotions of the negative spectrum.

Why do you think that?

Has nothing positive ever come from your 'negative spectrum' feelings?

And, if that were the case, wouldn't some still argue/complain that God is controlling us and not letting us experience the full range of emotions? We wouldn't have the 'free will' that humans are so proud of.
If you have kids (or are going to have kids) can you genuinely say that you NEVER want them to experience a negative emotion?

For me, honestly, I am most grateful for the negative emotions, thoughts, and experiences I have encountered. They allowed me to learn and grow. They allowed me to grow in to who I am today. It was through the darkest years of my life that I realized...'All I want is to A) be happy and B) help others who aren't happy become happy.'

I'd say that is quite a 'positive' side-effect of feeling 'negative' emotions, wouldn't you?

Besides, who the heck are we (you) to say what a 'perfect' God would do?
(I recommend looking back at a few of my responses on page 4. )

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by Jepic
There is no excuse. If there is a God, he is not moral nor good nor all-knowing. Otherwise he would have made humans incapable of feeling jealousy, hate, sadness, and all other emotions of the negative spectrum.

Why do you think that?

Has nothing positive ever come from your 'negative spectrum' feelings?

And, if that were the case, wouldn't some still argue/complain that God is controlling us and not letting us experience the full range of emotions? We wouldn't have the 'free will' that humans are so proud of.
If you have kids (or are going to have kids) can you genuinely say that you NEVER want them to experience a negative emotion?

For me, honestly, I am most grateful for the negative emotions, thoughts, and experiences I have encountered. They allowed me to learn and grow. They allowed me to grow in to who I am today. It was through the darkest years of my life that I realized...'All I want is to A) be happy and B) help others who aren't happy become happy.'

I'd say that is quite a 'positive' side-effect of feeling 'negative' emotions, wouldn't you?

Besides, who the heck are we (you) to say what a 'perfect' God would do?
(I recommend looking back at a few of my responses on page 4.

)

reply to post by mrperplexed


Dear mrperplexed,

However in relation to a perfect God, Emotion equals compromise, this imperfection.

I do not see emotion as a compromise, we are sentient beings and we are impacted by our experiences. The shortest sentence in the bible is "Jesus wept". God created a dynamic universe, one forever changing. Neither God nor his creations are emotionless as we are made in his image. Perhaps you could describe the characteristics that you believe God would have.

reply to post by arpgme


Dear arpgme,

He did not define his concept of "God" at all other than to say that he would have no emotion. I cannot speak for Buddhists or Muslims, I have to respond with the God I believe in.

Originally posted by littled16

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

God is not gross matter. God created the human to express itself; to know itself as dense matter. God does not have a physical brain or body. You are its expressions coming back to it and describing your experiences. It learns from you. It cannot feel emotion, only catalogs it as 'this is that is' electrically and more importantly magnetically: I am describing moments in creation, it has a better grasp on those idea forms now through entropy (time) enabling it to understand the 'concept' of emotion; it has to be human fully to grasp that concept. Has that event occurred yet and if not why? Jesus is not returning as Savior, he is already here, and very unwilling to sacrifice himself again. PTSD disorder Big Time.

edit on 26-2-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

It may sound funny, but the way you describe your perception of God makes Him sound like an emotionless "super computer" that has to send out drones to collect data. If the "super computer" knows nothing of emotions how would it be able to program the "drones" to experience them and report back to it, and how would it be able to interpret the data?

I can't say that I'm "on board" with your explanation but I find it an interesting concept. I do however agree with you in this: If I were the Messiah I would be hesitant to risk a repeat of my last visit and would probably have PTSD. It's a good thing I'm not or the denizens of Earth would probably be in big trouble.

It is not a perception of God, and yes it was an emotionless blob of energyform. The Drone idea is a good one if attempting a visual construct of the strange events that followed in this Creation Of ITSELF as matter, as living Organisms in a Gross environment. The super computer analogy is as good as any I can think of; drones thinking BEEs thinking LIFE giving pollenation to all plants. Pentium chips with MacBook wings/flippers. The recalcitrant PTSD Messiah is in good hands, when and if or needed will be ready for one big firefight, already armed with ARs to the teeth and has no idea why, or the symbolism that is attached to that past life.

reply to post by AQuestion

He did not define his concept of "God" at all other than to say that he would have no emotion. I cannot speak for Buddhists or Muslims, I have to respond with the God I believe in.

Islam believes in the same god. That's why it's also an Abrahamic religion. Different descriptions. Yes. Some the same. Just like the different descriptions in the differing canon from the different Christian denominations. Also of note: the word for 'god' in the Arabic translation of the Christian Bible is 'Allah'. It's just the word of their language.

Now if you disagree that's fine. I don't believe either are connected to divinity are therefore I don't believe in the 'proper one' or the 'correct interpretation' etc.

Buddhism it depends on the sect of Buddhism. Some there is no deity at all, in others there are. Some it's more or less psychological in nature, in others very much incorporate incorporeal realms of existence.

