The Lost Civilizations of North America?

Originally posted by andriod
Well with North America including Canada, I didn't notice anything about Canada here but I did find a piece of info about a ancient city along the north shore of Lake Ontario. Also in the page they mention a documentary called "Curse of the Axe' in which Ancient or midevil Spaniards had pre-contact before the Early Europeans. The Mantle people or Wendat(Huron) lived in the area for about 30 years, that's a really short time compared to other ancient civilizations.

The Mantle Site was not a separate civilisation in and of itself...it was a large Huron/Wendat settlement dating to protohistoric times, about 1500 CE. The axe in question has been traced back to the Basque who were very likely at Red Bay and other maritime sites before Columbus. But the Mantle Site is notable for its size, rather than any other cultural distinction. Personally, I know of a larger site north-east of there.

Originally posted by andriod
Oak Island is another North American anomoly in that the entire island appears to be manmade.

I've been there...no it doesn't.


A quick edit to include kudos to Slayer for another interesting thread. Lot's to see in North America, even after discounting the crazies. Here's a spot worth noting...Peterborough Petroglyphs

Excellent thread, Slayer, as usual.

I've not had time to watch the vids, so I don't know if the Louisiana mounds are mentioned or not. If not, you might want to look into that information as part of your research as they are older than the Pyramids or Stonehenge.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


I don't remember saying anything about Oak Island, but please do tell! As for the topic at hand it does fit the criteria as being lost, even though its the site and not the people. Maybe I should have used settlement.

Originally posted by andriod
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

I don't remember saying anything about Oak Island, but please do tell! As for the topic at hand it does fit the criteria as being lost, even though its the site and not the people. Maybe I should have used settlement.

Oak Island? Forgive me...different poster and I got confuddled in building the post.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
Oak Island is another North American anomoly in that the entire island appears to be manmade.

Here's the straight poop on that...Oak Island

Back to the Mantle Site...it was lost as most FN sites are...overgrown after abandonment, then rediscovered as agricultural practices ploughed up artifacts. And again lost as urban sprawl devours those selfsame fields. We are lucky that Williamson was able to do a salvage operation and attract the interest of a film maker, cuz now it's a subdivision.

reply to post by andriod
For you Canadians, Curse of the Axe will be on History TV, Friday March 1, from 8-10.

I Greet You!
I have this relative, who has since passed away. Again there are some Native Americans working with people who are professionally working on the past and the U.S. Government.
There was some finds in Lake Superior that found some ruins:
Stonehenge in Lake Superior

And my relative was a brother to A Congressional Medal Of Honor Recipient Named Mitchell RedCloud Jr., in our extended family relationships they are our nephews. Well its bout this non-Native American who was claiming that a area along the Mississippi River was the garden of Eden.
Garden of Eden

I remember some stories of a road, with stones under water that they believed was used in the days when other Nations come to this area to mine copper, The mined copper near Lake Superior. There was many qualities to this metal copper. I am myself researching such things, like Effigy mounds in Canada, shaped like a muskrat and other formations.
Pretty interesting stuff and no doubt the way the Government silenced data in the early 1990's makes it more difficult to find anything to findings.
Like for example, not long ago there was a flood along the Root River and the Mississippi River and one day was walking along them hills and stumbled on to some caves, and by the way they were positioned I knew they were sacred area's, was going to let others know, but I know they will be closed off to anyone but U.S. Government. In this cave was drawings on the wall and had some very big skeltons wrapped up and in a sitting position to the east and other star constellations.

Originally posted by chachonee
Pretty interesting stuff and no doubt the way the Government silenced data in the early 1990's makes it more difficult to find anything to findings.
Like for example, not long ago there was a flood along the Root River and the Mississippi River and one day was walking along them hills and stumbled on to some caves, and by the way they were positioned I knew they were sacred area's, was going to let others know, but I know they will be closed off to anyone but U.S. Government. In this cave was drawings on the wall and had some very big skeltons wrapped up and in a sitting position to the east and other star constellations.

Might I suggest why it's a good idea for the government to keep a lid on such things?
For Sale

In Ontario, this practice is against the law, and by the sounds of it...Mississippi River is Federal, and looting is prohibited on Federal lands. As I go through artifact selling websites, first thing that strikes me is the amount of sacred material (all artifacts are sacred, but some are sacred-sacred, an elder told me) that is not even supposed to be photographed. Let alone sold and swapped like baseball cards.

If this cave you found is as you say, it ought to be protected, too, as well as researched.

Originally posted by Plotus
Of course there's accounts by the Mormons in their 'Book of Mormon' which some subscribe to. Dated later in time however.
Thats not to say that I subscribe to this, in fact I had always believed it a work of fiction originally written by a Dr. Anton as a Novel.

