If God is perfect then....

reply to post by backcase


I wouldn't say so much as ignorance... more like a huge sense of pity. I pity someone who has such a lack of faith in the power of themselves they must rely on the word of a false prophet and god to get through life.

I'm far from ignorant compared to people of Christianity or other monotheistic religions. These are the people that start wars, take money from people, and ridicule you if you do not believe. Any religion that turns a profit is NOT truth.

Originally posted by clairvoyantrose
reply to post by backcase

 

I'm far from ignorant compared to people of Christianity or other monotheistic religions.

Here is your claim.

And here is your claim from your last post

Originally posted by clairvoyantrose
They separate themselves and put themselves up higher

Seems hypocritical to me. You have lumped all people of a faith into one group and discard them as if THEY are the arrogant ones! If you see people as collective members and not as individual spirits, then you have the intentions which all the war mongers have in yourself!

You should love all people and be consistent in your claims.

You hate and contempt an entire group of people who you judge and know nothing about, kind of like a man who decided that Jews were the cause of all wars and all of a county's problems. hmm... what was his name...

reply to post by clairvoyantrose


sorry, I may have exaggerated a bit with that last post but still, try at least to understand what I mean

Originally posted by backcase
You hate and contempt an entire group of people who you judge and know nothing about, kind of like a man who decided that Jews were the cause of all wars and all of a county's problems. hmm... what was his name...

edit on 112828p://222 by backcase because: (no reason given)

Godwin's law is now in effect. Thanks for participating in this discussion everyone, you can go home now.

Originally posted by mrperplexed

And I see your logic on idolatry actually. The thing is, how can I accept him "as is" when he has never proven to me that he even exists. I am not certain of my stance.. He may exist, He may not, but when he is touted to be "perfect", that puts parameters around him. And if he is indeed perfect, he wouldnt punish me for all of eternity for not believing in him. Me, his imperfect creation that he has shown no proof of existence to. I think it is a fair question considering my eternal damnation is on the line.

What would it take to prove to you that God exists? There are many things of this Earth that we THINK we can prove. Does love exist? We can feel it, we can bear witness to the effects of it- but can you see it? Touch it? Smell it? Taste it? The same could be applied to the existence of God- we can feel Him and witness the effects of His actions but cannot prove his existence with our physical senses. That doesn't mean that He does not exist anymore than the same lack of proof means that love does not exist. For those who have never felt love it does not exist and for those who have never felt God He does not exist, at least in their own perceptions.

As far as "perfection" goes you keep referring to yourself as an imperfect creation. Why do you feel this way? Each of us are perfect and exactly how we should be, including our ability to engage in using free will. Maybe it is just personal opinion but I don't believe that God wants mindless robots who just think what they are told to think else he wouldn't have given us the free will to make our own decisions. He wants us to use our brains and to seek our own truth. Just as a parent wants their children to learn to think for themselves He also wants for us, but He also wants what earthly parents want- which is the love and respect of His children. Parents do not always agree with or condone their children's actions, but they love them anyway and hope that one day they will "see the light", but the children must learn by their own experiences and come to conclusions on their own.

While you claim not to believe in God you seem to dwell on the possibility of eternal damnation. You can read every scrap of holy writings in the entire world but will never know for sure until it is your time to "meet your maker". These writings were written by MAN after all and after centuries of translations to various languages and personal opinions being injected into the writings we cannot be sure of what the original texts said and how much has been edited by those seeking to control others through religious means. You can only know for sure what you feel in your heart and soul, and just because you don't feel that God exists now does not mean that some time in your future something won't occur to change your feelings on it completely. Many believers have not always done so, and each one's path to find God is unique to him/her alone.

What would it take to prove to you that God exists?

This is a good question. Probably a supernatural personal experience that physically is manifested outside of my mind. I.e., not an epiphany of my mind.

As far as "perfection" goes you keep referring to yourself as an imperfect creation. Why do you feel this way?

I think it is concieted to think we ARE perfect. (Vanity) And honestly.... look what we have done to our planet...we are truly a parasitic virus of a species.

He also wants what earthly parents want- which is the love and respect of His children.

Any God that is "wanting" is not perfect.

While you claim not to believe in God you seem to dwell on the possibility of eternal damnation.

