Why was Jesus' Resurrection not convincing?

reply to post by wildtimes

My belief is that he wasn't dead ... but nearly so....and was looked after, "spirited away" by his friends, who'd made a deal with Pilate to have his body. He then was wrapped in the shroud, still alive, with balms and ointments. He recovered, showed up to his friends, still wounded, hungry and thirsty, and then he fled the area (wouldn't you, after surviving an assassination/ execution attempt?) to safe haven in the East. There are loads of documents indicating he was, known as Issa, alive for another few decades.

there is something similar in a book named The Jesus Papers by Micheal Baigent.

reply to post by namine


I think he survived and was rather hiding and so couldnt reveal himself. In the bible Mary Magdalene assumed him to be the gardener, that means he could have been under disguise.
The disciples may have got persecuted not because they claimed resurrection but because they claimed him being alive/survived and it would be an insult to authorities that they failed to perform a simple execution.
Just my thoughts, however it fits with the islamic view.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by namine

 

In the Gospel accounts, the Resurrection was convincing enough to anybody who saw the resurrected Jesus.
That sets up a third option; the Resurrection WAS convincing, but only revealed directly to a small number of people.

This. The Gospel account is that the disciples were terrified, in hiding, Peter denying, over the Jesus thing. Then they come to understand that Jesus has been resurrected. They go out to the ends of the earth preaching this, until 10 of the remaining 11 Apostles and uncounted disciples are put to death for this belief.

The scholarly and academic Jesus Seminar reported/concluded these were visionary experiences of a few key apostles and not literally a "risen Jesus" that you or I could have seen. For the sake of this discussion lets accept this 100% without question, it goes to the heart of the question of why his resurrection wasn't enough --- it was and that his disciples "experience" that he was resurrected was the game changer.

reply to post by namine


Remember that he was obedient unto the point of death, and did everything that was necessary to fulfill all the prophecies and to complete the law.

I think it was because most people probably didn`t even know he was dead so seeing him alive wasn`t a big shock.
A lot of people didn`t even know who he was even when he was alive.

They didn`t have T.V. and internet then so news of his resurrection probably didn`t travel far or very fast.
His followers were lower class workers, whores, fishermen, etc so i guess most people didn`t really believe what they had to say.

If he was serious about convincing people of his resurrection he should have presented himself to the governor of the region and the pharisees, but maybe that`s why he didn`t present himself to them because he really wasn`t resurrected?

The 'Death & Resurrection' show...

...available at all good bookstores (or your friendly motel of choice)...

There is a huge problem fitting 'real-life' events to a well-worn rerun formula...there is also a huge problem fitting archetypal formulas to any 'modern' setting...there are bound to be 'problems' with the story...

A99

Originally posted by Tardacus
If he was serious about convincing people of his resurrection he should have presented himself to the governor of the region and the pharisees, but maybe that`s why he didn`t present himself to them because he really wasn`t resurrected?

What they can do to a man once they can do a second time..

The one thing that people often forget, or even don't realize is that resurrection myths were actually common at the time of Jesus and even before him. Resurrections stories exist in almost all major religions.. in fact the Egyptian God Horus's story is remarkably similar to the Jesus story which is why I tend to think that the story of Jesus is actually based on much older myths ..

Consider these similarities between Horus and Jesus, Horus long pre-dates Jesus.

1. Horus was born to a virgin ( as was Jesus )
2. He was the only son of the God Osiris. ( Jesus was the only son of God )
3. He was born in a manger ( same as Jesus )
4. A manger and child representing Horus were paraded every winter solstice in December.. similar to Jesus.
5. He was baptized at the age of 30 ( same as Jesus )
6. His baptizer was beheaded, just as John the Baptist
7. He healed the sick and cast out demons, performed miracles.
8. He was crucified and resurrected in 3 days, just like Jesus.

This is just the story of Horus, there are dozens of other characters in history that share remarkably similar stories... this is why I tend not to believe it.. I think they are just variations of the same story.. while I think Jesus may have really existed ( no solid evidence to support that, not even the shroud is definitive ).. he very well could have been real.. but I think the stories are likely just applied to him and existed way before he did in various forms.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The thread title is a begging the question fallacy. It was not convincing to "some people", it was very convincing to others.. like the people who saw Him resurrected. Of special note, His half-brothers James and Jude who weren't believers until the resurrection.

Thor was very convincing to the Nordics, too. But like the Nazarenes, they weren't what we would call educated...a child's magic trick would be top-class sorcery to them, if that tells you anything.

Non sequitur. Norse mythology has no relation to my point about Jesus and His flesh and blood half-brothers.

reply to post by miniatus


Much of that has been proven wrong and fallacious based on a source which for the most part made it up out of whole cloth.

Originally posted by namine
I think I've heard an argument like this on a Zeitgeist documentary ages ago. I'm going to have to watch it again and pay extra attention.

