reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
God does exist because everything is happening as it says it is, and how can we learn if we block out what other people say to you and believe what
suits your needs. Scientist can't disprove the existence of God and history tells Yeshau walked among us, if everything is taken away from what you
believe because humans are not a trustful species than your left with empty cup. You limit yourself to the material world and that's why your afraid
of this place and things.
The Problem with Hell (and Heaven): Its Existence., page 2
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 03:46 PM by LuckyLucian
reply to post by Siberbat
It has been well established in recent studies that eyewitness testimony is terribly unreliable. I would also argue that the eyewitness accounts that have been enough to condemn a man to death have more to do with jurors than the veracity of the eyewitness accounts.
Link 1.
Link 2.
Link 3.
Link 4.
In science when discussing wormholes or aspects of relativity you can point to hypotheses backed by equations that don't break known laws of physics. Laws and theories backed by thousands of experiments. You use the word "possible" and science does indeed show them to be possible. The only issue here is having the necessary technology to properly test these theories. This is, after all, the scientific method. Observation, hypothesis, experiment, conclusion. There have been many experiments into relativity. Here's one. To my knowledge there is no empirical observation data one could use to formulate a hypothesis on the existence of "hell". Does this mean it's impossible? Not exactly. But until there is any shred of evidence it is terribly foolish to believe it does exist. Supposed eyewitness accounts of hell are purely subjective and can potentially be as wildly inaccurate as any memory, if true, and cannot be verified to begin with.
It has been well established in recent studies that eyewitness testimony is terribly unreliable. I would also argue that the eyewitness accounts that have been enough to condemn a man to death have more to do with jurors than the veracity of the eyewitness accounts.
Link 1.
Link 2.
Link 3.
Link 4.
In science when discussing wormholes or aspects of relativity you can point to hypotheses backed by equations that don't break known laws of physics. Laws and theories backed by thousands of experiments. You use the word "possible" and science does indeed show them to be possible. The only issue here is having the necessary technology to properly test these theories. This is, after all, the scientific method. Observation, hypothesis, experiment, conclusion. There have been many experiments into relativity. Here's one. To my knowledge there is no empirical observation data one could use to formulate a hypothesis on the existence of "hell". Does this mean it's impossible? Not exactly. But until there is any shred of evidence it is terribly foolish to believe it does exist. Supposed eyewitness accounts of hell are purely subjective and can potentially be as wildly inaccurate as any memory, if true, and cannot be verified to begin with.
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 03:51 PM by WarriorOfLight96
reply to post by canucks555
That's because they are setting up to deceive many with the alien card, the herds of salvation seekers will be flocking to the fallen angels upon their return. To those like yourself will pat your selves on the back because this will prove that God doesn't exist.
That's because they are setting up to deceive many with the alien card, the herds of salvation seekers will be flocking to the fallen angels upon their return. To those like yourself will pat your selves on the back because this will prove that God doesn't exist.
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 03:58 PM by godlover25
reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
Hell is the absence of all good and everything to do with God, in my belief and opinion,
I believe the Hell most people who go to Hell experience is what atheists believe happens post-death; a blank, empty, void, reminiscent of what you experienced before birth.
I also believe Hell has separate "levels", one of which is a sort of prison, which will be emptied at the end of time when all the wicked, along with the concepts of Death and Hell themselves, are cast into the Lake of Fire and perished for all eternity, after which God will create anew, a new Universe with a new Imperishable Earth,
This is just my opinion though....
Thanks
Edit; also, I don't think God judges people and sends them to Hell so much for beliefs, or lack thereof, so much as He does it for deeds committed....
A Hindu who lives a virtuous life, or a Muslim, or a Pacific Islander who has done much good in life, could be accepted into Paradise, whereas a conceited and selfish Christian could end up in the Void...
God bless
Hell is the absence of all good and everything to do with God, in my belief and opinion,
I believe the Hell most people who go to Hell experience is what atheists believe happens post-death; a blank, empty, void, reminiscent of what you experienced before birth.
I also believe Hell has separate "levels", one of which is a sort of prison, which will be emptied at the end of time when all the wicked, along with the concepts of Death and Hell themselves, are cast into the Lake of Fire and perished for all eternity, after which God will create anew, a new Universe with a new Imperishable Earth,
This is just my opinion though....