Only as a mechanism of my disbelief.. Meaning I cant believe that a just God would send me or anyone to eternal hellfire... that is no God that I have any interest in "worshiping".

Originally posted by Glass

Originally posted by backcase
You hate and contempt an entire group of people who you judge and know nothing about, kind of like a man who decided that Jews were the cause of all wars and all of a county's problems. hmm... what was his name...

edit on 112828p://222 by backcase because: (no reason given)

Godwin's law is now in effect. Thanks for participating in this discussion everyone, you can go home now.

I never heard for the "law", before but what I said achieves a certain scope. I'm sorry if I am not privy to your internet rules, but either way, you are not the thread author.

Originally posted by mrperplexed
He will have no emotion or care that I do not believe in him.

He will have no emotion or care that you do believe in him.

Or am I wrong? (If so, why?)

I understand where you're coming from.
I've been in the same boat before, questioning the same thing.

I think part of the dilemma here in answering this question is in the definition of 'perfect.'

IMO, 'perfect' does not mean 'no emotion.' For, 'no emotion' would be the equivalent of 'static' or 'unchanging.'
Yet, as we can see, this world and universe is in a constant state of motion, change, and osmosis. Constantly fluctuating.
It's like the sky at sunset. You ever just sit there and watch the sunset as it goes through several phases and changes in gradient? Sometimes i'll look at the sunset and think to myself, 'Wow. It's so beautiful...it's perfect.' But then, 10 minutes later, I look back and it's even better! Now, did it become 'more perfect?' Or did my perspective just change?
See, the sky is in a constant state of change...but...in my opinion at least...it is constantly perfect. Even if it's not as beautiful as sunrise or sunset, it is exactly the way it needs to be.

Even during a storm, the sky is perfect.

Now I am going to paste in a Facebook Status that I wrote the other day because I think it may sort of apply here...one way or another.

Time (thus reality, life, and existence as a whole) is relative only to the speed at which you are traveling or processing information. The closer we approach the speed of light, the slower reality becomes. If we could exceed the speed of light we, theoretically, would be able to see all of existence - past, present and future - all at once. Thus, you would no longer see time (or space) as a linear experience.
Let's suppose God is 'traveling' (more like vibrating) at a speed that infinitely surpasses 'light.' This God would know everything - what is, what was, and what will be - simultaneously. As in, 'all at once.' As in: time doesn't exist. As in: space doesn't exist. As in: We are all One. As in: Everything is happening Now. (And all that other new age spiritual mumbo jumbo jargon that is nonetheless...true.)
This God would obviously surpass human emotion, human judgement, human error, human thought and human form.
More so: we can assume, given the state of harmony and balance found in the 'natural' state of the universe, (an osmosis of perfection, if you will) that this God is a Loving God. It is only through the actions of 'humans' and our 'consciousness' (which we think we own) that an imbalance or disharmonious scenario is formed. It is not so much the 'consciousness' that gets in the way as it is the separation from all other consciousness. This was The Fall. The birth of The Ego. This is when we were kicked from the Garden.
However, if we as human beings, align our consciousness with the same Loving Intention that is found throughout the natural state of God, we can then pull more of that energy into our own lives and thus the entire world. If we choose to separate ourselves from this energy and burrow down in the lower vibrations - such as anger, hate, judgement, blame, worry, etc - then we will pull more of that energy into our existence (and we will thus think that 'God' is a reflection of the same essence...which 'He' is not.)

There is no conclusion to this. No Thesis Statement. Take from it what you will.


Cheers

reply to post by mrperplexed
That tells me that while you have claimed not to be sure of the existence of God that in actuality you most likely do- you just don't seem to like Him very much. In your opinion you would only acknowledge Him if He were to conform to your own specific ideal of what He should be. You have set in your mind your own definition of perfection and what that entails and seem absolutely convinced that your parameters are the correct ones. That could also be defined as vanity. I have my own ideas about what is perfect which could also be defined as vanity- and one of those ideas is that the only perfect truth is that in the grand scheme of things we know absolutely nothing. Yes we know scientific facts and the mechanisms and physics that rule our lives but of the spiritual realm we know no facts but instead rely on what we feel is true. If you really want to know God you must follow your own path in order to find Him. Holy writings and the accounts of others are merely a "jumping off" point. It is through our own experiences and feelings that we find Divinity, but in order to find it you must lower your defenses and be open to whatever experiences come your way and be open to the idea that what you believe is perfection may not be correct. I wish you well in your journey.