I found this very interesting.

www.religionfacts.com...

reply to post by Philodemus

The questions you pose cause one to infer that emotion is merely a human emotion. If we agree to this, we then assume that for God to be perfect he would have to, in as many ways as possible, not resemble the human condition. Therefore, we assume he has no emotion, or at least not in the same sense as we can comprehend. Is this your antecedent? Would His version of "love" or "hate" or even "ambiguity" for that matter even be intelligible to us even if they were present in Him?

That is exactly my point - in that particular facet of the matter, at least. If he is above human, beyond human, then everything about him should be foreign to us. Yet we assume this to mean that his expressions of our ideas should be completely opposed to how we have defined them? Above and beyond does not mean opposite to. In this sense, we should have redefined every single emotion we are aware of according to his standards. We should emulate his expressions, his behavior. We should be drowning our teenagers and poisoning our children to test their love for us. And yet, we haven't. Why is that?

Secondly, if our concept of "love" and "hate" is only the way we can experience these two “emotions”, the other variable in your question that is not addressed is the idea of "perfection" itself. What, in your question, is able to be said towards a truly "perfect" God? Would this perfection even be intelligible to us at all?

Perfection depends on what makes us happy. If "God" claims to be perfect, then he is exactly what makes him happy. If someone declares "God" to be perfect, it is because he makes them happy. Or it's because they don't have an original thought in their head.

I mean, they're not happy with their job or their mortgage, but they are willing to thank god for the food on their table? Not a single thought for the immigrants who picked it, the factory workers who processed it, the driver who shipped it, the store employees who stored it, and the clerk who sold it to them? Come on...

reply to post by mrperplexed


They say if you don't believe in him or Jesus not really sure which one. You will burn in hell for eternity. Sounds like a scare tactic to me only aimed at controlling you. I just find it hilarious people think they know everything about God but they have never met him.

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by mrperplexed

 

What makes you think that lack of emotion is equal to perfection? If God made man in his own image and man is an emotional being wouldn't that imply that God is an emotional being as well? If you think that God does not experience emotion then apparently you have never read the Bible. Give it a read and see what you think.

How do you know God made man in his own image....because some books says so? I read a book that says pigs can fly is that true also?

Originally posted by mrperplexed
He will have no emotion or care that I do not believe in him.

He will have no emotion or care that you do believe in him.

Or am I wrong? (If so, why?)

Faith is the perfect creation. It requires you to ponder and balance that question using logic, free will and reason together to get to your answer.

Starting off a path of knowledge by putting your foot down, crossing your arms and refusing to receive the signs, isn't very wise. Open your heart and mind and FLUSH what the humans around you say and do to the contrary. That's step one.

Step two - "Write or wrong", pray, pray, pray for wisdom enlightenment and understanding. Demand it and you are a bonehead like the rest. Just ask. It's ok to be humble and ask to know the truth.

To answer your question:

I cannot speak for God, the Creator as to what "he" loves or doesn't love, it isn't my place. No human should pretend to.

All of this information, this streaming, non-stop limitless data that flows through your screen as you search for truth can never in a billion years compare to you picking the highest mountain your legs will carry you to, hiking up it, sitting on top and asking for your answers.

Perfection in what we can express is like a dog staring at a Magician, levitating a girl above the ground. At what point does the Magician stop and explain to the dog, his actions?

There in-lies the biggest problem with faith these days - Authority.

If at your core, you are so broken that the idea of authority angers you, you're going to probably be recycled for a long time until you get to where you can understand the yin, the yang and the natural order of hierarchy.

Blessed be your journey and swift, to find his love.

reply to post by Eldensword

Faith is the perfect creation. It requires you to ponder and balance that question using logic, free will and reason together to get to your answer.

Incorrect. Faith is an irrational response to a very particular emotion that says, "I have a very good reason to lie to myself about the odds of this situation." Realistically, you'd run for the hills. Irrationally, you stick to your guns because you know that at least if you lose, you won't have to be afraid. You'll just be dead.

Starting off a path of knowledge by putting your foot down, crossing your arms and refusing to receive the signs, isn't very wise. Open your heart and mind and FLUSH what the humans around you say and do to the contrary. That's step one.

Interpreting signs according to either your own desires or according to the whims of those who couldn't begin to understand the nature to which they attribute such signs isn't very wise. Rather, it speaks of desperation and weakness. Desperation for an easy answer and the weakness to accept it.

Perfection in what we can express is like a dog staring at a Magician, levitating a girl above the ground. At what point does the Magician stop and explain to the dog, his actions?

If you're describing us as dogs, then speak for yourself.

There in-lies the biggest problem with faith these days - Authority.

If at your core, you are so broken that the idea of authority angers you, you're going to probably be recycled for a long time until you get to where you can understand the yin, the yang and the natural order of hierarchy.