Thanks
Edit; also, I don't think God judges people and sends them to Hell so much for beliefs, or lack thereof, so much as He does it for deeds committed....
A Hindu who lives a virtuous life, or a Muslim, or a Pacific Islander who has done much good in life, could be accepted into Paradise, whereas a conceited and selfish Christian could end up in the Void...
God bless
edit on 25-2-2013 by godlover25 because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 04:05 PM by backcase
reply to post by clairvoyantrose
Hell is different than the sufferings of earth, because even sufferings can be pleasant for men, because they make men more like Jesus and they know that. Ever heard of the Beatitudes?
But Hell is on Earth I'll definitely give you that one, but only to an extent.
Hell is different than the sufferings of earth, because even sufferings can be pleasant for men, because they make men more like Jesus and they know that. Ever heard of the Beatitudes?
But Hell is on Earth I'll definitely give you that one, but only to an extent.
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 04:10 PM by LuckyLucian
reply to post by Siberbat
What do we call an occurrence which science can't explain? An opportunity. Phenomena is anything experienced or observed. The term does not convey something unknown or unexplained. Again, you're showing a lack of understanding of how science works. As well as a lack of reading comprehension. It wasn't stated in the post you replied to that NDE's were not real events, but instead:
...which is an accurate description of where we currently are in fields concerning NDE's and consciousness.
You claim science has proven nothing and it's just hypotheses and presuppositions, which is extremely wrong, yet proudly claim the same for your own point of view. This makes no sense whatsoever. The "supernatural" basis for NDE's has, in fact, proven nothing and is nothing more than theories and assumptions rooted in equally unproven religious or spiritual beliefs. The fact that science has not reached a conclusion on a specific subject does not mean the default conclusion must therefore be supernatural.
What do we call an occurrence which science can't explain? An opportunity. Phenomena is anything experienced or observed. The term does not convey something unknown or unexplained. Again, you're showing a lack of understanding of how science works. As well as a lack of reading comprehension. It wasn't stated in the post you replied to that NDE's were not real events, but instead:
There are said to be rational scientific explanations for them and I'm sure that as science progresses, we will be able to readily explain them...
...which is an accurate description of where we currently are in fields concerning NDE's and consciousness.
You claim science has proven nothing and it's just hypotheses and presuppositions, which is extremely wrong, yet proudly claim the same for your own point of view. This makes no sense whatsoever. The "supernatural" basis for NDE's has, in fact, proven nothing and is nothing more than theories and assumptions rooted in equally unproven religious or spiritual beliefs. The fact that science has not reached a conclusion on a specific subject does not mean the default conclusion must therefore be supernatural.
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 04:17 PM by Klassified
reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
Whoa, whoa, slow down there. The first part was just a little humor. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell.
The second part was how many Christians really see this argument. A Christian who has been one for a long time won't try to prove either to you. They'll tell you just what I told you. It's faith. You either believe, or you don't.
Whoa, whoa, slow down there. The first part was just a little humor. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell.
The second part was how many Christians really see this argument. A Christian who has been one for a long time won't try to prove either to you. They'll tell you just what I told you. It's faith. You either believe, or you don't.
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 04:33 PM by backcase
Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
Whoa, whoa, slow down there. The first part was just a little humor. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell.
The second part was how many Christians really see this argument. A Christian who has been one for a long time won't try to prove either to you. They'll tell you just what I told you. It's faith. You either believe, or you don't.
Well actually, I think that those Christians may just get sick of arguing, pass the point of needing concrete evidence of either, or they become lukewarm Christians who believe that they somehow manage to do enough to be saved. Otherwise they would just ignore the argument because they have heard it far too many times, they understand the truth of it, and from experience that these people are just looking for an outlet to voice their own opinion without the intention of even considering anyone else's thought.
know what I'm saying, or am I raving?
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 06:54 PM by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens
Biblical Christianity holds that hell, i.e the Lake of Fire, where those not found in the Book of Life are going to be consumed away to ashes, doesn't actually exist until after Jesus' second coming and then after the 1000 years the redeemed of the first resurrection spend in heaven.
