The Varieties of ATS Religious Experience; or, Variations on a Theme

reply to post by MamaJ

What else ya gonna do for all of eternity? Learn how to "be within" the experience.

ok lets assume the we have all eternity.
Now,
isnt it an earthly/material assumption that learning is a linear process?
Exactly opposite to enlightenment which is a like a flash and its all known.
Knowledge is not memory, its understanding.
Learning by physical experiences is one of the many ways to learn not the only and for sure not the best.
The idea of many lives/all eternity is build with the assumption of using only this linear way of learning.

reply to post by logical7

Learning by physical experiences is one of the many ways to learn not the only and for sure not the best.

No? What, do you think, then, log7, is the "best" way to learn?

My experience as a human and as a parent is that people do learn the best by doing. By living it out.

This is one of the things I think is wrong with, for example, insisting on celibacy for clergy....
one cannot know what it is to TRULY LOVE someone until they become a parent.

AfterInfinity talked about women returning to abusers because they "loved" them. That's not "love." That's subjugation and hope - especially for a lover who thinks they can "fix" or "heal" their beloved by just loving them enough...
and THAT I learned from a series of experiences in which I thought I 'loved' guys who were terrible to me, and not nice at all. Not just once, but THREE TIMES, and it was a disaster each time.

That is "obsession" or "need", but it isn't "love."

reply to post by wildtimes

No? What, do you think, then, log7, is the "best" way to learn? My experience as a human and as a parent is that people do learn the best by doing. By living it out.

for us the linear way is the most convinient. The question is learning what?
We may actually get addicted to learning this way, and so the desire to have many lives,
but the question is, is the knowledge we seek required or not? i need to know how to behave but dont really need to know the personal lives of celebrities.
The best way is learning the important things first.
The knowledge is all available with the source and so there should be a desire to meet the maker. Isnt it conflicting that we want to meet after becoming perfect and the desire to be perfect makes us desire to delay that meeting.

That is "obsession" or "need", but it
isn't "love."

yes many things are just labelled as love, i believe the philosophy that a person learns spirituality/love/compassion best by being with people/in relationship/family.

reply to post by logical7

The best way is learning the important things first.

And what would you suggest the important things are?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

The best way is learning the important things first.

And what would you suggest the important things are?

according to me, the first is self-knowledge. Reflect on your own thoughts and actions and find the why. The more honest you are the more faster you'l get what the important things are.

reply to post by logical7

according to me, the first is self-knowledge. Reflect on your own thoughts and actions and find the why. The more honest you are the more faster you'l get what the important things are.

In my experience, no one appreciates true honesty. They only want as much honesty as is convenient for them.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

according to me, the first is self-knowledge. Reflect on your own thoughts and actions and find the why. The more honest you are the more faster you'l get what the important things are.

In my experience, no one appreciates true honesty. They only want as much honesty as is convenient for them.

yes, but its not about being honest for the benefit or approval of others, its about being honest to oneself and yes some actually are not completely honest to themselves as that makes living a life contrary to the self knowledge very difficult.

Hi, wildtimes

Sorry to be late to the party. Thank you for the kind U2U; I got behind on my messages.

First, William James' Varieties of Religious Experience is, just as you say, a great book. There's a lot in Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy, too. Even if somebody isn't inclined to agree with Huxley, there's still a lot of information about conceptual similarities among religions across time and space. Also, even though the title sounds lurid, Bucke's Cosmic Consciousness has much comparative religion in it (and was one of James' sources).

www.sacred-texts.com...

Compared with all of that, my own story is fairly conventional. I was born into a Catholic family of moderate religious fervor. I grew away from that church over the span of a few years, starting when I was about 11 or 12, and being completely estranged by 15 or 16.

I have ended up being a classic agnostic, that is, I do not profess any god, nor profess that there are no gods, because the evidence and argument available are insufficient for me to form an opinion one way or the other. As it happens, the beginning of my estrangement from Christianity was to think a very agnostic idea, that the basis for belief in modern religion was identical to the basis for the belief in ancient pagan religions, and they can't both be right.