But I'm always keen to see if recent discoveries happen to correspond with any LDS claims relating to their ancient peoples that were said to exist.

edit on 24-2-2013 by Plotus because: (no reason given)

Then the good Doctor did a superb job (in my opinion). It's all up for discussion but as you'll no doubt know, it's perhaps a personal/subjective thing. And as Pete M once asked, "What if it is true?".....

many places are underwater now. many people do not notice it

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


I Greet You!
I understand what you are saying, same time respect for the dead is more important. I have always been interested in caves, this one was very large and fascinating to walk around and just see them paintings on the wall. Most you see on the internet look like some child or someone who is not capable of drawing a simple circle. The drawings i saw were very good and the colors. They were not all over the place so it seemed like a few people if not just one was responsible for the painting. Some things that stuck out was the way they were drawn in some type of timeline. Many constellations and planets were easy for me to understand, and I am not expert but I do know where certain stars are, like the ones that seem not to move. Pictures not any type of language, and did not seem to be any type of symbols. I did not know about any burial remains till I fasted there one spring. Not like i could ask anyone what these pictures meant. After reading many things on the internet of how S.O. P., standard operating procedure go and made me think, maybe these sacred places were just for me to find, like I do not believe in coincidence or luck.
After I fasted at the first site I found, me and my family went to this place where i was told to go, to learn and see who it is i am dealing with, that is another awesome story. The River of Lights, known to non-wonk-shiks(Native American) as the Upper Iowa River.
One thing that i found out, this person who drew the North Star, was not Polaris at that time, and I had made a friend who study's the cosmos a Astrophysicist and that was not chance either.
Now a days, they have sites of all types, even one that has many stories that are fun to read, but way different than the ones my Grandfather interpreted on the reel to reel tapes. Hočąk (Winnebago) Mythology
Hočąk

I am researching as much as I can, not for recognition but for my children and theirs. I get into these threads and very interesting to read other's interpretations of the past. There are many theories and many educated people who no doubt realize the way education is looked at today. Not like some higher power or God come to here and now and started to write books, people wrote books on theories that are a brought before their peers and voted on, if the majority of the peers agreed to pick out the best sounding theory and then it is final, and accepted amongst all their colleagues and in turn teach these theories until something better comes along. I know there is way more to that but how I make it for my own-self to understand.

Most people know, that if something important is found, let say, goes against the grain of the current theory of the day, then it is lost. Like a conspiracy or something. Ennit?

Greetings I enjoy your posts on this thread (and others) very much.

Yes, respect for the dead is much more important. I thank you for keeping the location you found a secret; for honoring the sanctity of the site and for preserving the history. Thank you for the link, too.

Originally posted by chachonee
Most people know, that if something important is found, let say, goes against the grain of the current theory of the day, then it is lost. Like a conspiracy or something. Ennit?

Absolutely. It's likely one of the greatest conspiracies of all, but most can't accept that concept, much less the buried truth.

Originally posted by chachonee
I understand what you are saying, same time respect for the dead is more important....
Most people know, that if something important is found, let say, goes against the grain of the current theory of the day, then it is lost. Like a conspiracy or something. Ennit?

I agree that respect for the dead is paramount. My concern is that there are those who think nothing of desecrating a sacred site and selling grave goods on ebay. So, protection from looters is important, too.

As to conspiracies, I would add that in this jurisdiction, the former patriarchal nature of archaeology is undergoing some serious changes. First Nations students are learning the science in universities. Others are trained by professionals so that they can dialogue on behalf of their band councils. Stuff is no longer swept up and stashed in a museum...never to be seen again by descendents. Consultation with the First Nations is mandatory. Screw that up and you lose your licence to work in the Province.

Further, the myth of academic archaeology suppressing new knowledge is just that...a myth. Universities are spitting out lots of eager young faces that are itching to make their marks by coming up with the next great discovery. While there are certainly those in the old guard who are not happy to see their particular academic foundation consigned to the trash heap, plenty of others embrace the changes as part of the living excitement of the field of archaeology. One thing...big thing...gotta prove it.

Couple of years ago, I heard an elder talk recite his oral tradition that his people were in North America before the end of the last ice age. Crazy talk...but looks like he was right, and that paradigm shift is playing out right this very day. So, not trying to derail the thread, but trying to fill in a few gaps in understanding the very real quest for knowledge about the North American past.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Hi there JohnnyC

Couple of years ago, I heard an elder talk recite his oral tradition that his people were in North America before the end of the last ice age. Crazy talk...but looks like he was right, and that paradigm shift is playing out right this very day

Which tribe did the elder belong to? There is a story among the southern piute, they lived on the east slope of the sierra Nevada in Nevada and California, were a great chief gathered warriors from the surrounding bands to go north and fight. They travelled to the valley of the snake river, but could go no further as their way was blocked by a wall of ice " as high as the sky".
That facet of the story would put it at least 14-16k years ago for there to be glaciation of that magnitude.
There are a couple versions of that same story. In one ,crow finds a gap or crack in the ice and they go on to fight the un named adversary. In another shoshone version they go north to fight the red haired giants

Although some tribes are fairly recent arrivals from Asia, some as recently as 8k years ago, others have been here for a very very long time.
In the old world ,linguistic diversity is an indicator of age depth, the more variations of languages there are the older the occupancy. The new world held 2/3 of the worlds languages, and California half of that.
Here in central cal, the yokuts evolved nearly thirty different languages. They have been here for a very long time, the Witt site in fresno county yeilded a human femur nearly 16k years old.