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by mrperplexed
He will have no emotion or care that I do not believe in him.

He will have no emotion or care that you do believe in him.

Or am I wrong? (If so, why?)

I understand where you're coming from.
I've been in the same boat before, questioning the same thing.

I think part of the dilemma here in answering this question is in the definition of 'perfect.'

IMO, 'perfect' does not mean 'no emotion.' For, 'no emotion' would be the equivalent of 'static' or 'unchanging.'
Yet, as we can see, this world and universe is in a constant state of motion, change, and osmosis. Constantly fluctuating.
It's like the sky at sunset. You ever just sit there and watch the sunset as it goes through several phases and changes in gradient? Sometimes i'll look at the sunset and think to myself, 'Wow. It's so beautiful...it's perfect.' But then, 10 minutes later, I look back and it's even better! Now, did it become 'more perfect?' Or did my perspective just change?
See, the sky is in a constant state of change...but...in my opinion at least...it is constantly perfect. Even if it's not as beautiful as sunrise or sunset, it is exactly the way it needs to be.

Now I am going to paste in a Facebook Status that I wrote the other day because I think it may sort of apply here...one way or another.

Time (thus reality, life, and existence as a whole) is relative only to the speed at which you are traveling or processing information. The closer we approach the speed of light, the slower reality becomes. If we could exceed the speed of light we, theoretically, would be able to see all of existence - past, present and future - all at once. Thus, you would no longer see time (or space) as a linear experience.
Let's suppose God is 'traveling' (more like vibrating) at a speed that infinitely surpasses 'light.' This God would know everything - what is, what was, and what will be - simultaneously. As in, 'all at once.' As in: time doesn't exist. As in: space doesn't exist. As in: We are all One. As in: Everything is happening Now. (And all that other new age spiritual mumbo jumbo jargon that is nonetheless...true.)
This God would obviously surpass human emotion, human judgement, human error, human thought and human form.
More so: we can assume, given the state of harmony and balance found in the 'natural' state of the universe, (an osmosis of perfection, if you will) that this God is a Loving God. It is only through the actions of 'humans' and our 'consciousness' (which we think we own) that an imbalance or disharmonious scenario is formed. It is not so much the 'consciousness' that gets in the way as it is the separation from all other consciousness. This was The Fall. The birth of The Ego. This is when we were kicked from the Garden.
However, if we as human beings, align our consciousness with the same Loving Intention that is found throughout the natural state of God, we can then pull more of that energy into our own lives and thus the entire world. If we choose to separate ourselves from this energy and burrow down in the lower vibrations - such as anger, hate, judgement, blame, worry, etc - then we will pull more of that energy into our existence (and we will thus think that 'God' is a reflection of the same essence...which 'He' is not.)

There is no conclusion to this. No Thesis Statement. Take from it what you will.


Cheers

I really like what you are saying here. And my beliefs may somewhat align with your statement, especially about past/present/future. However if that is the case and God experiences everything, then most every man made theory about God is flawed, because he already knows the outcome. You see if there is a God.. I doubt any human, or book could aptly tell me what His will is. Its just humans riddle him with so many human traits and flaws that he becomes un-divine.

reply to post by kingofmd

He cares, but he won't force Himself on you. He did you a favor and created a place void of all of His attributes, ie love, joy, peace, contentment etc. It's called hell. For everyone else He showed His love for us by dying on the cross, to pay the penalty for our sins. We get to be in His presence for eternity. I guess in the end, we both get what we want, so its win win.

But he only shows his love to those that believe the story, right? What of those who can't make themselves believe? Does God want people to pretend to believe?

I am borrowing these questions from my friend OpenEye.

I find this whole topic of faith and religion quite fascinating, I myself was raised Mormon. However, once I reached a certain age I realized that me and "faith" did not exactly mix; even as a child I did not really "feel" anything special when praying or reading the scriptures.

The reality of nature requires no faith to observe, as evidence exists to explain it. So why would God create a universe of for us to explain, but give no evidence for his existence as creator?

One may argue that "faith" is part of a test, to prove to him who is worthy. However, I find this argument quite odd.

