Why was Jesus' Resurrection not convincing?

reply to post by wildtimes


The premises for the resurrection is the innocent was killed because of the sin of many. This is literally what happened. This is what it means that he paid the price for our sin. Because we all sin, we are all lawbreakers. God considers any act of sin to be against him. Therefore we all took/take part in the greed and envy that lead to Jesus crucifixion.

If Jesus is not resurrected than God is a liar. God said the punishment for sin is death. Jesus did not sin so he should not face the punishment of death. If Jesus is not resurrected than he lied, because the punishment for sin is death. If he is not resurrected than he was not without sin. If he was not without sin than he cannot teach us to overcome sin.

If you can accept the penalty for sin is death, can you see we must believe that the innocent man was resurrected because he was without sin?

Proving to us the penalty for sin is death but for the obedient life. His resurrection proves that he was without sin and can promise us Grace and forgiveness. All that is left is for us to have faith that we to can overcome sin. The reward for overcoming your sin is eternal life.

Jesus paved the way for the sinful man to come back into Grace with God. Not so much that God ever stopped loving us. He showed us why we feel like God no longer loves us. He shows us how our sin keeps us from feeling the love of God. He promises that if we come back to the lord and overcome our sin that we too will be resurrected with him.

If he was not resurrected than both the innocent and guilty face the same punishment, this is unjust indeed. If he was not resurrected, a man free from sin, than no one should expect to be resurrected.

Resurrection is the promise given to all who defeat their sin.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If he was not resurrected, a man free from sin, than no one should expect to be resurrected.

Hi, sac...

You are right, no one should expect to be "resurrected" - but people are resuscitated all the time - innocent AND guilty. And REINCARNATION is the key. You must be born again. Born again. Of water (amniotic fluid), and Spirit (soul).

Besides, the whole three-days thing IS from the sun-worship thing - the sun at its lowest lingers there for 3 days...then it begins to rise again toward directly overhead. Once there, down it goes until the next winter solstice. Every year. Over and over. Measurable. Predictable. Scientifically proven evidence. Primitive men without science were afraid if the sun wasn't worshipped and offered "sacrifice of the blood of the innocent", the sun would continue to dwindle, sink, and be gone.

That doesn't happen.

What people don't see, I think, is that one can still embrace the "teachings" of Jesus and all the many masters who have trod the earth; can still love one another, without believing a preposterous story that is ONLY MYTH, and not even an original one. And, I THINK that stubborn clutching of the "Christian resurrection" is just FEAR of being wrong....a primal dread of the unknown.

We have nothing to fear. We will all live many, many lives. Nothing you say can convince me of the resurrection, nor will I be convinced we only get ONE go round. That's what Jesus (if he existed) spread as his message: we are eternal, souls having a human experience. Karma is far older than "hell" - and makes much better sense.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Everything that lives dies. Plants and animals, even little babies that NEVER sinned die. Even Jesus died at some point! Sin has nothing to do with it. It's just a law of nature.

What doesn't die is the soul. It never dies, whether it be sinful or pure.

reply to post by wildtimes


Not many years ago I could accept everything you say, but no longer do I have the ability to do that. Telling me that what I believe can't be true is like telling Buddha there was no light. That somehow through his imagination he created all of these ideas himself. You would have to deny the source of the information, which to him was clearly something in him but not him. He could see a cosmic wisdom at work that was truth simply because it was truth, not because it was his truth, but because it is "the" truth.

The biggest problem I have with people not believing is the path to the light is so much simpler than we believe, but not as simple as Protestants would have you believe. The path, understand Jesus and then do what he did. It only sounds impossible, but it is quite easy once you realize that God is helping you.

Everyone can become a master, Buddha, enlightened. You can read 1000 books and still scratch you head at what you "think" God is". Or you can "know" God. The path to love, the light, Christ. The bible works and puts the requirements in simple instructions. So easy a 5 year old could understand what Jesus is teaching, and she did.

Maybe it was easier for my daughter who was raised without bias. Many will say I raised her Christian so how could that be without bias. I taught her how to love like Christ, not by my words but through his. I taught her that God is with her and wants to talk to her she just needs to listen to love. I taught her that God loves her and forgives her, when she turns back to love.

If it was just my experience I could pass everything off as crazy. But both my daughter and step daughter have had the same experience. We simply applied Jesus to our lives and we found God. Literally, undeniably, without need for any additional proof, God himself has proven he is real to us in Spirit.

So when you call the book a fairy tale based on other books I cannot agree. What I see is two things, claims that something predates Christ, that we have no historical or archeological evidence to prove. And stories about our past that predate the flood. I believe Adam was close to 1000 years old when he died, I imagine he knew a few things and passed the stories on. The fact that their are other stories similar to the bible could simply mean that some of the knowledge in the bible was also revealed before the flood. This belief actually strengthens the case for the bible not weakens it.

Here is everyone's biggest problem with proving the bible wrong to me. Every issue you have with the bible I can counter with a logical, plausible, yet equally improvable answer. As long as I can counter any logic that you present with the opposite yet equally logical and plausible idea, then the bible has not been disproven. Maybe in your mind but clearly not in mine.

