The Problem with Hell (and Heaven): Its Existence.

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posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 10:03 PM
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Most of what is said in the Bible about heaven was said by Jesus, either in the Gospels, or in the Revelation. A lot of what He said was introduced by the formula 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." Unlike an ear-tickling preacher, who might dwell on streets of gold and all that, Jesus would tell a story about the principles the Kingdom operated under. The Revelation gives us some physical description, but I'm sure what we get only describes a little bit of said Kingdom. If we follow this evidence, we see that the cartoon vision of Heaven is bunk. Heaven is far more complex and interesting.

Most of you know by now that I consider Hell to be a "404," so I'll leave it at that.




posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by natloz
 


What you have pointed out is a normal occurrence . I read where a doctor declared that the conscious ( soul) was independent of the brain after much research into the Out of Body experiences .
Your example proves that after death , the first death your soul does not die . That would mean that God will judge you and your soul could end up in Hell. Your soul would be without flesh , without any senses and you would be able to remember your sins over and over , in shame and regret in solitary confinement , with out interruption . Now that would be Hell .



posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by inwardspiral
 


No the Middle East is not the only place God works . But you can not by consensus take over Gods will . It is not up to a vote . God does not move from his position on right and wrong or what is an abomination to him . You are the creation not the creator .



posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 10:16 PM
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JesuitGarlic sez:
Biblical Christianity holds that hell, i.e the Lake of Fire, where those not found in the Book of Life are going to be consumed away to ashes, doesn't actually exist until after Jesus' second coming and then after the 1000 years the redeemed of the first resurrection spend in heaven.


Laz replies:
Good post, JG, very informative! You must, however, rightly divide the Word of God. "Hell" carries certain strong connotations peculiar to the Eternal Torment crowd. Therefore you should not equate Hell with the Lake of Fire. As an SDA believer, you are by definition an advocate of Eternal Destruction ("consumed away to ashes"), and the Lake of Fire should be your term, not Hell. Just my humble opinion, as an ex-Adventist. As a believer in Universal Conciliation, I don't subscribe to the concept of Hell at all, and see the Lake of Fire as a place of temporal punishment and refinement, not eternal destruction.



edit on 25-2-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah



posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by inwardspiral
 


No the Middle East is not the only place God works . But you can not by consensus take over Gods will . It is not up to a vote . God does not move from his position on right and wrong or what is an abomination to him . You are the creation not the creator .
Umm gods will is our will because it is through the freedom of our will that we express his will. He would have not made us this way if that were not true. You can bring up that Lucifer is here, and that we are born of sin and whatnot, but it seems to me that it is in gods will that we are this way because free will has taught man so much about himself and evolved him in so many ways. We have grown as a species because of it whether you want to see it or not. Look at us now and look at us 500 years ago. If we continued like we were in the middle ages where men just lived to devote themselves to god, we would go nowhere. But once men awoke and began using their free will again, they evolved and became this. A world connected like never before. And all the other forces of the universe, and I'm talking about beyond this pale blue dot in the galaxy, are confined only to the will of god that you've stated? No. There is destruction and creation everywhere as there is in this planet. There is "evil" and "good" everywhere and it is a natural state in which god has imposed on nature.
edit on 25-2-2013 by inwardspiral because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2013 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by inwardspiral
 


Party on dude . You have evidently written your own bible .



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by HomoSapiensSapiens
What's more, unfortunately, the Bible proves nothing.

The prophecies in the bible are irrefutable proof that the Bible is in FACT divinely inspired.

The laws of probability have proved that to be true.


The Bible is proven as the word of God by the fulfillment of Bible prophesies. It is mathematically impossible for all of these prophesies to have just happened by chance. This proves that the people that wrote the Bible were inspired by God, for only God could accurately foretell the future, in detail 100% of the time, and at the same time encourage mankind to obey Him.

Source


The chances of just 48 out of the 456 prophecies being fulfilled in one person are 1 in 10 to the 157 power.

"All this illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on the probability theory, Emile Borel states that once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur." LINK


"...once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur....Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 1050 have a zero probability of ever happening.... This is Borel's law in action which was derived by mathematician Emil Borel....

Here is one last illustration of the immensity of the number 10 to the 157th power and why the science of probability shows we are dealing with the miraculous… Imagine one ant traveling at the speed of only one inch every 15 billion years. If he could only carry one atom at a time, how many atoms could he move in 10 to the 157th power of years?

He would, even at that incredibly slow speed, be able to move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion universes the size for our universe, a distance of 30 billion light years! Again, by the laws of probability, all of this means that it is simply impossible for 48 prophecies to be fulfilled by chance. LINK



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 12:36 AM
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reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
 

Here are issues I see.