False Christianity teaches that upon death you either go to Heaven or Hell. The Bible teaches though that upon death you remain in the ground waiting, described as a "sleep", waiting for either the first resurrection of the redeemed or the second resurrection of the wicked who will be then consumed by fire until they are ashes.
Your OP is asking proof of something exists when it has not began to exist yet so that is a fairly pointless aim.
Nevertheless, there is some evidence for what the Lake of Fire will be like because the same fire that is said to be used in the Lake of Fire is what was used to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Brimstone...molten sulfur).
Millions of those sulfur balls were found all over the destroyed cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim, Zoar and Admah.
Chemical analysis of those sulfur balls revealed them to be about 98% pure sulfur with the other elements composed of things which would make the sulfur burn hotter (like magnesium).
The purest forms of naturally occurring sulfur comes to at around 40% pure. The sulfur that hit those cities only has 30 times less impurities than anything found on Earth. There is no doubt that what destroyed those cities has supernatural intervention.
further reading on Sodom and Gomorrah discovery 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
-----------------
So how do we prove Heaven exists
I think the only individuals we know by name who are already in Heaven are Enoch and Elijah and they are no help in proving that it exists other than taking what was written down and believed by those who saw it take place at the time to be truth. So how can this help support the existence of Heaven?
We could provide some evidence of Jesus' living existence still now.
100 testimonials of people being saved by Jesus from CE4 experiences. With the CE4 experiences we have people who are in the middle of what to them appears to be an alien abduction/harassment experience. People have been able to stop these experiences happening part way through by calling on the name of Jesus to help them and which is the only things that does help them. Such experiences reveal that the "aliens" are really just the fallen angels in disguise trying to plant in the minds of the world that we could have been seeded by an advanced ET race.
Search Bob Larson on youtube and have a look at all the people being delivered from various forms of demonic possession through the power of the living savior, Jesus.
An alternative way to help support the existence of Heaven would be to do a probability analysis of how reliable are the visions of those prophets of God who have seen Heaven and described it. Here I can think of two examples, John in the book Revelation and Ellen White in Chapter 42 of the Great Controversy or in her book Heaven.
How can we judge the worth of John the Revelator's visions of heaven, perhaps by judging the historical fulfilment of his visions relating to the Beast (of the Sea)/Whore of Babylon
full historical fulfilment of Daniel and Revelation description of the anti-christ. Some of the descriptions there need a little more explaining than provided but...on close inspection of those descriptors, all are fulfilled historically.
What kind of probability can you give for a full fulfilment of all those different descriptions written thousands and thousands of years ago (especially when we read of people who expose Satanism in the Catholic Church, who founded the illuminati, and what ex-illuminati people have to say about the Vatican).
To judge the worth of Ellen White's visions on Heaven we will look at an area she wrote on which has evidence of fulfilment but it not based on a conditional prophecy. We will look at the area of her health reform.
Ellen White wrote a tremendous amount in her life (becoming the most prolific writing in American history before she died) and one area she wrote on and claimed she was receiving her insight from God was on health reform.
Please read some of Development of Ellen White's health principles. With no formal background in health or diet or a school education of any distinguished length, she wrote done at the time a raft of practices that people should follow to ensure best health practise. This was written over 150 years ago when all kinds of ideas of what constituted good dietary and health practices were floating around with no established clear methods. Out of all the various practises that were floating around she just happened to say all the practises that have come out much later in time to be shown to be beneficial to the body and included none that were shown to be harmful later on. What is the probability of this?
What is the probability that the diet she advocated Adventist's to eat (told to her by God) just happens to make Adventist now the longest living non-geocentric specific culture in the entire world?
Longveity Blue Zones
SDA longevity
SDA women in America live 9 years on average longer than their counterparts in America and the men live 11 years longer on average (years generally free of any major disease or health concern).
Adventist are the only group who aren't seeing their longevity deteriorate and the only group that aren't contained to a specific location in the world.
further info on SDA longevity
What does this evidence of historical fulfilment of Biblical prophecy and Adventist health tell us about the likelihood that Heaven is real and is as described by John the Revelator and Ellen White....it tells us that in areas that we can confirm show that what is written down seems to be beyond any human knowledge to write and predict then it is extremely likely to the point of certainty (when combined with the evidence for the existence of other factors) that Heaven is real as is the Judgement at the End of Time where those not in God will be erased from existence.