I still have a couple of questions for you and everyone.

What part of my interpretation, from a concept standpoint can you not agree with. Forget that the concept comes from the bible for a second. What is wrong with what I am saying? What am I saying that is against you, against love, or against Christ, for the Christians who want to condemn me?

The next question is where did I get this interpretation from? I am clearly crediting God so if not God where?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Everything that lives dies. Plants and animals, even little babies that NEVER sinned die. Even Jesus died at some point! Sin has nothing to do with it. It's just a law of nature.

What doesn't die is the soul. It never dies, whether it be sinful or pure.

Are you God? Because you speak as though you are. God is not defined by nor confined by the laws of nature. All things are possible for God.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I'm not meaning to attack you, sac, I hope you know that.

I simply don't believe that version, and I think I explained why.
Could I be wrong? Yes, certainly. But there is no doubt that many, many myths and traditions have the same elements that appear in Christianity.
There is no question that people are resuscitated. Nor is there any question that the sun "stops" in its point on the horizon for three days at winter solstice, and that people forever have been aware of it, revered it, and feared its failure to occur each year.

Those are facts.

I suggest you might read some comparative theology works, particularly Karen Armstrongs, "History of God; the 4,000 year quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam", as well as Robert Wright's "Evolution of God."

There is far too much evidence of common themes among cultures that are repeated over and over - by peoples who didn't even know each other existed.

The fact that people have the ideas of "soul existence" and "Supreme Reality" across all of humankind's history points to a universal element which is described by thinkers and philosophers in the only way they can do so - with language.

I simply don't see the need to insist that something clearly improbable and also 'repetitive' of prior "belief systems" should be taken literally without further investigation.
No offense.

reply to post by wildtimes


You say they didn't even know each other. I give you Babel. You see the bible really does not leave anything without plausible explanation. It is nearly impossible to disprove, and if you understand what it says it contains no contradictions.

Meaning it says not to judge and it defines the way in which there can be only one truth and no judgment. This in itself should prove the bible divine. A book that claims to be the inspired word of God, that teaches no judgment. Stop listening to Christians, start listening to Jesus.

I know your not attacking, its ok.

reply to post by sacgamer25

You say they didn't even know each other. I give you Babel.

What does Babel have to do with ancient cultures from various continents all having "creation myths" and ideas of life after death??

I stopped listening to Christians as "experts" long ago. I do listen to what they show as "Jesus'" teachings.
I also listen to what other cultures say - Hindu, Buddhist, ancient American cultures, etc. What they all have IN COMMON is what informs me.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Everything that lives dies. Plants and animals, even little babies that NEVER sinned die. Even Jesus died at some point! Sin has nothing to do with it. It's just a law of nature.

What doesn't die is the soul. It never dies, whether it be sinful or pure.

Are you God? Because you speak as though you are. God is not defined by nor confined by the laws of nature. All things are possible for God.

Are you refuting that all life on planet Earth dies?

I've never seen God do anything that defied the laws of nature, let alone bring a living thing back from the dead. Have you?

I have, however, seen living things die, including innocent and sin free lives extinguished. Dying is part of nature, not a punishment for existence.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Everything that lives dies. Plants and animals, even little babies that NEVER sinned die. Even Jesus died at some point! Sin has nothing to do with it. It's just a law of nature.

What doesn't die is the soul. It never dies, whether it be sinful or pure.

Are you God? Because you speak as though you are. God is not defined by nor confined by the laws of nature. All things are possible for God.

Are you refuting that all life on planet Earth dies?

I've never seen God do anything that defied the laws of nature, let alone bring a living thing back from the dead. Have you?

I have, however, seen living things die, including innocent and sin free lives extinguished. Dying is part of nature, not a punishment for existence.

The bible says death is brought about by sin and that we may overcome sin and live forever.
You say I must die, God says I will live forever. Even if I am wrong I will keep to what I believe.

The problem that most have with what I say is fear. This is both good and unnecessary. We should be afraid of the consequences of our action. We should expect to be judged. It is unnecessary because we have the promise of love and forgiveness so we know that if we return to the right path God will be there for us.

We can't let fear of punishment keep us from obtaining the prize of eternal life. We need to replace fear with Grace and forgiveness. There is one thing we must always understand that many Christians simply don't acknowledge.

God's forgiveness was given to you in power; do not use God's forgiveness to fuel your weakness. God's forgiveness is to lead you to righteousness it was not given to you as a license to sin. You must defeat sin completely, knowing that God is there for you and has sent the Holy Spirit to guide you and teach you.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

You say they didn't even know each other. I give you Babel.

What does Babel have to do with ancient cultures from various continents all having "creation myths" and ideas of life after death??

I stopped listening to Christians as "experts" long ago. I do listen to what they show as "Jesus'" teachings.
I also listen to what other cultures say - Hindu, Buddhist, ancient American cultures, etc. What they all have IN COMMON is what informs me.

According to the bible, Babel is the point in time where all men lived together with one language on one continent. Based on historical artifacts probably somewhere in Persia. The tower they were building in the new land they went to was probably the Great Pyramid. www.bibleufo.com... Although that did not come from divine inspiration only through intense study and searching.

