The Problem with Hell (and Heaven): Its Existence.

I understand that many religions, most especially Christianity, state that hell exists and is for those who do not believe, who are evil, and who (particularly and especially in Christianity) do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour etc.

Now, I was just watching an interesting debating programme on the BBC ("The Big Questions") and a main topic for discussion was on whether hell existed. And I have to say that I was absolutely astounded and shocked at what believers (particularly Christians) were saying. For example, one young lad was saying that hell exists because Jesus rose from the dead and has seen more of the afterlife than we have. -What?? There are so many problems with those statements.

In any case, there are problems with hell in regards to its existence (not the morality of it - so that is not up for discussion). What is up for discussion, however, is whether it exists. However, I have since realised that believers, especially Christians, are already on the losing side when arguing for its existence. In other words, there is actually no proof whatsoever that such a "place" actually exists.

Additionally, I was particularly astounded by the arguments used to "prove" its existence - for example, one lady on the aforementioned show asserted that the presence of "evil" was enough for us to believe that hell exists and she mentioned Hitler and Mao and so on and so forth. However, this is clearly not evidence or a sufficient argument whatsoever.

What's more is that any Dick or Harry could simply say that "Neverland" exists and say random things to try to back up as evidence of its existence - however he would not have actually presented any credible evidence.

In short, can Christians and others not see that they are already by default fighting on a losing side when arguing for the existence of hell, especially in this day and age where humans have much more access to information and are arguably much brighter than the people of yester-centuries.

What evidence can be provided for hell or heaven? Unfortunately, it would seem that there is none at all - unless of course, anybody would beg to differ?

This should prove to be an interesting discussion...

I think that even religious folks are questioning the heaven-hell thing these days.
Religion has to be re-vamped (imo) to suit the times
IE the Vatican saying that life could exist beyond our planet.

reply to post by canucks555


I know right - it's absolutely ridiculous.

Whilst watching the aforementioned show, I just realised that I thought that what the Christians were saying was absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous and that they actually looked greatly ridiculous. It made me imagine how future humans would view such people and beliefs - it would look so utterly ridiculous. I mean, one lady was saying how she "loves Jesus more than her loved ones and family and children". But this makes no rational sense - in fact, it is greatly irrational. One has never met Jesus and his existence is unverified. Ergo, the lady is effectively saying "I love an invisible and unverified being whose existence is unverified more than my own children and loved ones who are themselves real, tangible and verified". Because it's "religion", it's afforded protection. Take the "religion" factor out of it, and millions, if not billions, should actually be sectioned under mental health concerns.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


Have you read the books Life After Life? Its from a doctors point of view from dealing with patients who have died and have come back, and near death experiences. In most cases people go through the tunnel, come to a light and see a religious figure, family and friends who have already passed....in one case there was a person who committed suicide and that person went to a dark place and the person felt something around him ....after a little while there were dogs ripping off the persons flesh and it went on for what seemed like 24 hrs....when all the flesh was gone, the dogs stopped...when the person felt all relaxed that the dogs had stopped, it started up again....it this scenario played out three times according to the book and the person came back to life...changed their ways too.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


You simply have terrible source of data and thought.

God wants you to search for these answers yourself, not hear them from other people who have other interests and intents in saying these things.

Look within so that you will see for yourself. This is a thread topic which isn't uncommon. But it is a thought which we should not learn a decisive answer from someone else.

We often like to talk to God, but much less often do we listen to God.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

Are you telling me those youtube videos of people who saw hell in a vision aren't good enough for you!? Well, we know where you're headed then, don't we?

Seriously. For the Christian, It's all about faith, and trust in God.