Therefore....both Heaven and Hell are "real"
Biblical Christianity holds that hell, i.e the Lake of Fire, where those not found in the Book of Life are going to be consumed away to ashes, doesn't actually exist until after Jesus' second coming and then after the 1000 years the redeemed of the first resurrection spend in heaven.
False Christianity teaches that upon death you either go to Heaven or Hell. The Bible teaches though that upon death you remain in the ground waiting, described as a "sleep", waiting for either the first resurrection of the redeemed or the second resurrection of the wicked who will be then consumed by fire until they are ashes.
Your OP is asking proof of something exists when it has not began to exist yet so that is a fairly pointless aim.
Nevertheless, there is some evidence for what the Lake of Fire will be like because the same fire that is said to be used in the Lake of Fire is what was used to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Brimstone...molten sulfur).
Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24. "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly" II Peter 2:6.
Millions of those sulfur balls were found all over the destroyed cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim, Zoar and Admah.
Chemical analysis of those sulfur balls revealed them to be about 98% pure sulfur with the other elements composed of things which would make the sulfur burn hotter (like magnesium).
The purest forms of naturally occurring sulfur comes to at around 40% pure. The sulfur that hit those cities only has 30 times less impurities than anything found on Earth. There is no doubt that what destroyed those cities has supernatural intervention.
further reading on Sodom and Gomorrah discovery 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
-----------------
So how do we prove Heaven exists
I think the only individuals we know by name who are already in Heaven are Enoch and Elijah and they are no help in proving that it exists other than taking what was written down and believed by those who saw it take place at the time to be truth. So how can this help support the existence of Heaven?
We could provide some evidence of Jesus' living existence still now.
100 testimonials of people being saved by Jesus from CE4 experiences. With the CE4 experiences we have people who are in the middle of what to them appears to be an alien abduction/harassment experience. People have been able to stop these experiences happening part way through by calling on the name of Jesus to help them and which is the only things that does help them. Such experiences reveal that the "aliens" are really just the fallen angels in disguise trying to plant in the minds of the world that we could have been seeded by an advanced ET race.
Search Bob Larson on youtube and have a look at all the people being delivered from various forms of demonic possession through the power of the living savior, Jesus.
An alternative way to help support the existence of Heaven would be to do a probability analysis of how reliable are the visions of those prophets of God who have seen Heaven and described it. Here I can think of two examples, John in the book Revelation and Ellen White in Chapter 42 of the Great Controversy or in her book Heaven.
How can we judge the worth of John the Revelator's visions of heaven, perhaps by judging the historical fulfilment of his visions relating to the Beast (of the Sea)/Whore of Babylon
full historical fulfilment of Daniel and Revelation description of the anti-christ. Some of the descriptions there need a little more explaining than provided but...on close inspection of those descriptors, all are fulfilled historically.
What kind of probability can you give for a full fulfilment of all those different descriptions written thousands and thousands of years ago (especially when we read of people who expose Satanism in the Catholic Church, who founded the illuminati, and what ex-illuminati people have to say about the Vatican).
To judge the worth of Ellen White's visions on Heaven we will look at an area she wrote on which has evidence of fulfilment but it not based on a conditional prophecy. We will look at the area of her health reform.
Ellen White wrote a tremendous amount in her life (becoming the most prolific writing in American history before she died) and one area she wrote on and claimed she was receiving her insight from God was on health reform.
Please read some of Development of Ellen White's health principles. With no formal background in health or diet or a school education of any distinguished length, she wrote done at the time a raft of practices that people should follow to ensure best health practise. This was written over 150 years ago when all kinds of ideas of what constituted good dietary and health practices were floating around with no established clear methods. Out of all the various practises that were floating around she just happened to say all the practises that have come out much later in time to be shown to be beneficial to the body and included none that were shown to be harmful later on. What is the probability of this?
What is the probability that the diet she advocated Adventist's to eat (told to her by God) just happens to make Adventist now the longest living non-geocentric specific culture in the entire world?