Most of the information is from an article which touches upon the Zeitgeist movie. But with that though, I have heard that some of the information isn't correct also so it would probably be better to verify the information through other sources if its possible.

What are the chances so many resurrection stories could be that similar??

Well if the information about the previous Gods are correct, it shows that the Jesus scenario is not unique at all and maybe we are simply worshipping some Pagan ritual which has been around for thousands of years. But there is evidence that this is possibly right. Stonehedge, The Pyramids and other ancient structres seeem to focus on the Solstices also.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by miniatus

 

Much of that has been proven wrong and fallacious based on a source which for the most part made it up out of whole cloth.

Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[6][7] and used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a gold phallus[8] to conceive her son.[citation needed] Once Isis knew she was pregnant with Horus, she fled to the Nile Delta marshlands to hide from her brother Set who jealously killed Osiris and who she knew would want to kill their son.[9] There Isis bore a divine son, Horus.

I understand that it may not mimic the Jesus story to a tee but the two do have very similar stories. And if you take a look at revelation in the Bible, this same story could be applied to the Woman giving birth and the Dragon who sets out to kill the Newborn also. So does Jesus return or do we receive a new God somewhere down the track who will have very similar traits?

reply to post by namine


I guess god mustn't have enough loaves and fishes up there in heaven to cover the multitudes that it would have to endure if jesus exposed himself to all and sundry. Or looking at it another way, just one more nail in the coffin of this deluded religion. Don't get too propped up with that statement muslims, your religion is just as deluded.

reply to post by namine

We know that when someone tells a story, they don't do it without a reason for doing so.
What do you suppose was Jesus' reason for sharing this parable?
Luke 16: 27-31 Biblegateway
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

OP...

It is MY belief that the resurrection "story" is like the "story" of all men.

This is why the "story" is so important. His last words are equally as important in the "story". He said, "Its finished". I take "its finished" to mean his evolution overcoming matter with his spirit. He had evolved and conquered the flesh/form. This is something we all must do. How many lives are we allowed? Probably as many as we have to in order to complete the process.

The creator has an idea... an image of what the finished, collective painting, will look like but it is up to us to finish it with our will. How will WE create it? How is looking right now around the globe? How can we create this portrait the prettiest imaginable? We are too creators. This is evident!

How long do we have? I think... Eternity.... if not in this plane on Earth, another.... it will no doubt be "in time".

It is also my belief, Jesus was the first and will be the last Adam/Atom that has created this human race we call man. HIS story represents OURS. It is a reflection of it... literally. Details may not be the same, however what is the same is (1) overcoming matter with spirit. (2) We will be resurrected. (3) One day "in time"... we will also say, "Its finished".

This place, time and experience is only temporary, and temporary in an image. Its our story.. an expression... and comes from the inspiration of the creative force. This expression is life.

We all have a story don't we? It makes us who we are. How we overcome leads to our fate..... like Jesus.

reply to post by namine


Not convincing to whom?

It's convincing to 2.2+ billion Christians now in 2013 and has been convincing to probably 10 billion or so throughout the ages.... and God only knows how many more billions before His return?

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by miniatus

 

Much of that has been proven wrong and fallacious based on a source which for the most part made it up out of whole cloth.

Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[6][7] and used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a gold phallus[8] to conceive her son.[citation needed] Once Isis knew she was pregnant with Horus, she fled to the Nile Delta marshlands to hide from her brother Set who jealously killed Osiris and who she knew would want to kill their son.[9] There Isis bore a divine son, Horus.

I understand that it may not mimic the Jesus story to a tee but the two do have very similar stories. And if you take a look at revelation in the Bible, this same story could be applied to the Woman giving birth and the Dragon who sets out to kill the Newborn also. So does Jesus return or do we receive a new God somewhere down the track who will have very similar traits?

edit on 24-2-2013 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)

Can you explain what prophesies Horus fulfilled? Was Horus born of a human female? Did Horus have a human nature and a divine nature in one person? Was he a historical figure? Did Horus redeem the transgressions of the individual? If you can support the case for Horus by answering those questions, it would be impressive. Besides, what makes you think pious Jews would take their Messiah from pagans...BAHAHAHA!!!! Do you KNOW what the Jews did to pagans.....BAHAHAHA!!! I'll give you a star for the laugh.

Originally posted by Siberbat
Can you explain what prophesies Horus fulfilled?

Why did Horus have to fulfill prophecies? Horus is a God and Saviour of Ancient Egypt, not Christianity..

Was Horus born of a human female?

Horus was depicted being cradled by his mother in some statues and was also claimed to be the Son of two Egyptian deities Osirus and Isis. It is alleged he was born of a Virgin..

Did Horus have a human nature and a divine nature in one person? Was he a historical figure? Did Horus redeem the transgressions of the individual?

