The UK'S slave class

reply to post by werewolf99
For a start I haven't bragged about anything, but I will always be happy to relate my story as an example of how it is possible to overcome pretty much anything in the UK if you want it badly enough.
I'm all ears though, which bit of the system do you want to fix exactly?
Healthcare free at the point of need? Welfare benefits? Minimum wage? Working time directive? Access to education for all with interest free loans to fund university courses? Cheap social housing rents? Working tax credits? Business start up assistance? Free school meals for children in low income families? Legal aid for defendants in court? Human rights legislation? What are these terrible things in our society you wish to change?

No-one is truly 'free' in any society. A remote tribe in a jungle will have someone in control, a chief or elders or whatever, some organised leadership will always have to exist to provide the services relevant to the particular society. If I am a slave in the UK, I am personally much happier to be a slave here than anywhere else.
Many people die in the back of container trucks trying to get here each year, does it not make you wonder why?
I am very interested in the specifics you wish changed to overhaul our allegedly oppressive 'system' please feel free to enlighten me and everyone else.

*Edit*
Take your time as well, I'm off to the pub for a few Sunday afternoon pints with my fellow slaves. Thankfully the lord of the manor still allows us some time to socialise with each other. Woe betide us if the master catches us having some fun though, I forgot to cut my own birch twigs in advance of the whipping we would probably get

I would start by abolishing hereditary titles and abolishing the monarchy. Most of our problems really come down from there. Abolish this and most other things would be OK. It is that simple.

reply to post by werewolf99


If abolishing the monarchy would rid the uk of barely veiled racist bleating like you have displayed this weekend, then I would applaud it

reply to post by skalla


Nah, that wouldn't help with rich middle class folk like werewolf - there will always be someone with more money than them so in their minds the world will always be totally infair ....

Originally posted by werewolf99
I would start by abolishing hereditary titles and abolishing the monarchy. Most of our problems really come down from there. Abolish this and most other things would be OK. It is that simple.

After my considered and reasoned response listing many of the facets of organised society in the UK, you dismiss it with mere criticism of hereditary peers and the constitutional monarchy which I also disagree with.
I asked which bits of the 'system' you wish to change and why. The unelected peers and royal family are an [edit]annoying[/edit] irrelevance in my opinion. The less than 1% they cost from our GDP is something which will not affect anything as far as accusations of a slave populace go.

I expected a better response considering your passion from the subject in the OP.
I'm disappointed.

*Edit*
For the record, I do not consider the GDP/Currency/Economy ideas to be particularly real, but if you wish to consider such things in an alternative wider economic slant of slavery I'm of course interested in hearing your opinion.

The whole class system comes from the top down. Most culture historically came from the top down. Without the aristocracy you have a system based on wealth. Wealth can be made and lost. People born with more have an advantage but it really takes a lot of money to be so large that it cannot be wiped out in one generation. In the past this has happened many times.

A system based on wealth would be better. That way there is no limit to how high a person can climb: yes with luck, bad luck can make things very difficult.

But luck is something that is difficult to control.

Originally posted by werewolf99
The whole class system comes from the top down. Most culture historically came from the top down. Without the aristocracy you have a system based on wealth. Wealth can be made and lost. People born with more have an advantage but it really takes a lot of money to be so large that it cannot be wiped out in one generation. In the past this has happened many times.

A system based on wealth would be better. That way there is no limit to how high a person can climb: yes with luck, bad luck can make things very difficult.

But luck is something that is difficult to control.

So you think power should reside in the richest people. It's called feudalism .......

Of course, the children of rich people inherit their wealth. But at least under a wealth based system the Queen wouldn't be regarded as powerful as, er, Roman Abramovich .......

Britain's richest people

Originally posted by werewolf99
The whole class system comes from the top down. Most culture historically came from the top down. Without the aristocracy you have a system based on wealth. Wealth can be made and lost. People born with more have an advantage but it really takes a lot of money to be so large that it cannot be wiped out in one generation. In the past this has happened many times.

A system based on wealth would be better. That way there is no limit to how high a person can climb: yes with luck, bad luck can make things very difficult.

But luck is something that is difficult to control.

A system based on wealth? Isn't that what we have now? and... NO, simply no..

There are no easy answers, or rather the answers are easy it's implementing them that is the hard bit.

What we need is a society based on empathy, where the common good and wellfare of the nation is considered the first most priority rather than money or wealth. Where politicians do their job from the very desire to look after and nurture the people of the nation as a whole.

We need a system where people can get rich and should be rich but are driven by a moral, social desire whereby they give back to the people that helped them become rich in the first place instead of squiralling their cash overseas to avoid tax.