Hell:
Eternal punishment is infinitely evil and therefore infinitely irreconcilable with an eternal omni-benevolent God.

Heaven:
Eternity is a long time. If it's a place we go to that mirrors this World, albeit ideally, and carries into it our personalities and minds as they were, infinity becomes a nightmare. It would have to be a state that wholly transcends our human experience. We would have to become something that could handle eternity. We would have to become something else entirely. Dare I say become Godly.
edit on 26-2-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 01:07 AM
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This topic seems to come up about once a month here on ATS. Some well-meaning atheist feels a duty to break the shackles of ignorance off of his fellow man, so he points out how illogical religion or some aspect of it is.

How often does it work, this reverse evangelism? And what are you leading people towards? How much better are the lives of people who abandon faith? Can you show us the great humanistic advancements being made by the godless? Surely atheists must be the happiest, most benevolent people on the planet. Where are the smiling spokespeople that will demonstrate the fuller life that they enjoy now that they have jettisoned the deadweight of those stuffy rules and unprovable supersitions?

If you want to market atheism, you need to do better than "Hell is illogical."



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by Snsoc
This topic seems to come up about once a month here on ATS. Some well-meaning atheist feels a duty to break the shackles of ignorance off of his fellow man, so he points out how illogical religion or some aspect of it is.

How often does it work, this reverse evangelism? And what are you leading people towards? How much better are the lives of people who abandon faith? Can you show us the great humanistic advancements being made by the godless? Surely atheists must be the happiest, most benevolent people on the planet. Where are the smiling spokespeople that will demonstrate the fuller life that they enjoy now that they have jettisoned the deadweight of those stuffy rules and unprovable supersitions?

If you want to market atheism, you need to do better than "Hell is illogical."



Here! Me! *jumps up and down, waving hands*
Yes, I am really happy. I can live without your "holy" books all year, no doubt. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do any drugs, am healthy, have a home, a steady job, a family with lots of love in it and am generally living a fulfilled live.
Could get of this damn cough, but that is it with the weather.

My children are learning about some general part of christianity, so that they could talk about it, but I will never induce fear or hate using the bible or any other stupid instrument of mass-orchestration!

You say "fear god and fear the hell!", I say "forget about the hell - if you want to live a life of "sins", you should be aware of the consequences which will face you this side of the death!".

And as a PS: HOW THE HELL ARE SO MANY PRIESTS PAEDOPHIL! Shouldn't those people KNOW the consequences taught to them by their very own jobs' manual?! I don't talk about homosexuality, no problem there, but paedophilia is WAY beyond *bad*!



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 01:32 AM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


Blah. Those so-called prophecies are vague or predictable and also due to interpretation. I believed you are possessed by controlling entities that are tricking you to see the bible as truth.

As for the original post. Hell does exist. It is the lower realm. It is Earth (BELOW heaven). It is Darkness, Chaos, It is the Root Chakra.

Heaven is the higher realm. It is the paradise (with mind - afterlife). It is Light, and CONTROL (Order) , the Crown Chakra (MIND - Consciousness).



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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All those religions that say that Hell does exist, why do they say it? To prevent people from doing bad because if they don't this will be their punishment. Now Imagine that all the Muslims and Christians didn't believe that Hell existed and that everyone would be forgotten after death and they'd end up in no-where. Where would that lead humanity? The morale standards that people stand for would completely vanish, we'd live in a world that already would be considered hell. It's hard for you to believe in Hell and Paradise because you really haven't lived long enough to realise that there are evil people and good people. There would be no point in coming to this world if there wasn't a Hell and Paradise, God may as well made everyone born into Paradise if this was the case. So he put everyone on trial to see if they really want Paradise or not. He has sent messengers and revelations, now if you're failing to see who they were and what the revelation is then it's your duty to find it out.

I would say that Islam is the right way to live and that Muhammad was the last messenger, but you wouldn't believe me even though there are vast amounts of evidence to straighten the fact that Islam is the true religion of Allah (God). There is even scientific evidence if that's what you want your evidence to be based upon. Is not the heavens and the earth enough evidence of an Almighty? Take the first rule of physics for example, scientists say that something can never occur from nothing. Then how come big-bang came from nothing? The only logical thought is that it must of been something extremely intelligent behind it.

