Will our soldiers defend a tyrannical government?

reply to post by ajay59


I wish I could agree with you, but the "Great Sandy Hook Scare and AWB Hysteria of '13" shows quite a different analysis of our collective psyches.

Those on this site are the minority . . . not the norm. Beyond that . . . the rules are much different when dealing with group think than they are when gauging the individual's awareness.

The mechanisms that govern the human psyche have not changed at all . . . regardless of "awareness". Ring the bell and they still come for dinner. Humans are easily led and manipulated if you know the triggers . . . you see it at work everyday (media/advertising/gov rhetoric).

We'll have to agree to disagree with this one . . . We both are hoping for the same thing . . . But, only one of us has faith.

Originally posted by MrSpad
For a tyrannical government to take power in the US the military is the only force that could put them their to begin with.

Um . . . no. The miltary is a nothing more than the enforcement arm of the gov. They will follow the directives of those in authority. Basic human psych. Will some dissent? Sure . . . and they will be made swift examples to those that don't immediately. This will end dissent . . . just like Communist Russia, NAZI Germany, Turkey/Albanians, Rwanda, Serb/Croatia, Iraq . . . etc, etc.

Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy
reply to post by ItsAConspiracy

 

That's the only kind of soldier that any government wants.

What a bozo that kid is!

He doesn't even know what he swore an oath to...and with all due respect, he's a boot member of the National Guard and not a professional soldier.

I don't think most military members would do the bidding for TPTB. I agree with TDawgRex - there would most definitely be dissension within the ranks if this type of order was ever given. Besides, there are FAR MORE military veterans amongst us who know the score than there are active military who don't.

This is a no brainer all you have to do is is study the mentality of people. Remember that college that got shot up over Vietnam protests?

reply to post by The Vagabond

What would I expect to happen in that kind of an America? I think NORTHCOM would assist police to enthusiastically crush rioters, spy on dissidents, and bust gangs (from their perspective... to the people it would look more like randomly killing the poor so they can't get organized enough to achieve any kind of power).

You paint a pretty grim picture, friend.

What you described would be a long, painful road and unfortunately I can see things going down that way. I think the OP was referring to a more immediate usurpation of power though…like a gun grab by force next month. In that instance, I see a lot of descent. The long path you described seems more realistic. The long, drawn out path provides time for troops to become sufficiently inured to the idea of killing Americans.

Originally posted by MrSpad
For a tyrannical government to take power in the US the military is the only force that could put them their to begin with.

Actually, the citizens are the only ones able to allow a tyrannical government to take power. Hitler had the backing of the German citizens, Stalin had the backing of the Russian citizens, Castro had the backing of the Cuban citizens...Wow, it's like a lot of revolutions begun by the citizens ended in a tyrannical government.

reply to post by solomons path


Disagreement is a good thing while coupled with discussion. New ideas as well as idealism is born from differing views.
However, this statement...

The mechanisms that govern the human psyche have not changed at all

...While true, is weakened by the fact it no longer has the effect it once had in light of the changes of the recent increase in awareness. Another point I must disagree with is...

This will end dissent . . . just like Communist Russia, NAZI Germany, Turkey/Albanians, Rwanda, Serb/Croatia, Iraq . . . etc, etc.

...the difference which is obvious to me, WE are not them. Americans have been bathed in an entirely different idealism and way of thinking that for many decades brought others here to have not only a better life, but a better way of embracing life.

they can, will and do everyday! We have seen the erosion of personal liberty and even more swiftly for the last two decades, enforced at the end of the barrels of our military, local police and private security companies that operate in our borders. There are many more out there that will just follow orders or the crowd that does because it is ALWAYS harder to do the right thing. and that is IF they even can see the right things anymore

Will our soldiers defend a tyrannical government?,

Our soldiers will defend whoever pays them and whoever commands them. That is why they are soldiers in the first place; they are conditioned to follow orders and they will.

Originally posted by olaru12

Will our soldiers defend a tyrannical government?,

Our soldiers will defend whoever pays them and whoever commands them. That is why they are soldiers in the first place; they are conditioned to follow orders and they will.

