Why are Americans deluded into thinking they could win a civil war?

Originally posted by quietlearner
reply to post by SerratedSoul

 

I just don't see a good ending with armed revolution
if anything it would be peaceful protest
I wonder how many of the armed revolution advocates dismissed or ridiculed OWS
or how many of them critique and insult anonymous
it would be an interesting statistic and will be very telling
if what they truly want is change or violence

I think you'll fnd that most armed Americans were not supporters of "occupy" because of that movement's hard core Communist type theme. The socialists are actually probably the first people that armed, freedom loving, constitution protecting American rebels would target.

well written sir. i think alot of them would just hand there guns over if told to, but like you said there will a few rambo types that think they can take on there armed forces. it seems the yanks care more about there guns than they do about human lifes. they will come up with any old excuse in why they should keep them. i live in a country where guns are not allowed, and im very happy about that. more and more innocent people are going to die in america until something is done to control gun owners. oh well, the rest of the world can sit back and watch all the yanks kill each other if a civil war breaks out.

reply to post by sajuek

If they tried even a fraction of the things you've proposed, that would be the end of the established order and it would be all over for them.

The one things that the government of the USA does NOT want is a revolution or insurrection, even if such a civil war is "winnable" by winning it they would lose big time, you don't understand the historical impact, which would reverberate indefinitely until a complete transformation is realized, not in military affairs, but in human affairs.

Originally posted by digital71
well written sir. i think alot of them would just hand there guns over if told to, but like you said there will a few rambo types that think they can take on there armed forces. it seems the yanks care more about there guns than they do about human lifes. they will come up with any old excuse in why they should keep them. i live in a country where guns are not allowed, and im very happy about that. more and more innocent people are going to die in america until something is done to control gun owners. oh well, the rest of the world can sit back and watch all the yanks kill each other if a civil war breaks out.

You shame every Scotsman that ever lived with your fussy attitude. What happened to your once great Scottish nation? A nation of rugged individuality and self-sufficiency used to exist in the graveyard of liberty now called Scotland.

I am of Scottish extraction and your post makes me very angry. America will never be disarmed.

Originally posted by GreenGlassDoor
reply to post by Druscilla

 

How could we emulate the French revolution when it was in 1789, after the US was founded in 1787?

My apologies.
Thank you for repairing this inexcusable error.

Such must certainly make everything I've said, entirely without merit ...

... or perhaps, someone might like to consider the contextual placement of the error?

Well done. I was expecting another page of two to go by before anyone noticed and pointed it out.
Star for you.

For those that did read it, and didn't catch it, has anything been learned?

Anyone who thinks that outside forces will idle while there is a revolution in USA is just plain wrong
USA is not just another country of the bunch
USA holds the world currency
if the USA economy goes down then the economy of half the world will go down
that alone is enough incentive for outside forces to try to intervene

Do you want me to start listing other reasons why there will be outside intervention?
It really shows a lot about people dreaming of armed revolution that I have to even explain this

economy, influence, military tech, power, grudges, nukes
do you think the world will stand idle while the country with most nukes is unstable?

I guarantee outside forces will intervene

Originally posted by sajuek
Why are Americans deluded into thinking they could win a civil war?

Err durr.......Because they are DELUDED!!

LOL The answer is in your question.

Hilarious,

reply to post by sajuek


they cant use those weapons without their own troops turning on them. They cant risk their own troops dying by the use of them.

Also factor in the amount of military families and just general militant people in the US. You shouldnt take a spartan society lightly.


In the end it is just wishful thinking that our government has omnipotence. It is an illusion bud.

I will wish that it doesnt come down to an armed uprising. That would be horrible. Yet it may happen if nothing changes, or rather stops changing in the direction its going.

Are we seriously having this argument AGAIN?!? How many times a week must a thread of this nature be written? Ah well, my thoughts.......

WMD's used on civilians ------------------------> Won't happen

Reason being that the end result equals the government cutting it's nose off to spite it's face. Like it or not, we are still needed for doing all the petty s**tty jobs that they don't want to do. Therefore, destroying the whole of the civilian population and environment means everybody loses and is therefore pointless. In other words you don't poo where you eat.

Americans have not the will to fight ----------> Mostly wrong

There may be some of us that think nothing about bootlicking and whatnot, I can assure you however that the amount of us that believe in freedom is formidable. There is a saying, you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.

Americans have not the means to fight ------> Again wrong

If there is one thing we are good at as a whole it is f**king things up, after all if we found a way (as a whole) to allow morons in Washington to slowly erode our rights then after the awakening (occuring now) we can throw a monkeywrench into all kinds of things thereby screwing them up.

This will somehow only be a domestic issue ----------> LOL

If you think the world will sit back and watch all I have to say to that is WTF LOL.

The world will if this hypothetically happened would end up in chaos, simply put WWIII. You think N. Korea will not take advantage to attack S. Korea? You think China wouldn't attack Japan, or start to look at the other far eastern countries with greedy eyes? You think Iran would not take the chance to attack Israel or vice versa? You think Mexico or Canada won't look out for thier own interests? If I were them I would be very worried about it spilling over to affect them. Rest assured there would be countries all over the world ready to take advantage of the situation one way or another. Worldwide in the end there would be all kinds of war and economic chaos.