Longveity Blue Zones
SDA longevity
SDA women in America live 9 years on average longer than their counterparts in America and the men live 11 years longer on average (years generally free of any major disease or health concern).
Adventist are the only group who aren't seeing their longevity deteriorate and the only group that aren't contained to a specific location in the world.
further info on SDA longevity
What does this evidence of historical fulfilment of Biblical prophecy and Adventist health tell us about the likelihood that Heaven is real and is as described by John the Revelator and Ellen White....it tells us that in areas that we can confirm show that what is written down seems to be beyond any human knowledge to write and predict then it is extremely likely to the point of certainty (when combined with the evidence for the existence of other factors) that Heaven is real as is the Judgement at the End of Time where those not in God will be erased from existence.
Therefore....both Heaven and Hell are "real"
edit on 25-2-2013 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)
) ok i don,t believe in no god and to me i
have no idea why anyone else does 
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 09:07 PM by backcase
reply to post by sparky31
do not get offended, it was only some advice.
"i,m sorry as soon as i seen god only basicly lets u see what u want to see i skipped all answers", - sparky
I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. It is not at all that I do not like your post, it is that I like when things are correct and in clear order. Also it makes us less prone to misunderstanding.
I answered you, but you had nothing to say of what I said.
do not get offended, it was only some advice.
"i,m sorry as soon as i seen god only basicly lets u see what u want to see i skipped all answers", - sparky
I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. It is not at all that I do not like your post, it is that I like when things are correct and in clear order. Also it makes us less prone to misunderstanding.
I answered you, but you had nothing to say of what I said.
edit on 092828p://111 by backcase because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 09:44 PM by SimonPeter
reply to post by inwardspiral
Before the Law or Jesus came to earth people were saved by their righteousness towards God ! Enoch , Elijah , Abraham , Able , Adam . These never heard of the Law or Jesus . Were they lost? Does a newborn calf need to be schooled to know how to suckle off its mother ? No ! Man also knows what is right in the site of God and you can call it instinct if you wish . You have had all of the chances to know Jesus and from what I hear in your post you haven't yet grasped your place in the matter .
No we aren't God nor even a reasonable facsimile .
Before the Law or Jesus came to earth people were saved by their righteousness towards God ! Enoch , Elijah , Abraham , Able , Adam . These never heard of the Law or Jesus . Were they lost? Does a newborn calf need to be schooled to know how to suckle off its mother ? No ! Man also knows what is right in the site of God and you can call it instinct if you wish . You have had all of the chances to know Jesus and from what I hear in your post you haven't yet grasped your place in the matter .
No we aren't God nor even a reasonable facsimile .
reply posted on 25-2-2013 @ 10:02 PM by inwardspiral
Originally posted by SimonPeterOh really? God is going to limit himself to one region of the world instead of speaking to the whole world? So god never spoke to peoples of north america or Australia? Man does by instinct have a belief in something greater than he is and THERE is something greater than he is. But this something greater than him is in himself. If we are made in the image of god (according to the bible), then how are we not gods ourselves? Think of this, would the world be a better place if everyone just loved each other no matter who they were, satanist or homosexual, or if the only love there could be is through Jesus Christ? That is ignorant in my eyes and so limiting to the human potential. Love can break through the chains of evil and bring out the humanity in people. But love to you is singular to the likes of your religion. Not everyone is going to believe in Jesus or jehova. It is impossible. So accept and evolve by accepting one another instead of condemning one another for not believing in what you believe. You merely touched upon anything I said. Back up your rebuttal with self proclaimed logic and that not being quotes from the bible. Thank you.
reply to post by inwardspiral
Before the Law or Jesus came to earth people were saved by their righteousness towards God ! Enoch , Elijah , Abraham , Able , Adam . These never heard of the Law or Jesus . Were they lost? Does a newborn calf need to be schooled to know how to suckle off its mother ? No ! Man also knows what is right in the site of God and you can call it instinct if you wish . You have had all of the chances to know Jesus and from what I hear in your post you haven't yet grasped your place in the matter .
No we aren't God nor even a reasonable facsimile .
Is it possible for an atheist parent to not force the same belief on their children?
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