The tax system should be less stick and more carrot also, people should WANT to pay tax to see their own communities and families benefit from them and the taxes should be used to pay for things people really need and want, not wars and weapons.

Sadly these are ideals that will never happen.

Originally posted by werewolf99
Without the aristocracy you have a system based on wealth. Wealth can be made and lost. People born with more have an advantage but it really takes a lot of money to be so large that it cannot be wiped out in one generation. In the past this has happened many times.

A system based on wealth would be better. That way there is no limit to how high a person can climb: yes with luck, bad luck can make things very difficult.

But luck is something that is difficult to control.

Care to explain in more detail?
How do existing historic aristocratic families provide a bar to the aspirations of non-aristocracy such as myself?
I'm begining to wonder which century you think you're living in. Two personal friends of mine have property estate values in excess of one million pounds. They both grew up as skint as me with hand-me-down clothes, second hand birthday presents and recycled bicycles. One reached success through education, the other through blood and sweat while renovating buildings.
How exactly do the aristocracy stop us gaining wealth in the UK?

I have risen and fallen from poverty a couple of times in life, sometimes through life circumstances but also through my own errors of judgement. I'm enjoying the challenge of a new focus in life at the moment and my plan looks forward through the next couple years to an idea I hope to be successful with.
Unelected peers, the constitutional monarchy, aristocratic families and the like have no relevant influence in success or failure of my personal plans. I ask you to explain how their mere existence crushes the dreams somehow of those born in less than wealthy lives?

I am so glad you do not influence the dreams of my own son who is thriving in a state secondary school, looking forward to chasing his own path towards financial success.
Crap parents spoil their childrens success more than aristocratic families ever do these days in my opinion.

If you want to expand more on why the aristocracy ruins the dreams of us slaves I'd love to hear it. Right now I think your argument is looking for reasons to be a victim in this unfair society of hereditary peers and the like.
I agree the constitutional position in our country is something I wish overhauled, but to cry slavery and restricted life aspirations? Sorry but to be blunt I think that is ridiculous and you need to raise your life expectations.

IMO it's the obession with money - how much I have, how much you have ...... that is the root of most of modern society's problems. There's more to life than that. If you'll open your eyes.

Interestingly, people who are poor by our wealth-obsessed western standards are often much happier.

reply to post by AndyMayhew

Totally agree, but having more expendable cash does make life a little easier in this society I happened to be born in.
I disagree with the victim like cries of slavery and the UK society being a place where hard work and effort is pointless because the peasants are kept down. It's not true for an average person with drive and motivation.

reply to post by AndyMayhew
I would say that the poor have much lower expectations.

You are correct about money. A big step towards a more free and fair society is open government. We achieve this by turning the surveillance systems they use on us towards them. Stop them operating under the cloak of secrecy which allows them to abuse the system.

See I'm sticking to the bits like this sweeping statement in the OP:

Social mobility is nothing more than a fable in the UK. Anyone born poor has very little chance of moving up.

Wider discussions about free, fair, moral and just society is of course interesting but the specific claims with emotive terms of slavery and servitude make me wonder if I'm living in a different country.
I call for examples of practical specific crushed dreams for people such as myself born into poor families caused by aristocracy and hereditary peers existing right now in the UK?
Apart from being unable to enjoy the benefits of being born into those families or getting a seat in the House of Lords then I see no other restriction to life success.

The country which I talk of is the UK although defined by the eu as simply a set of economic areas. It is very simple I cannot be king. It does not matter how hard I work or what I achieve this is the fact. It cannot be refuted. It is the reason why those in the UK do not live in a system defined just by wealth: those in the USA live ina very different country. Cash does not necessarily mean class in the UK. I will not be replying again. I have given ample hints to those unintelligent people that although obviously from America still think they can talk about a country which they know nothing about.

Is it really appropriate for people to talk about a country which they do not live, have never lives based upon the fact that it must be like America really because we speak the same language. How it must be to talk about subjects which you know nothing about. I have given ample opportunities for you to stop being part of the thread. But allas your lack of intellect knows no bounds.

It is has been even more funny to watch those who while claiming to be successful can offer no proof at all. I at least mentioned my degree, award won, books wrote: just a sample fo my achievements. While others have nothing to state at all. I understand that your time is less valuable then mine and so have endless time to type twaddle: thinking that if you obstinately do not agree then the last man to type will be the winner. This is the strategy of those whose time means little. I however am not one of those people. I do wish you well with your endless typings and obvious lack of analytical skill.