All of this being said I would not expect a full blown revolution, but again life tends towards being stranger than fiction so who knows? If I was from a different country regardless of how you feel about Americans I would not be salivating and hoping for this to happen. You can dislike our government, alot of us would agree with you at this point in time. Lady Liberty has lost her luster, because we did get lazy and apathic, but like anything that tarnishes with a little elbow grease it can be made to gleam again.


@oneelectric What makes you think that if jobs are unnessesary due to the world being robotic industry that the people who rule would keep you or any of us around in the first place? Sad reality that until the eugenicist mindset goes the way of the dodo humankind would be better off if this doesn't become a reality. When people no longer have a desire for power and control then we may be in a position to accomplish great things.

Maybe it is an irrational fear, but I do have a fear of machines being smarter and stronger than us. If they have sentience and deem us as inferior then we will have possibly created our worst nightmare. Our end could very well be in our desire to play with the things we do not fully understand.

Sorry, but I think I have to agree with the OP on this one.

It appears that the consensus is that the only scenario in which we would win would be one with the military on our side. As others have already pointed out, it simply isn't feasible that EVERYONE in the military (/military-industrial complex) would be on the "liberty" side of the war (if this is a civil war we are talking about). In fact, we should know by now that TPTB are pretty solid with their social engineering skills via the media and shill/propaganda tactics, and would be able to convince many people that the liberty heads are stupid or crazy (aren't they doing that already.

If we are talking about a revolution, then I would at least hope we aren't targeting the government and instead go for the BANKSTERS who really hold the puppet strings. Otherwise, we are looking at a "same crap, different toilet" scenario. Even in this case, however, how are we going to convince the entire military to join our side? I'm not a gun grabber, but I can't make any sense of those who want to keep their guns because "it's the last defense against tyranny" (and no other reasons).... If that's really the goal, then we should spend more time reaching out to the military about how messed up their boss is-- something that continues to be pretty politically incorrect these days.

reply to post by yourmaker


Yep, rather then fight a revolutionary war, it would be much easier to take out the small number of corporate elites who currently run our country.

A few choice targets, and democracy could quickly be re-established.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
how many people are we talking about here ?

20 ?

belive it or not, 99.99999% of americans don't think a civil war is coing next tuesday

Well it's more than 20. It's about all of the right wing fringe in America. That's at least thousands of people.

reply to post by sajuek


Cosider how things are going in Syria. Here you have a ruthless leader with a loyal army and political minority
in control. Things aren't going swimmingly for the rebellion, even without outside help.

Had to post something, so I'll beat a dead horse:

First...there arent enough drones in the world to be effective in an urban fighting situation...especially when a lay-person can easily hack these things with a laptop and generator.

Second, civilians have far more weaponry than all armed forces combined. Bombs do not win a war. If they did, we'd have won Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, and Vietnam in a week. Unfortunately, America has lost every single jungle/urban warfare scenario it ever encountered.

Third...biologicals cant be released if TPTB want to ever come out of their bunkers. If a biological is released into the populace, the virus would eventually be resistent to all drugs because it would rapidly change into something competely different.

OP...most inventions come from garages. Garages of peeps like you and me. No army in the universe could ever tame the American people. Bombs, nukes, and warships are useless when confronting 300 million people.

The obese argument is absurd OP. Just because someone is fat or obese does not hinder their trigger finger. Dunno bout you, but I'd # my pants whether the guy robbing me was 120 or 320. Besides...about two mo.ths into a revolution...all those fat peeps would be pretty slim I imagine.

Id also like to hit one more point about biologicals. A species jump would happen. It always happens when viruses run rampant...H5N1 fir example. If left unchecked, every animal on the earth would either die or be infected. It seems redundant to wreck the very world you are trying to control.

Lastly...half of the technological DARPA data is just propoganda anyway. The government is not all powerful, nor can they be everywhere at once like they claim lol. Just use common sense for one second:

Jumbo jets have not changed in 60 years. Not one bit
Warships....still using WW2 era ships with modifications of only ordinance and nuclear power.
Internal combustion engines have not changed in 90 years.

Why? If theres all this super secret government technologies...why are our modes of transportation unchanged??
To answer by saying that civvies dont get military technology is illogical. The government doesnt have a monopoly on smart people. Corporations have think tanks and smart people as well, and yet...nada.

My thought is that any technological crap would be rendered completely useless the first week in an all out war scenario. What good is facial recognition in a revolution? A nuke is nonsense because the smart patriots arent going to congregate in pockets of a million to be bombed. What good are any warplanes? You think patriots will be marching in columns down a road to be bombed lmao??
Warships? Pfft...I can imagine the patriots wont be building ships to sail so ships are just as useful as a slingshot.

At the end of the day, it boils down to boots on the ground and small arms. If that is the case....the government is at a severe disadvantage. There are more rifles\ammo in civvy hands in America than there are in all the worlds armies combined. Hence, a government with perhaps a million followers has zero chance of winning an urban warfare scenario...in my opinion. But either way...Im gonna be on the side of Liberty and I will take at least one tyrannical mofo with me when the time comes.