Actually, I'm rather fond of the idea of choosing my own destiny. If I was meant to be a puppet, then why give me a brain? Authority has little to do with it - unless you mean the authoritarian nature of "God". In which case, yes, that has a lot to do with it. I don't understand why Americans fight to keep their civil liberties only to embrace totalitarianism when they die. Six days of the week we scorn the government and its attempts to secure our souls, then we go to church on Sunday and thank "God" for his promise to make us immortal as long as we give him everything.

Wow. Are we really that blind? It's frightening, how weak and easily fooled we are. But what's more frightening is how any bully can come along and just harvest us like corn. Where has integrity gone? Self-respect? Compassion? The will to fight for one another? The burning ambition to be loving and courageous leaders of this world? All I see is a billion sheep led by a handful of wolves.

Perfection? None of us knows a damn thing about it. Not even you Christians.

Originally posted by mrperplexed
He will have no emotion or care that I do not believe in him.

He will have no emotion or care that you do believe in him.

Or am I wrong? (If so, why?)

What is perfect?
If GOD knew everything then he would have the concept and answer to _everything_
There would be no "flow" and he would quickly grind to a halt.
A perfect GOD cannot exist because of this.
Limbo

Originally posted by Jepic

Nothing positive comes from the negative spectrum.

Exactly. So by creating the negative spectrum along with the positive spectrum he literally created confusion among us. Positive and negative are always at war. Both cannot co-exist peacefully. I'm sure God knows that. Yet knowing this he decided to go ahead. It shows you the true nature of your God. A god of conflict and confusion. A God not interested in Harmony.

God isn't interested in Harmony? Says who?
Every where I look I see harmony.
The fact that we are on a tiny pebble of a planet, perfectly positioned and orbiting around a sun, in a solar system that has co-existed for billions of years in a galaxy that is pummeling through the cosmos at a rate our brains can't even comprehend.
The only thing keeping us to the ground is a perfect amount of gravity as well as a perfectly created atmosphere that protects us from the space elements.
Our bodies produces millions of blood cells every second. We have trillions of (6 trillion roughly) brain cells that function in sync. We breathe in purified air and exhale toxic fumes....yet thankfully have an entire ecosystem at our disposal that feeds off of our breath and in turn supplies us with more oxygen.
When there are too many predators in the wild, the food supply diminishes which then lowers the population of the predators...but when the population of the predators lowers the population of the 'food' then returns and the cycle starts all over.
From clouds to rain to rivers to oceans to clouds and back.
The forest is alive with decay. The dead becomes the food for the growing.
(I could go on and on and on with examples)
Every where we look in nature we see balance and order and harmony.

The only thing that is disharmonious is our choices. Our actions. We choose suffering (the vast majority of us do at least.) Do you blame God for your bad feelings? Do you blame God for you being jealous or angry? Since when was that His responsibility? I thought we all had control over our emotions, no? Freewill, right?

Yin and yang. Dark and light. Positive and negative. Night and day. Hot and Cold. Dry and Wet. Black and White. Republican and Democrat. Us and them.
You see, we live in a world of dichotomy. But it is only ourselves that choose how we react to and interact with such a world. Metaphysically speaking, there is NO separation between anything. Also, metaphysically speaking, everything is happening right NOW. So how could there be bad? How can there be good? How can there be the past and how can there be a future?

The majority of ALL 'negative' emotions stem from either A) dwelling over the past or B) Worrying over the future. Both of which, as I just discussed, do not exist. There is only Now. If we learn how to live in the Now, and center ourselves, align our thoughts and intentions with our highest good, then we can end suffering.

IMO, the 'negative' is one of the greatest gifts God gave us. We already came from 'The Source.' We've already lived (and are infinitely living) with God, within The Source, in perfect harmony, forever and every Amen. It's where we came from. It's where we are going. But our souls have chosen to live HERE. To experience this world, in all of it's 'bad' and 'good.' We wanted to know what it was like to live separate from God, so we could thus choose (through 'freewill' again) to re-unite with God. It is that choice that makes our connection with God even that much more powerful. If we don't "get it" on this go around...there will most likely be another try. (Read the book 'Only Love is Real' by Brian Weiss if you want to learn about reincarnation.)

You seem to think that nothing has come from your negative experiences. Really? Really really? That sounds like a pretty victimized mindset, if I do say so myself. I challenge you to re-think that opinion. Chances are, some of the GREATEST connections, moments, realizations, relationships, etc, etc, stemmed from the situations that you deem 'negative.'

But, whatever you do, don't try to tell other people that 'nothing good comes from the negative.' Because I can tell you without a doubt that I would not be nearly the human I am today if it weren't for the emotional and physical hardships I have gone through in the past. I am ever so grateful for them.

God doesn't see negative OR positive. He just see's what is and is at peace with that.
You should try the same.

Cheers.

I am not religious, but it seems to me that trying to judge the perfection of an omnipotent, multidimensional being from your limited, physical, 3d perceptions, is folly. You can't judge his judgments, in other words. You have no idea what "perfection" means to such an entity. All you know is that things don't seem perfect to you. It might be all according to plan and you will never know one way or another.