Do you speak from personal experience?

I'm just trying to get an idea why you're so sure of this.

reply to post by seabag


Yes, I do have personal experience.

www.military-sf.com...

Originally posted by ajay59
reply to post by solomons path

 

...While true, is weakened by the fact it no longer has the effect it once had in light of the changes of the recent increase in awareness. Another point I must disagree with is...

This will end dissent . . . just like Communist Russia, NAZI Germany, Turkey/Albanians, Rwanda, Serb/Croatia, Iraq . . . etc, etc.

...the difference which is obvious to me, WE are not them. Americans have been bathed in an entirely different idealism and way of thinking that for many decades brought others here to have not only a better life, but a better way of embracing life.

I agree that more people are aware of the tactics used by those in authority; however I guess we just have a different level of faith in the choices that people will make when faced with option of compliance or dissent. That's a "life on the line" situation and the natural instict is for self-preservation. Throw in those that also have to think of their families (especially children) and most of the time, their mind is made up before the question is even asked.

With regard to nationality . . . I think your exclusion of Americans from basic human behavior/psychology is a very dangerous assumption. As humans, we have a natural predilection to "do as were told". Part of the reason for this is we are a communal species and put faith that those in authority (in the end) will have our best interests at heart. The only thing that "snaps" them from their "coma" is to be faced with harsh examples of authority causing harm. By then however, it is far too late. That is why revolution/uprisings usually happen after tyranny has taken hold.

I'm reminded the stories my great and grandparents told me of times in Central Europe following WWI and continuing through WWII. Every story included the words: "We never thought they could do that to their own people" or "We never thought it could happen in this country". As a species . . . we want to believe our own countrymen are on our side, even when the evidence is there to support otherwise. Think of the quote that talks about "First they came for the communists . . . ". People will go along, as long as the gov isn't going after their perceived group. Again, you can look at the example of America following 9/11. Most knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, however many willingly went along/supported destroying that nation. They were still contentious towards us, Arab, and if the gov says they have WMDs . . . well. We saw the nationalistic ferver. It's the same thing. To this day, there are many that think we should still be "hunting down terrorists" despite the fact that hindsight shows 98% of it was manufactured rhetoric.

I will openly admit . . . I prefer your scenario to mine. But, the very fact that so many think "it cannot happen here" or "when it comes down to it, the military will back the people" tells me we are no different than those that came before us. If my great-grandma hadn't shown me the relics of her time spent in Auschwitz or witnessed this nation after 9/11 or heard the devisive rhetoric after Sandy Hook . . . I probably wouldn't have the strong stance I have today. I have no doubt that I would share your optimism in my fellow Americans.

I guess the only thing we can do is educate as many as possible, so those atrocities of the past never happen again . . . and hope those conditons never presents itself, in the first place.

Originally posted by olaru12
reply to post by seabag

 

Yes, I do have personal experience.

www.military-sf.com...

Is your experience the fact that you read that article?

Or did you write it? Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, is that you?

I'm talking about experience as in - you have military service.

I spent 8 years active duty, met a ton of people and still talk to a few, and I don't know anyone who would follow orders to fire upon US citizen on US soil.

Please elaborate.

Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by olaru12
reply to post by seabag

 

Yes, I do have personal experience.

www.military-sf.com...

Is your experience the fact that you read that article?

Or did you write it? Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, is that you?

I'm talking about experience as in - you have military service.

I spent 8 years active duty, met a ton of people and still talk to a few, and I don't know anyone who would follow orders to fire upon US citizen on US soil.

Please elaborate.

edit on 25-2-2013 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Who would readily admit they are a monster? Who would admit they would carry out the things done to the prisoners at Abu Ghraib? Who would admit they would shoot every single villager they encountered, including children, in Vietnam?

No one would . . . that's why you cannot rely on someone saying they "will not" until they are on the firing line and asked to. Those that command the military/gov know this as well . . . as does any psychologist.

The better question to ask is . . . would you assist in squashing/policing a demonstration? Would you assist the government if there was insurrection or secession? If there answer is yes. They would fire on Americans.