Why would God require anything from us?

You said in a previous post that we were "created to worship him". Why? And if so why test us through faith?

A big part of this "test" is what I like to call "The Deception". This deals with Lucifer (and his Angels/Demons), who exists by the will of God (correct?). Satan actively works to undermine the work of God, despite God having the power to eliminate him from furthering temptation. This paradox led mormons to beleive that Lucifer was part of the Plan of Salvation, as if he did not tempt Eve then the Fall would have never taken place and Christs sacrafice would not have been necassary.

So I guess my question to you is, why does Lucifer exist?

Now on to questions of morality.

Many Christians, or should I say Abrahamic theists (for those who do not conform to any specific church) beleive that Gods morality is superior to ours. This may be the case, but I do not see how. For example, why was not slavery forbidden in the Ten Commandments? Or rape? Or the killing of children in the time of war? Why were these things seemingly condoned (perhaps not rape however it could be argued) in the past, but are now looked at as forbidden and wicked by the those who worship said god.

Exodus 22:18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.



Is this not a command from god to kill?

I ask this because if Gods morality is ultimate and perfect, why would it have changed with the passage of time?

That being said I contend that human morality (while seemingly imperfect) is potentially greater than said gods. God condemns for eternity those who do not worship him, because he as creator claims he has the right to. However, no compassionate human if given the powers of said god would necassirly do such a thing, I say this because I would not.

I beleive in punishment for a crime, but an eternal punishment of torture is something that not even humans would implement. If a murderer sentenced to life is rehabilitated, is he not deserving of some comapassion?

One may argue that Gods ways are beyond ours. But why does he not simply describe these "ways"? Like why must Hell exist? Or why "must" we worship him?

Originally posted by mrperplexed

"I doubt any human, or book could aptly tell me what His will is."

Exactly. (Nor can anyone on ATS.)
There are plenty of great books that 'hint' at and discuss 'what' God may be... but none of them can tell you, with utmost certainty, exactly 'what' (or 'who') God is.
A few of the most enlightening books I have read so far include:
'The Holographic Universe' by Michael Talbot
'Tao te Ching' by Lao Tzu
'Journey of Awakening' by Ram Dass
'Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah' by Richard Bach.
'Only Love is Real' by Brian Weiss MD
The New Testament - Specifically the 'red letter text' spoken by Jesus.
'Conversations with God' by Neale Donald Walsch

Originally posted by mrperplexed
"Its just humans riddle him with so many human traits and flaws that he becomes un-divine."

Exactly again.
We anthropomorphize God and believe that 'He' is created in our image...instead of the other way around.

I can't explain to you EXACTLY what God means to me...it is something as intangible as a cloud and yet as sturdy as the very Earth itself. One day I may compile a collection of thoughts, reflections and personal experiences about my journey with/towards God...we'll see.

But, I do think that this song sums it up fairly well.
It is called 'The King Beetle of a Coconut Estate' by mewithoutYou
One of the verses is:

"He fills up the ponds as He empties the clouds
Holds without hands and He speaks without sounds
He provides us with the cow's waste and coconuts to eat
Giving one that nice salt taste, and the other its sweet

Sends the black carriage the day death shows its face
Thinning our numbers with kindness and grace
And just as a flower and its fragrance are one
So must each of you and your Father become"

Essentially, the idea of the song is that the only way to 'know' what God is, is to be 'utterly changed into Fire.' That is: to become at One with God.

At the moment, you (and us all, I suppose) are playing the role of the 'professor beetle' in the song. Trying to examine and logically analyze what God is.

I've included the full song (with lyrics) below, or HEREare just the lyrics if you're interested.

Originally posted by mrperplexed
He will have no emotion or care that I do not believe in him.

He will have no emotion or care that you do believe in him.

Or am I wrong? (If so, why?)

Whos to define what "perfect" is?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by kingofmd

 

But he only shows his love to those that believe the story, right? What of those who can't make themselves believe? Does God want people to pretend to believe?