John 20:29

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

God isn't religion and you are living and breathing and are part of the dust that makes up the universe and this universe exists through evolution through the mind of God. Everything that science is missing can be linked together with God and as sure is the universe is expanding we are just a thought in his mind. Genesis was passed down from civilizations world wide and with today's knowledge if you look at it sounds absurd but with science put in between what was passed down it will become clear that this universe is the mind of God.

reply to post by Klassified


Are you serious? Anecdotal evidence is meant to be incontrovertible proof? Imagine if scientists simply worked by anecdotal evidence? Imagine if astronomers and whatnot simply took people's word for it that "a big purple planet exists just near the Oort cloud - I've seen it" and we should just believe it then?

I'm sorry, but we are humans. Do you know what that means? We are of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Do you know what that literal means in English, translated from Latin? It means, "wise man", "intelligent man". An intelligent man looks outside for himself, explores his surroundings, does not simply take people's word for it - how on Earth do you think Homo Sapiens Sapiens has got this far and not for example, Homo Erectus and whatnot?

reply to post by WarriorOfLight96


Unfortunately there is no proof for God (and that is up for another discussion). Right now, we are concerned with the controversy and issues surround "hell's existence".

Going by empirical inquiry, as that's what has enabled mankind to advance as far as now, nothing points to the existence of so far unproved and unverified beings (which have so far only been mentioned in books and by people's imaginations or "experiences").

reply to post by Klassified


What's more, unfortunately, the Bible proves nothing.

Did you read what I wrote about that young lad? That lad said "hell exists and Jesus would know more about the afterlife because he rose from the dead and had been there". What?? Do we have any evidence that a so far unverified man rose from the dead? Do we have evidence that he went to some "afterlife"?

reply to post by backcase


I am afraid that at the current moment, the existence of God, or Santa Claus or Satan or anything like so is so far unverified. Ergo, it is misguided of you to tell me to listen to what is essentially an imaginary being. If "religion" was taken out of the way, people would be viewed as having mental problems - but because they say "religion", suddenly hearing voices and whatnot is suddenly OK.

If a child told people that he heard the voice of Santa regularly, he'd be readily shipped off for therapy. But if he says he hears voices from God, suddenly it's OK.

reply to post by rangersdad


And so, NDEs are proof of hell and/or heaven? That does not follow. NDEs have not even been proven to be supernatural. There are said to be rational scientific explanations for them and I'm sure that as science progresses, we will be able to readily explain them just as we have explained other things that were previously thought of as supernatural and whatnot.

A NDE is not proof of God or Hell - for all we know, NDEs could be proof for a multidimensional multiverse. How could you prove that they are not proof of a multidimensional multiverse?

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


God often selects the most humble and inferior people to be His messengers and prophets. Although they could be called crazy, they often are extraordinary people who do extraordinary things.

God is not far from any of us, but it is possible for a man to place himself in a state of mind which is far from God.

I think that the treatment that takes place for people who are not considered whatever "normal" is these days is rash and leads to more harm than good. When a person is super sensitive to spiritual things then he deemed crazy, a raver, a lunatic, an outcast, etc. because they do not fit in the the worlds definition of "normal". But who is it that defines a normal man? and what behavior is considered normal?

What is wrong with trying to live a life as Jesus has? was He not a good man who performed good deeds and said good words?

St. Francis said to his monks who were considering the life of the order to be severe "It is God's decree that I be a 'madman' in this life." and he stuck to the Franciscan Order's severity.

Eyewitness accounts are good enough for the criminal justice system to condem a man, but are not good enough for you sir? It is obvious the only purpose to this thread was to promote your atheist agenda and not have a discussion.

So, in science it is possible for there to be wormholes in the universe, however, no one has ever seen one. Interesting. It is also possible to time travel at the speed of light, but once again, no has or can do it. You see it depends on the side of the fence you sit on. You can say the hell is impossible and that God does not exist, and I can say wormholes and light speed time travel are impossible.