Unfortunately for having a punchy autobiography, I can't say that I became an agnostic with just that one thought. It did loosen the hold of my cradle religion, but the next few years were an incoherent mess . There is some irony in that, too. So many people who aren't agnostics accuse us of being "fence sitters." But the only time when I ever was "fence sitting" was during those early adolescent years when I wasn't an agnostic, nor anything else specific at all.

No fireworks, then, and no confidence that I have any special insight about "reconciliation with the great unknown," beyond being aware that for me, it is unknown, but I haven't lost all hope that it is, possibly, great.

S&F for an outstanding idea for a thread.

reply to post by eight bits


Hi, thanks!
I will check out Burke's book, that looks interesting.

One thing I've noticed via this thread - and by just reading the related forums in general - is that a lot of us who were raised in a typical "Christian" household (meaning, church-going but not obsessive) first had doubts about the credibility of what we heard at church (or Sunday School, or both) as latent kids - ages 10, 11, 12 -- and by mid teens (seems 16 is pretty common) had drifted away.

Interesting.

The other major refrain is those who were raised with no religion becoming fervent in their early adulthood. I have a fairly large extended family - my mom had 4 siblings, all of whom had children - and it's also interesting to see how my numerous cousins have developed their spiritual beliefs. My mom was the eldest, and was even as a kid intensely interested in religion and took her little self to church every week. He parents weren't particularly into it, and her two brothers (2 and 3 years younger) I don't think were much into it either. Then the first of her two little sisters refused to go along with Mom's wish that they get involved, but her youngest sister did, and continued to be part of the church to this day. (Mom now says, "I'm to blame for that." when she references the youngest's ongoing churchiness...lol. )

Anyway, each of my cousins went a particular path, too, all different. My brothers and I, and our kids as well.

We're just now starting the fourth generation (I'm a great-aunt twice now! ACK!) and I'll be interested to see how the family continues to evolve as times change along with all of us.


Thanks again for coming - I hope the thread will be one of those that new members can reference and add their own stories to as well. All of our contributions, I think, add to the depth of the forum. I'm glad it caught on!

wildtimes

... doubts about the credibility of what we heard at church (or Sunday School, or both) as latent kids - ages 10, 11, 12 -- and by mid teens (seems 16 is pretty common) had drifted away.

Interesting.

The other major refrain is those who were raised with no religion becoming fervent in their early adulthood.

It's probably a good thing that humans question what they recieve in early life, pretty much as soon as it is possible to make a good job of it. Also, it's probably a good thing that they straighten away in early adulthood how they're going to face up to life. At least until middle age brings its own crises.

In atheist Fantasyland, human beings, like geese, get imprinted with whatever they first encounter. On the other hand, it's easy to find atheists who tell stories about their own personal teenaged or young-adult liberation. Sometimes, it's the same atheist telling both stories, the goose fantasy and their own refutation of it.

I don't know what the point of mixing those two stories is. Is such a person casting themselves as some sort of hero? It doesn't matter. I think there are seasons to life. The seems to be a late spring and early summer decade or so where "thinking great thoughts" is both possible for the first time and not too costly in energy needed for more practical things.

So, great thoughts get thunk, then you have to go to work .

reply to post by wildtimes


I had a few cbt sessions and something happened. I remember very clearly telling my therapist that something strange was happening and said it was something 'religious, maybe??' I didn't know but was having amazing insights that were stunning. That was the beginning and that was 20 years ago.
The world changed and I felt that I had been reborn - I could find nothing in me that was there before - I had gone.
I know now that the 'me' died. It is weird because growing up I had in mind that I would die when I was 26 and now I know that I did.

When the person dies life reveals itself. The person is the baggage that must be released.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Wow, thanks for this contribution!
I've often wondered what was "up" with you. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is what you're meaning by cbt, correct?