Please feel free to disagree with me as I know that you cannot understand the difference between disagreement and argument. May I point out that in the future do not talk of others countries based on what you think you have learnt from films or such like. I would like to point out the these little Americans that the world is not an extension of you. All countries are not like yours. Maybe with this understanding we could avoid you small dismal sample making your countrymen look stupid: when in fact you just represent the worst sample.Every country has them, and I hope we can avoid more cognitively dull individuals from many countries representing how lack of intellect knows no bounds.

reply to post by werewolf99
Hi Wolf

SE England. Work in the rail industry. I am a Company Council Union Rep, and Union Branch Chairman. I joined the labour party recently not because I think they are honest but because I intend to help make them honest. I now sit on two labour party committees that are working to formulate labours transport policies. (all unpaid roles BTW). I also have a story I can brag about and feel superior but I don’t as when I see a homeless person I see someone that needs help not a sermon on how good I am

I see no reason why the above matters but you asked. The above does not mean I am correct or know more than anyone else which is why I visit sites such as this to test my beliefs and learn from others

I see your point about the class system and how it makes glass ceiling based on 'breeding' not ability and that is where I differ from you on suggesting wealth be the driver. It should be ability and value to society.

A nurse unfortunately will never get paid their worth but what they give our society is beyond a cash value. Also EVERY society is made up of winners and losers and I believe a society should be judged not just on how we reward the winners but how we treat the losers.

I linked to the wiki on slavery as a discussion point per the OP but did the poster that wanted to tell me how in control he was ask if that is what I believed? Nope he told me how in control he was and what a whinning victim I was.

Are we slaves? I doubt it in the true sense of slavery. Have we progressed past serfdom? I believe no and as you say with the class system in place in the UK now we will remain so.

But unless this thread starts to address the OP as I wrote above I'm done as I find no value in entering a pi$$ing contest or an ego stroking exercise.

Originally posted by colin42
I linked to the wiki on slavery as a discussion point per the OP but did the poster that wanted to tell me how in control he was ask if that is what I believed? Nope he told me how in control he was and what a whinning victim I was.

I suggested you were of a victim mentality unable or unwilling to see the opportunities available to us in the UK. There have been no restrictions in this thread preventing you from debating any perceived flaws in my assertions.

Are we slaves? I doubt it in the true sense of slavery. Have we progressed past serfdom? I believe no and as you say with the class system in place in the UK now we will remain so.

Royal family and aspirations of becoming head of state aside (where I agree with you and your mate in the OP) I again ask you to explain such wild claims of serfdom and slavery or servitude with specific or practical examples?

But unless this thread starts to address the OP as I wrote above I'm done as I find no value in entering a pi$$ing contest or an ego stroking exercise.

Lamely you run to the ego assertions again, with no substance to expand on your perception. I have stuck to the OP, feel free to quote me wherever you feel I have not attempted to make a point where I am explaining how I feel the OP is wrong. This is a debate, but if you do not enjoy detailed and specific discussion you are free to avoid it of course.
You intimated earlier that you had left the thread, I'm surprised you changed your mind, but happy to read your opinions on the question of slave class Britons in the UK. I think it's rubbish, but await your response to address it in a considered, detailed, and honest reply.

Originally posted by werewolf99
It is very simple I cannot be king. It does not matter how hard I work or what I achieve this is the fact. It cannot be refuted.

So that's it? You can't be king, neither can I or my son but I do not cry slavery. I agree that the constitutional monarchy system of government in our country is unfair and unjust when considering the head of state, but I think perceptions of slavery are lame and smack of victim and entitlement mentality.
If you have specific examples to suggest where you think I'm wrong I'm all ears though?

I don't want to be King!

But, having been born in a council house in a small market town in Suffolk (my father, was literally, the postman) from a family of farm labourers going back to the Norman conquest, I now own my own business and am Trustee of a respected Scottish charity. I am the master of my own destiny. Does that make me a slave? I think not

reply to post by grainofsand

You intimated earlier that you had left the thread, I'm surprised you changed your mind, but happy to read your opinions on the question of slave class Britons in the UK.

I answered a fair request from wolf which I note you have not. On the other hand you again show no intention of discussing the OP and just want an argument.

As I told you before I am not interested as you appear to have nothing to say that takes this discussion forwards.

reply to post by AndyMayhew
Ah, another lovely example of someone born in a less than wealthy background who has achieved a socio-economic status higher than was inherited. I guess there will be cries of egotistical proclamations from the ones who view themselves as servants or slaves now.

Pity they cannot provide examples of specific cases (outside of being head of state or unelected lords) where their dreams were crushed solely due to the existence of such wealthy historical families.
I would be interested in exploring the debate if any specific assertions were made here...the lack of such detail makes me think such arguments have no substance.