Those dissenters aren't going to try to "reason" with the military sent to quell the rebellion. Those soldiers are there to shut you down . . . they are the enemy. The first shot fired by "dissenters", even if it is a rock thrown, will draw fire.

There would be no "civil wars" if your thought on the military was correct.

Our soldiers will not have to worry about it. If push comes to shove look for those light blue berets to be marching down your street instead

reply to post by solomons path

Who would readily admit they are a monster? Who would admit they would carry out the things done to the prisoners at Abu Ghraib? Who would admit they would shoot every single villager they encountered, including children, in Vietnam?

Some would…there are some that relish the power they wield.

No one would . . . that's why you cannot rely on someone saying they "will not" until they are on the firing line and asked to. Those that command the military/gov know this as well . . . as does any psychologist.

Blah Blah….I’m talking about personal relationships I’ve had with people who you think are lunatics. I’m here to tell you, we’re not, they’re not, and anybody who says otherwise is not ‘in-the-know’.

The better question to ask is . . . would you assist in squashing/policing a demonstration? Would you assist the government if there was insurrection or secession? If there answer is yes. They would fire on Americans.

The OP specifically mentioned the 2nd amendment and the current struggle between the people and TPTB. I’m staying on topic and telling you about personal experience rather than making generalizations about a group of people I know nothing about in hypothetical situations outside the scope of the OP’s scenario.

Those dissenters aren't going to try to "reason" with the military sent to quell the rebellion. Those soldiers are there to shut you down . . . they are the enemy. The first shot fired by "dissenters", even if it is a rock thrown, will draw fire.

When has this happened in recent history?

Originally posted by jibeho
Our soldiers will not have to worry about it. If push comes to shove look for those light blue berets to be marching down your street instead

I'm looking.....haven't seen any yet.

I know there will be a welcoming party!



We will remain a sovereign nation until the last Oath Keeper is dead or has abandoned his/her post.

I say that our warriors will not fire on their fellow countrymen because of the awakening. Let me elaborate. I believe that the last big mind screw in terms of molding and reshaping emotion into aggression occurred on 9/11. The last false flag fell straight on it's face, IMHO. That being Sandy Hook as most representative of the multi-pronged false flag. I do not believe that any of these so called lone shooter incidents had quite the effect that their designers expected. As the saying goes, "fool me once......

reply to post by seabag


Assumptions galore . . . huh?

1. Where did I use the word lunatic? You need to seperate yourself from the "I'm a proud devildog" mentality. I'm talking about human psychology. I come from a military family and have family members currently serving for two different countries. Humans are humans and all humans behave through the same mechanisms regardless of nationality or profession.

2. Read my posts throughout the this thread . . . they are all on topic and directly related to the question posed in the OP. Take the time to watch the documentary I posted on the first page and then argue why somehow psychological manipulation doesn't work on American soldiers.

3. Hypothetical? . . . Recent? How recent . . . ? I've given several examples, mulitple times. You want more recent than Sandy Hook? Iraq/Afganistan? Rwanda? Croatia/Serbia? Vietnam? . . . It doesn't matter. The way the brain works and the triggers to manipulate haven't changed in over 2000 yrs according to history's examples.

You are quite free to disagree and defend your service men and women . . . individual and as a whole they deserve it. But, I think you need to actually read my posts and if you can't comprehend that everybody's brain works the same because we are all human or have the ability to distinguish between group think and individual dilemas . . . There no need for either one of us to address each other. And BTW - I think including personal experience about my family being sent to concentration camps in Poland (Auschwitz) and Germany (Mauthausen) is speaking from experience. Want more? My father was spit, hit with bottles, and called all sorts of names when he returned from Vietnam . . . how were you treated when you returned home from service?

Good day!

reply to post by ajay59


As I said . . . I much prefer your scenario. Only one way to find out though . . . and I hope we never get to that point personally . . . as I am sure you don't either.

With that said . . . I'm bowing out of this thread. Apparently, discussing the psychological dilema presented in the OP is only to be discussed if you are "gung ho - go USA".

I appreciate your insight, though!