The argument for Hell at least has eyewitness accounts to support it. Like what I said earlier, eyewitness accounts are enough to condem a man to death.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

What evidence can be provided for hell or heaven? Unfortunately, it would seem that there is none at all

The religious evidence is actually lack of evidence. They are quite content to challenge rational thinkers to prove that things DON'T exist. Prove that god doesn't exist. Prove that heaven and hell don't exist. This argument couldn't be more illogical.

However, even as an atheist I can come with evidence of hell. Seeing as the religious believe there is a heaven, then their argument should be that everything has an opposite: up-down, right-wrong, hot-cold, matter-antimatter... Using this logic, then there must be a hell if there is a paradise somewhere. It's all BS, but at least it follows a semi-logical train of thought.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


What do we call occurence which science can not explaine? They are call phenomina. Phenomina is science way of explaining miricales and the supernatural.(beyond nature). To off handedly say that NDE's are not real events, and that "science can explain it" is intellectually dishonest. Science can not explain every NDE as the dying of the brain*. Science has proved nothing more than hypothesises and presuppositions.

*There are many cases where in an NDE the person explained being above their body and explained surgical procedures. Some cases, the person explained what was going on in other surgical rooms.

"Hell" Is this physical plane of existence that we inhabit. There is no fiery depths of hell with a horned goat man guarding the entrance, nor is there a gated cloud garden which lies beyond the stars with a white bearded man in white at the gates.

Once you realize that we are living and struggling through hell, you should be able to breathe a sigh of relief.

reply to post by Siberbat

Eyewitness accounts are good enough for the criminal justice system to condemn a man, but are not good enough for you sir?

Pretty sure we could dig up eye witness accounts of vampires and werewolves. Should we believe them? If not, then why believe someone's story about going to hell? Why believe someone's story of human flesh rotting for three days then rising from the dead?

If we were THAT gullible, then what's to stop a jury from believing 'eyewitness' accounts of a man in a coma robbing a store a month ago?

Jury: "Well, they said they saw him do it, so when he wakes up from his five-year coma we'll send him to prison."

Originally posted by clairvoyantrose
"Hell" Is this physical plane of existence that we inhabit. There is no fiery depths of hell with a horned goat man guarding the entrance, nor is there a gated cloud garden which lies beyond the stars with a white bearded man in white at the gates.

Once you realize that we are living and struggling through hell, you should be able to breathe a sigh of relief.

The picture of these things which you have in your mind are supposed to incite you to meditation, although overtime you have just brushed them off, without paying attention to interior contemplation, and with incredulous denial you have made a more mundane explanation rather than a spiritual one.

Are spiritual concepts not meant to be taken in by the spirit? or are they to be brought to the judgement of man's senses?

Originally posted by backcase

Originally posted by clairvoyantrose
"Hell" Is this physical plane of existence that we inhabit. There is no fiery depths of hell with a horned goat man guarding the entrance, nor is there a gated cloud garden which lies beyond the stars with a white bearded man in white at the gates.

Once you realize that we are living and struggling through hell, you should be able to breathe a sigh of relief.

The picture of these things which you have in your mind are supposed to incite you to meditation, although overtime you have just brushed them off, without paying attention to interior contemplation, and with incredulous denial you have made a more mundane explanation rather than a spiritual one.

Are spiritual concepts not meant to be taken in by the spirit? or are they to be brought to the judgement of man's senses?

edit on 25-2-2013 by backcase because: (no reason given)

I never said we weren't spiritual beings. Because we most certainly are. We are forever connected to everything that is and always will be. I mean "hell" as in learning, suffering, figuring things out, learning what is right and what is wrong. We are here to experience and find out who we truly are under the physical aspect of things. I am very "spiritual" but not religious in any way what so ever. Religion just separates and puts people on pedestals. If there is financial gain behind it, it is not of truth or love. There are far too many distractions set out by society now a days It's hard to get past the veil for majority of the population.

Meditation brings you closer to the higher realms of being, energy, love, and light. Which is where we should be and this planet is suffering because of it. We need to be the higher vibrational beings this planet needs us to be.