I'm muslim and I can't really understand the situation you're in. I was born a muslim but that doesn't mean that I follow blindly, No as matter of fact I've been studying Islam since the day I was given my own voice and I've only been more convinced that Islam is the right path. There is no contradiction in Islam even though there are millions of words that could of contradicted each other at any time. But the speech of Allah (God) does never contradict itself because it's perfect. And if you read about the Quran you'd get to know that the scripture doesn't contain a single contradiction and that the last prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the most well documented man in history. You can't deny his existence nor his revelation because there is scientific existence that he did exist and he did perform miracles with the will of Allah (God). Islam has a very strong chain of narations from one person to another and that's what kept the texts unchanged since then.

The Quran hasn't been changed with a single word since it was revealed and God promised it's protection:



"We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption.)" (15:9)


I'm not telling you to belief blindly, I'm telling you that there is a truth, I've discovered it myself and I'm trying to make you understand it. It wont happen unless you tell yourself that you want to find it.



"It is such that We clarify the revelations to a people who think." (The Holly Qur’an 10:24)


The Quran clearly tells you that it's for people who think and those who seek to find the truth by thinking and using your intelligent, It's not encouraging you blindly belief.



"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)


The more you read about Islam the more you realise that it's impossible for this to be a religion based upon human thoughts and beyond it's comprehention. I wish I could just show you what my heart contained to really show you that my belief is so strong that even death wouldn't separate me from it. But many other religions have been tampered with and destroyed by humans and this is making it more difficult for muslims to really show who they are.



" Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)


You have heard that Islam was spread by the sword which is completely wrong, Christianity was spread with the sword. And by saying that it was spread by the word means that people were forced to belief or die by the sword. This was never the case in Islam because Allah says that there is no compulsion in religion, you may not force someone else to belief. As truth stands out clear from Error, it only needs some effort to discover what it is.

I Pray to Allah to guide you to the Straight Path and that he may give me more knowledge to convince you and others of it. My intention is only what benefits myself and others in this world and the next.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:17 AM
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reply to post by ManFromEurope
 



Good for you. Really. Stick with it if it works for you.



You say "fear god and fear the hell!", I say "forget about the hell - if you want to live a life of "sins", you should be aware of the consequences which will face you this side of the death!".


I didn't actually say that. And yes, wrongdoing often does have consequences in this life.


And as a PS: HOW THE HELL ARE SO MANY PRIESTS PAEDOPHIL! Shouldn't those people KNOW the consequences taught to them by their very own jobs' manual?! I don't talk about homosexuality, no problem there, but paedophilia is WAY beyond *bad*!


Well, it's obvious that those priests don't actually believe the Book or Church Tradition. The Catholic church was clearly infiltrated by pedos.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by HomoSapiensSapiens
I understand that many religions, most especially Christianity, state that hell exists and is for those who do not believe, who are evil, and who (particularly and especially in Christianity) do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour etc.

Now, I was just watching an interesting debating programme on the BBC ("The Big Questions") and a main topic for discussion was on whether hell existed. And I have to say that I was absolutely astounded and shocked at what believers (particularly Christians) were saying. For example, one young lad was saying that hell exists because Jesus rose from the dead and has seen more of the afterlife than we have. -What?? There are so many problems with those statements.

In any case, there are problems with hell in regards to its existence (not the morality of it - so that is not up for discussion). What is up for discussion, however, is whether it exists. However, I have since realised that believers, especially Christians, are already on the losing side when arguing for its existence. In other words, there is actually no proof whatsoever that such a "place" actually exists.

Additionally, I was particularly astounded by the arguments used to "prove" its existence - for example, one lady on the aforementioned show asserted that the presence of "evil" was enough for us to believe that hell exists and she mentioned Hitler and Mao and so on and so forth. However, this is clearly not evidence or a sufficient argument whatsoever.

What's more is that any Dick or Harry could simply say that "Neverland" exists and say random things to try to back up as evidence of its existence - however he would not have actually presented any credible evidence.

In short, can Christians and others not see that they are already by default fighting on a losing side when arguing for the existence of hell, especially in this day and age where humans have much more access to information and are arguably much brighter than the people of yester-centuries.

What evidence can be provided for hell or heaven? Unfortunately, it would seem that there is none at all - unless of course, anybody would beg to differ?

This should prove to be an interesting discussion...
edit on 2/25/2013 by HomoSapiensSapiens because: (no reason given)
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edit on 2/25/2013 by HomoSapiensSapiens because: (no reason given)


jesus is a mushroom - google it.
heaven/hell correspond exactly to experiences recounted under
the influence of certain type mushrooms, and indeed if you have an eye,
you will see mushrooms referenced everywhere within religious writings/artworks.
that's their big secret.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Snsoc
reply to post by ManFromEurope
 



Good for you. Really. Stick with it if it works for you.