Well yes. He was claimed to be the son of the gods of the time and with that had similar traits to Christ also. A Historical figure? We still hear about today so I'd say he must of been important back in those days for what ever reason it may be.

He was considered to be the son of two major Egyptian deities: the God Osirus and and the Goddess Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father's murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice.

I don't know whether he redeemed the transgressions but he was certainly a historical figure who ruled through civil order and justice.

If you can support the case for Horus by answering those questions, it would be impressive. Besides, what makes you think pious Jews would take their Messiah from pagans...BAHAHAHA!!!! Do you KNOW what the Jews did to pagans.....BAHAHAHA!!! I'll give you a star for the laugh.

I know what the Jews did to Jesus also and the Jews didn't recognise Jesus as their messiah like they won't the second time around also. Maybe you shouldn't be laughing...

Similarities between Jesus and Horus

In the link it gives a list of how the two can be compared. You will notice that almost every piece of information does have a striking simularity.

Funny - you say it "wasn't convincing" like that's a fact...

Not sure what you're point of reference is but I'm pretty sure you're talking about it 2000 years after it happened & there's a whole religion built around the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Pretty damn convincing if you ask me...

reply to post by namine


Let's look at the evidence:

Consider the strength of the evidence

1. The large stone was moved, in spite of the Roman guards and seal
Jesus' tomb was secured in three ways:
(a) A large stone was rolled against it. It was customary to roll big stones against tombs; the stones were generally too big to be moved by just a few men, so levers were used to move them. Some have estimated that the stone that sealed Jesus' tomb weighed 1-1/2 to 2 two tons (1,361-1,814 Kilograms), which is the approximate weight of a midsize car.
(b) A Roman guard unit--which usually consisted of four soldiers--was stationed at the tomb. Roman guards were strictly disciplined fighting men held to the highest standards. Failure often required death by torturous and humiliating methods.
(c) The Roman seal was affixed to the stone that secured the tomb. The seal stood for the power and authority of the Roman Empire. Breaking the seal meant automatic execution by crucifixion upside down. Anyone trying to move the stone from the tomb's entrance would have broken the seal and thus incurred the wrath of Roman law.1
On resurrection Sunday morning, the first thing that impressed the people who approached the tomb was that the large stone was moved.3 Certainly the entire guard unit would not have fallen asleep with torture and death as the consequences. But even if the guards did fall asleep, how could thieves have sneaked by the guards and moved the massive stone without waking them up?

2. The tomb was empty
Jesus' tomb was near Jerusalem (John 19:42). Had the tomb not been empty, claims of the resurrection, which were first made in Jerusalem, could not have been maintained for even one hour-- people in Jerusalem could have gone to the tomb to check for themselves.3
Both Jewish and Roman sources and admit an empty tomb. Those resources range from Josephus to a compilation of fifth-century Jewish writings called the "Toledoth jeshu."3

3. Jesus' burial wrappings were in the tomb
The linen wrappings in the tomb amazed the disciples. Jesus had simply moved through the wrappings, apparently without a struggle, and laid the face cloth aside. Had Jesus' body been stolen, the thieves would not have taken the time to remove the wrappings or fold the face cloth.

4. There were many witnesses to Jesus' appearances
In studying an event in history, it is important to know how many participants or eyewitnesses were still alive when reports about the event were published. If the number was substantial, the event can be regarded as fairly well established, because the eyewitnesses could have refuted an inaccurate report. For instance, if several people witness a murder, and the police report about it contains numerous lies, the eyewitnesses can refute it.3
The apostle Paul wrote that Christ had been seen by more than 500 people at one time. What's more, most of the 500 were still alive when Paul was proclaiming the resurrection, so skeptics could simply question the eyewitnesses:

1 Cor 15:3-6 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep

5. New Testament accounts were circulated among people who were alive at the time of the resurrection
Archaeological discoveries have confirmed that New Testament accounts of the resurrection were written within the lifetimes of people who were alive at the time of the resurrection. Those people could certainly have denied the accuracy of the Gospel writers' accounts.

6. The followers of Christ were persecuted and killed for proclaiming the resurrection
Jesus' disciples fled when Jesus was arrested and taken away for trial prior to being crucified. They were apparently afraid that they would be imprisoned or killed for of their association with Jesus. Peter even denied that he knew Jesus. After Jesus was crucified and buried, they remained in hiding, afraid and depressed, until Mary and others came to tell them that Jesus had risen from the dead. Why would these men, who had displayed such cowardice, risk their lives in going from city to city proclaiming the resurrection, if they did not truly believe that Jesus had risen from the dead? They certainly gained nothing for doing so. The disciples did not receive wealth or prestige for preaching the resurrection; there were no material benefits whatsoever. In fact, they were beaten, stoned to death, thrown to lions, tortured, aand crucified for their preaching.