Personally, I think that people have misunderstood what Jesus meant when he said 'believe in Me.'
I think he meant believe in his teachings.
I don't think he meant that simply 'accepting' the story of the Crucifixion and Resurrection is 'enough:' We actually have to LIVE His teachings. Believe in His teachings.
His teachings are that of love, compassion, empathy, kindness, respect, and gratitude for All, that is, both God, Yourself, The Earth and your Neighbor.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

John 13-34

Jesus spoke this right after kneeling down at The Last Supper and washing the feet of his disciples. The Teacher showed his students love. God Himself knelt to us and washed our feet clean, and then ordered us to do the same for others.
Certainly God wouldn't then turn around and Damn someone to Hell simply for not being able to accept a theory presented by a 'Church' (run by Humans) that has repeatedly proven itself corrupt and misguided, yes? At least, I hope not!

I understand where you're coming from too. I had the exact same questions/doubts. I mean, why would my 'Christian' neighbor who has never been nice to me in his life get to go to Heaven, while the Dali Lama goes to hell simply for not being Christian?
I don't think so.

The book 'Conversations with God' by Neal Donald-Walsch really cleared some things up for me. I recommend reading it if you're interested.

If "God" is perfect, and we are made in his image, then why are we imperfect? And why are we not good enough for him as we are?

If you sincerely want to know God then you have to go to him on His terms. The original sin was pride, which is why we must humble ourselves to approach God. It almost seems as though you're daring God to give you a sign of his existence. Well, He won't do that. God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. He isn't going to give you a physical sign. Sincerely ask God to reveal himself to you and he will.

In reply to a post above- God did not create man to "worship" Him. He created man to glorify Himself. There is a difference.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
If "God" is perfect, and we are made in his image, then why are we imperfect? And why are we not good enough for him as we are?

Being made in His image does not mean we are carbon-copies of God. Also, we were created with free will. God only wants those to come to him who sincerely want to. That's why he didn't make us like robots. God created mankind perfect and set two paths before him. The choice was ours. The consequences are ours. God gave humans a way back to perfection, but He isn't going to force anyone into it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
If "God" is perfect, and we are made in his image, then why are we imperfect? And why are we not good enough for him as we are?

IMO - It's all about perception and perspective.
Has God ever told you that you are not perfect?

We see our own lives through a narrow microscope.
Say you lose your keys one morning before work.
You look for twenty minutes before you find them.
Now you're late for an important meeting.
Then you accidentally run over someones foot in the parking lot and break their ankle.
On the way into your office you spill your whole cup of coffee.
Sounds like a pretty horrible 'imperfect' day, yeah?

What you don't see happening in the grand scheme of things is:
You would have been hit by an 18-wheeler on the way to work if you had left on time.
The person you were meeting is grateful that you were late (it gave them a chance to go to the restroom and relieve themselves of some of that Thai food they ate last night.)
The person who broke their ankle is not happy...but they are happy that when they went to the hospital the doctor accidentally detected the early signs of cancer while doing their checkup, which is much better than catching it late...
The coffee you spilled? Well, you don't know it yet, but coffee is one of the triggers of your migraines, and you don't have time for a migraine today.

Sure, this is all theoretical and hyperbolic... but you never know. Even the smallest stone makes huge ripples. Every 'imperfect' moment adds up to create the world we live in.

And the best part?

"Everything is perfect in the Universe: even your desire to improve it."
-Wayne Dyer

Cheers!

reply to post by chrome413

Being made in His image does not mean we are carbon-copies of God. Also, we were created with free will. God only wants those to come to him who sincerely want to.

His will is the only will that is free. Every opportunity we receive to exercise our free will, is an opportunity his free will allowed to happen. But if he were to exercise his free will to engineer your entire life in such a manner that every decision you ever make was a decision that he manipulated into happening, would you ever know? Or will you just take it for granted?

Which is why I want the ability to exercise my free will. The only way I will ever know that my life is my own, is by doing everything my way. If my decisions are his decisions, then he is breaking his own rules and I have won anyway. All I want is the ability to choose my destiny with impunity. Whatever natural consequences are incurred, I will accept. But if he doesn't like my choices, then too bad.

My destiny is my own. If he has a good reason to reject my free will, then let him make it known to me. Until he does, stay out of my way.

That's why he didn't make us like robots. God created mankind perfect and set two paths before him. The choice was ours. The consequences are ours. God gave humans a way back to perfection, but He isn't going to force anyone into it.

Really? Then what do you call damnation? I would say the threat of eternal torment in hellfire is pretty coercive.