After starting construction God decided that now that they had achieved coming together as one it was time to separate us.

If the bible is true than you would expect to find exactly what we find. Similar stories from people of different cultures and languages. Got to give it to God on that one. Amazing how similar some of those ancient stories are. Almost like at one point they shared a common ancestor.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The bible says death is brought about by sin and that we may overcome sin and live forever. You say I must die, God says I will live forever. Even if I am wrong I will keep to what I believe.

Then the Bible is wrong. All things die on earth. Even in the Garden of Eden there was fruit on the tree for Adam and Eve to eat. What fruit was not eaten fell to the ground and died, to create a new tree. This is the law of life and nature that comes with life on planet Earth.

The problem that most have with what I say is fear. This is both good and unnecessary. We should be afraid of the consequences of our action. We should expect to be judged. It is unnecessary because we have the promise of love and forgiveness so we know that if we return to the right path God will be there for us.

We are human, and humans make mistakes, and then, learn from them. That's our nature. Love and forgiveness are natural qualities that come through experience, as does all morality.

There is no need for a god in order for human morality to exist. In fact, it exist in spite of the Biblical God's commands of murder, enslavement, thievery and rape.

We can't let fear of punishment keep us from obtaining the prize of eternal life. We need to replace fear with Grace and forgiveness. There is one thing we must always understand that many Christians simply don't acknowledge.

I don't believe in a God that judges and punishes, so I have no fear of him.

God's forgiveness was given to you in power; do not use God's forgiveness to fuel your weakness. God's forgiveness is to lead you to righteousness it was not given to you as a license to sin. You must defeat sin completely, knowing that God is there for you and has sent the Holy Spirit to guide you and teach you.

There is no one, including God, who judges me more harshly than I judge myself. It's self forgiveness, that comes from me, that is my salvation. I don't believe in asking a god, who created me imperfectly, to forgive me from my imperfections.

reply to post by sacgamer25

According to the bible, Babel is the point in time where all men lived together with one language on one continent.

And science has shown that south Africa is where the first common ancestors came from and migrated all over the place, yet you make my point here...This is what I'm talking about. The Bible was written by people who didn't KNOW THAT.

They put it in there, mistakenly, because they didn't know better. They were culture-centric, and unaware of what the rest of the world contained. Now, we know.

We know. So, it's time to let the 'deductions' based on limited knowledge go, and embrace what we know, with delight and an eye toward the future.
In my opinion.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

Take the Occam's razor approach then. No person can go for 3 hours without breathing.

As far as I know, no "person" did.

You should re-read the historical account in the gospels then. Take note of the time of day He exclaimed "it is finished" and gave up the ghost and compare with the time of day the Roman guards broke the legs of the other two men being crucified.

Three hours transpired with no movement from Jesus to breathe, which is only possible by pulling up with the arms and pushing off the nails into the feet with ones legs. (The entire purpose of breaking the legs of the other two)

So again, no one can hold their breath for 3 hours.

reply to post by wildtimes

No. He did not. Not according to ANY records ANYWHERE

That's actually precisely what the historical narrative in the gospels state.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by wildtimes

 

No. He did not. Not according to ANY records ANYWHERE

That's actually precisely what the historical narrative in the gospels state.

Good, then the gospels got it right by saying he did not do so. According to any records anywhere. So, why do you buy it?

Originally posted by wildtimes

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by wildtimes

 

No. He did not. Not according to ANY records ANYWHERE

That's actually precisely what the historical narrative in the gospels state.

Good, then the gospels got it right by saying he did not do so. According to any records anywhere.

So, why do you buy it?

Huh? The gospels state in fact that He was not breathing for a 3 hour period of time.

That's why His legs were not broken like the other two men crucified with Him.

Look at the time of day recorded when He said it is finished and the time of day recorded when the two thieves had their legs broken. That's a three hour period of time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I know the story. You are basing what happened on a particular set of circumstances that are conjectural. There were different methods of attaching people to their "crosses" which weren't even much more than trees. I have read that he had a small platform to stand on. I know that crucifixion took days. I also know that hours were counted differently.

People did survive if brought down quickly enough. Fact.

He was brought down early. Agreed.

Stabbed through the heart? Not "fact", it's one version.
Nailed through the feet? Not "fact", it's one version
Brutally whipped with sherd-embedded instruments of torture? Not "fact", it's one version.

Dead and resurrected? One version.
Survived with help of network, and was in exile? One version.

Both versions widely respected. And neither of them are my doing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


John is the only book that has the guards breaking legs, and it's done BEFORE the Sabbath. If Joseph and Nicodemus had to wait until 6:00, it would have been well into the Sabbath that they were tending to a "dead" body and that would not have been "kosher." The whole purpose of their deal with Pilate, to take down the body before the Sabbath, at sunset, would have been for naught!

Also, the same guards, who didn't break Jesus' legs, pierced his side. The blood and water that flowed proved that his heart was still beating, and therefore, he was still alive at that time.

reply to post by windword


Passover was an "appointed feast" Sabbath, not the calendar Saturday Sabbath.