I believe therapy is a fabulous experience, and there's not one person alive who can't benefit from it (I say this as a person who's undergone therapy with at least 4 different clinicians at various times throughout my adult life, and also as a clinician myself, which career I got into in my 40s. I didn't last very long professionally, as my temperament makes it impossible for me to just "leave it at work". People's pain and struggles affected me to the point of making me "unavailable" or "sucked-in" and exhausted while with my own family. Doh!)

reply to post by wildtimes


I am watching Unmani who is explaining what is really happening and when what I am is understood (know thyself) the world turns into the kingdom.

I cannot recommend these two videos enough.
Part one youtu.be...
Part two youtu.be...

Watch any Unmani video for amazing insights into the true self.

I would like to participate in this thread but it appears to be too late. The last post here was a month ago. Great thread though I enjoyed reading all of the paths others have traveled to get where they are today. My journey is much like some of what I read here. Thanks for posting this thread!!

reply to post by mplsfitter539


Nonono!!! It's not too late!! (Ever!)
I would love it for you to participate. It's meant to be a one-stop shop for members to see what the positions are for each of us who prowl the boards!

Go for it, please!



(The last post was two days ago.. )

reply to post by wildtimes


Oooops I don't know why I thought last post was a month ago sorry about that.

Well I will just jump past all the details leading up to the present day as to not bog down this post. A bit over 3 years ago I began questioning what it truly is that I believe. I was raised in a Baptist church and said some ceremonial prayer with my mother at 9 years old and proclaimed my salvation ever since. My search lead me to a lot of science but in the end science still upheld my faith in God. Unlike mainstream Christendom I have come to except what is coined as Universal Restoration. As far as I know it is not a denomination but instead simply a basis of faith. It would be easier to list the things I no longer believe to be true than to try to explain the difference between mainstream and UR. I no longer believe any doctrines or creeds prescribed by the various denominations which fall under the mother church of Catholicism. To name a few is the trinity, x-mas, easter, and moving the biblical Sabbath to Sunday. Other than this I am a firm believer in the Word of God which is not inclusive of the traditions of man or creeds agreed upon by a majority vote between men with ulterior motives of control over people.

UR is the belief that God in His time is going to reconcile all of His creation. God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world (not just a few self proclaimed "Christians") IMO God has all the time it will take to draw all men to Himself either now or on the other side of the grave. Hell is a lie at least the way it is taught in orthodoxy. I cannot reconcile the excepted view of a God who will love unto death and then hate and torture after death. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit. There will be no false confessions because everyone in due time will be convinced.

Anyway I said I would try to keep it short so I will end hear for now. I could possibly expand on it later using the edit mode I suppose.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


But your beliefs contradict the very same source from which your god is taken! This is the crap that confuses the bejeezus out of me. How can you say there is one truth, one way, and then end up with 400 different denominations of the same exact truth? That's like 400 different organizations harping on about their different flavor of gravity.

But again, your beliefs contradict the source of your god.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


You can edit a post for about 3 hours (give or take - depends on the day! ), after that it's set unless mods edit for you.
But you can (and I hope you will) give us the earlier details, and expand some more.

What, for example, do you consider 'the Word of God' to be?

Oh, and maybe you read 2-3-13 and thought it meant Feb 3? Yeah, we use the 'more sophisticated European notation' for the date. Not as hard to switch to as metric vs Imperial, or celsius vs farenheit, though!

Originally posted by wildtimes
Oh, and maybe you read 2-3-13 and thought it meant Feb 3? Yeah, we use the 'more sophisticated European notation' for the date. Not as hard to switch to as metric vs Imperial, or celsius vs farenheit, though!

That's actually a setting somewhere that you can change, I thought it defaulted to US standard though (I use the DD-MM-YYYY setting myself, though my influence is Canada, not Europe )

And, yes, it's a setting. Go here: www.abovetopsecret.com... (or click "TOOLS+" in the toolbar) and there's a field that says "Date Format (mm/dd/yyyy, dd/mm/yy, etc):" that you can modify.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
But again, your beliefs contradict the source of your god.

Why do you always assume that everyone is a Fundamentalist and has no source for insights other than a literal reading of the Bible?