You say "fear god and fear the hell!", I say "forget about the hell - if you want to live a life of "sins", you should be aware of the consequences which will face you this side of the death!".


I didn't actually say that. And yes, wrongdoing often does have consequences in this life.

Okay, I (and I thought that to be obvious) didn't mean you in person, but everyone who would use the concept of a "hell" to bring people on track. Not you, Snsoc.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 05:28 AM
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So you believe the oort cloud exists, and no one has ever seen it?

Anyhow, I am having trouble forming a response to the thread. I'm not quite sure what your motivation is. If heaven and hell aren't real, who cares? Why try to convince someone otherwise? I on the other hand, care about others and would like to warn them of the reality that hell is real. Part of the problem seems to be that you are holding to an erroneous belief on what hell is, and why it exists. I suggest searching for information on hell from and orthodox Christian site, such as gotquestions.org. I'm sure your conscience is telling you it is real, listen to it.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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There are so many topics brought up by the original post that one would need to spend a lot of time to participate in all of them. Since the sun is getting higher, and the beach is waiting, I will limit my input--however insignificant it is thought to be.
First of all----ALL religious teachings are told or recorded by mortals---people that were born, live(d), and die(d)....
Are/were any of them(mortals) perfect?, of course not. Are/were some 'better' than others? Of course.
Now to my second bit of ?---Let us assume that a person having lived a life following the teachings of jesus believes that this is the only true path in life leading to 'whatever is waiting for him/her after the body dies'. But what if that same person was never exposed to jesus(and his teachings)(because he was taken from his situation by a group of non-believers living on a totally isolated island----I am really reaching here. Now what? Does this abduction negate jesus and all he stands for? So now, does this person come to the end of his life like the monkeys, snakes, etc... around him?( simply meaning that it is just a life form that has stopped living) If so, then we truly are no different than the plants we eat or the cow we BBQ(some of us). I would like to think that we are a bit different. Or am I being arrogant to think so?
To my third and last little bit-----suppose I do agree that we simply evolved to our present state as humans, and are nothing special but are simply the product of evolution. I am still puzzled at many things that makes us human---like being aware of our existence, knowing the difference between right and wrong, understanding that choices have consequences(that are not short term), and on and on.........



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by natloz
 


Before any law , writting , or Jesus man was held accountable to God by his righteousness towards God.Man has known right from wrong at from the Garden Of Eden . The Forbiden Fruit / Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is where man knew what God wanted or not (any where on earth) and that man chose to honor God or the Serpent .



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 
Simon. Excuse me if I'm coming off as "self righteous" or all knowing. I'm not trying to put you down nor am I trying to seem smarter than you because I could very well be the stupidest man in the world. But I accept that. I accept knowledge for what it is as an expansion of all you know and the eyes of perception. Many people that claim to follow the "correct above all" religion only see their religion and limit their eyes to see anything else or ever believe in anything else.

I personally don't think I was born here to be challenged into believing in god because I could have very well never been introduced to god and lived the rest of my life with that gut feeling that something out there exists greater than I. And I refuse to believe that I would be condemned for eternity for not bowing to my knees to god everyday. I believe that god spoke to the people that wrote the bible. I believe that got spoke to people who wrote many other bibles and other religious texts. But at the end of the day, god shows you "what is" through what is perceivable/understandable to you. People, a couple thousand years ago were much more primitive and different. They were used to praising gods, making sacrifices and condemning/exiling others for not fitting in with the tribe. When god spoke to these men, these ideas/perceptions that people already had, became combined with the word of god. This goes for every religion such as Islam where men can marry many wives. That was already going on in these regions and this just got combined with the religion.



posted on Feb, 26 2013 @ 12:52 PM
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And I still haven't had this one question answered... I am not trying to make an argument but more of an agreement. Yet the second something I say is against what you have believed in for your whole life, you are so quick to reject it and walk away. Well, that is part of your religion anyways. I know because I was a catholic for many years myself. And as a catholic I was told to love and accept everyone for who they are because Jesus said to do so and at the end of the day, I will be saved. And I will repeat the question nobody answered.... Would god be happier if people accepted and loved one another for who they were, be it satanist or homosexual, without a religious reason to do so rather than the only there being is through a religious reason? As I said before, such a love feels very fake and not under ones true willpower and ask anyone on the train that hears the Evangelists telling everyone I love you, Jesus Christs loves you, if this love feels real. True love comes from ones own willpower and whatever evil there is that you speak of could be overturned through the power of love. No kidding.





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