I wish I was as smart as the OP to be able to word vomit nonsense like obese people cant pull a trigger. How smarmy...and completely asinine.

reply to post by TheOneElectric

What part of TPTB only want power and more power. There is no paradise in mans technocratic future. There are the powerful ( always has been always will be) people in this world, they disnt get that way by being nice, or caring about others.

Your supposed utopia can not exist, much as all men need food water and air to live, some will always have to subjegate their fellow man. Are you seriously so ignorant of the human heart you would believe that gi en enough rescourses man would somehow magically stop acting as he has for all of time?

Well, where is utopia then? We already have more than enough for everyone on the planet, so why are so many starving? I mean your an expert on human interaction obviously, you already know the future of man.

So, why in this time, when there is plenty for all does your utopia not commence?

Oh thats right, it is an ignorant adolescents imagination running rampant, when he should be using his brain to pass the midterms.

To win a civil war: Just stop the food and fuel from flowing. I'll park/disable my truck and eat carp.

I'm not sure the US government has won the first civil war.

The American people, who are very well armed, could easily defeat the government in a civil war and the government knows it. The problem that the American military would have in a civil war is the problem that a china shop owner would have defending the shop from its customers. How do you deal with the customers without wrecking the shop?

One by one. That's the government's only strategy . . . that will work.

If a significant number of Americans motivated by an issue that was important enough decided that it was time to take the government out by force, there is nothing effective that the government could do about it. They might as well pack their bags.

Remember, even Stalin couldn't knock out the Russian Mafia. Where there is a will there is a way and nobody innovates like the American People.

Speculating on such a general proposition is a parlor game. In the current "what if" scenario, I think it is much more likely that the government would be facing segments of its own military forces in a civil war.

This is the Roman paradigm. America is like Rome now in the sense that the oligarchy have lost discipline. They are worried about keeping the American people in line when their focus should be on restoring discipline at and near the top. Not every amoral investment broker in the country should be allowed by hook or by crook into the upper echelon of wealth in America. There is quite a class of people in corporate and banking America who would get their shirts starched in very unpleasant ways by a strong, disciplined oligarchy.

If that happened and a little more "trickle down" actually trickled down we wouldn't be talking about taking on the government military.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


Jesus, you said pretty much everything I wanted to say! Spot on. I want to add one thing.

We'll win no matter what. Rather it be liberty or death. We still win, cause we fought to the death. We'll go down but they're coming with us. In epic fashion too. Listen, call us deluded all you want but it ain't over until it's over. How can you give up before you even start?

Have faith in yourself and maybe you can accomplish great things, lack faith and accomplish nothing.

Something else to consider in this "what if" scenario of civil war/revolution. This won't be about southern states v. northern states. This would most likely play out to be rural v. urban. If you look at the 2012 election maps, most of the red was in the middle of the states and the blue was, primarily located in the cities. Take, for instance, the greate Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The eastern side (Philadelphia) and Alleghany County (Pittsburgh) were blue while the rest of the state was a dark red...Google 2012 Election Results by County.

Now, where does the food come from, Rural or Urban? Seems to me the Fed will have to move quickly to secure the food supply, while simultaneously squashing a revolt and dealing with potential dissertion from the military. What about the water supply? I think it's more likely that the rebels will poison the urban water supplies vice the Fed poisoning the rural supplies. Where does the water supply for cities come from?

If people in the cities begin to starve, then the Fed will need to deal with uprisings there, as well. In a full-blown, revolution scenario, basic services (sanitation, power, phone, and water) could be shut down or very limited to these areas. Attacking the infrastructure will do more damage to the Fed than attacking them directly.

How many Base Commanders (Generals and Admirals) will throw their support to the rebels? How many fighter pilots will defect? Sub Commanders? Every member of the military will be suspected of aiding the rebels.

WMDs will be "off the table" and, as played out in other countries, there could be "no fly zones" set up depending on international support of the revolutionaries. Thus, you could have a situation in which Chinese and Russian aircraft are protecting citizens fighting for Liberty. Revolution can make strange bedfellows!

One last thing, what about splinter groups who will look to carve out their own piece of America?

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by sajuek

 

I'ts moronic drivel from people that have more guns than they have IQ points.

The same people will argue about all our soldiers getting killed in [insert name of foreign country here], but they want to have these same soldiers lined up in their crosshairs?

Any civil war on American soil would also result in a number of opportunist nations stepping in to "help".
Many a faction would even willfully invite said "help"; entirely ignorant of the cost such "help" would result in.

All in all, for the most part, it's loud mouthed morons that have self marginalized themselves because for whatever reason, they can't seem to live by the same laws that everyone else seems to be quite fine and okay with.

edit on 24-2-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Yep and they are too short sighted to even consider why this debate is being fueled.. IF someone can push you into a corner so they can ctahc ya when you are angered, they have you at a weak point.. I think all of ths is to purposefully push folks that way so they will rise up and those who seek chaos will benefit..


It's like the PTBs sure know how to push some folks buttons.. they are so easy to push