I have come to believe that at least one of the native American lineages is truely indiginous, they evolved in the new world into modern humans, likely from Asian homo erectus, who made a very early entrance into the new world.

Originally posted by punkinworks10
Which tribe did the elder belong to? There is a story among the southern piute, they lived on the east slope of the sierra Nevada in Nevada and California, were a great chief gathered warriors from the surrounding bands to go north and fight. They travelled to the valley of the snake river, but could go no further as their way was blocked by a wall of ice " as high as the sky".

The elder I refer to is Anishnaabe, and the story of the ice wall was similar. I have also encountered a comperable version in Elaine Dewar's book Bones: Discovering the First Americans. This is actually a book well worth reading. It is written by a knowledgeable journalist, and while I first heard it referred to as dubious, its observations are gaining more and more credence in the field. I was amused when reading it as I recognised an un-named source as a friend of mine.

I have come to believe that at least one of the native American lineages is truely indiginous, they evolved in the new world into modern humans, likely from Asian homo erectus, who made a very early entrance into the new world.

That I don't buy, but nothing is impossible. A physical anthropologist, I am not.

In the old world ,linguistic diversity is an indicator of age depth, the more variations of languages there are the older the occupancy. The new world held 2/3 of the worlds languages, and California half of that.

Called 'glottochronology', it has been applied to the New World as well. Just off the top of my head, I can say that the dates generated certainly come in much older than Clovis, though I can't say how they compare to mDNA and other genetic tools. We live in changing times.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Thanks for the book tip, I will read it.
I know the idea of early homonid entry into the new world is a hard sell, but it helps make sense of some anomolously old sites, such as calico hills, valsequillo, and the tenatively identified as auchulean tools found in Arizona.
One of my favorite blog sites is
anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org...
Even if one doesn't agree with Dr. Dziebel's ideas he has complied a wonderful of published peer reviewed papers across a wide spectrum of disciplines.

Such as this one about archaic skeletal morphologys amongst native Americans.

anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org...

The authors identify the morphological features that set Longlin and Maludong apart from modern humans. Among them is supraorbital torus. The authors mention that supraorbital torus is very rare in recent human populations and becomes more frequent among Pleistocene humans. But it’s precisely among American Indians that we find examples of supraorbital torus. Marta Lahr (“Patterns of Modern Human Diversification: Implications for Amerindian Origins,” Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 38 (2005): 163-198) identified this feature in 8% of Fuegians. 57% of Fuegians in her sample had brow ridges. Paleoindian skulls such as Lagoa Santa and Jalisco also have well-developed ridges.

reply to post by punkinworks10
Sounds interesting. I promise to look into the links you provided and report back. Right now I'm tracking down FN trailways on the north shore of Lake Ontario. Wish me luck...lol.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

Sounds interesting. I promise to look into the links you provided and report back. Right now I'm tracking down FN trailways on the north shore of Lake Ontario. Wish me luck...lol.

Sweet,
I have walked and ridden many miles of native californian " highways".
I actually brought back a historic section of trans sierra trade trail. The miwok and mono(western shoshone) would meet with piutes from the east slope of the sierra to trade acorns for obsidian and salt. I personally re-cut several miles of trail from a place called shuteye peak to browns meadow.
When the first mountain men came into California, in the 1830's they followed this trade trail from Nevada into central cal.
The first white person to lay eyes on yosemite valley was Joseph walker, walker lake in Nevada is named after him , he and a small group of men made their way from Virginia to califoriana , in search of wild horses.
They. crossed the crest and made thier way through the sierra via the san Joaquin canyon, one of the deepest river canyons in the world, and crossed over to the merced river drainage and the south rim of yosemite valley , where they were the first documented Americans to see the valley.
If you can find it Joseph walkers biography,'" The Westering Man" is an amazing read.
One thing I have found to be very interesting is that there is an old gold rush era trail to a place called " Devil's Gulch" , that drops into a very remote canyon that feeds the south fork of the merced.
It is very near there that local miwok legend says that " Yayali the cannibal giant " lives.
I used to associate Yayali with bigfoot, but now I have come to believe that the Yayali story is a composite, because Yayali is attributed to red hair and being a giant. And we see this association in many western NA tales.
That idea of a red haired giant people is so prevalent in californian mythology it has to have a basis in reality.

Originally posted by punkinworks10

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Right now I'm tracking down FN trailways on the north shore of Lake Ontario. Wish me luck...lol.

Sweet,
I have walked and ridden many miles of native californian " highways".

I wish I could say I am doing this on horseback. I am riding the internet, instead, scoping out source materials for a project I am working on. All the actual pathways have been paved/ploughed/developed by now, so the issue is kinda moot for me...though I might be able to work out a rationale to do some shovel tests pits when I'm through.

Getting back to the thread, civilisation is something of a subjective term, and when I look at these old trade routes which spanned the continent before the Europeans dropped by, and sophisticated concepts like the Iroquois "Great Law of Peace" - well, it's tough to cast them in any less of a light than the builders of Cahokia. Further, it's my belief that the Mississippian cultures fell into decline when the worker bees of that society could no longer convince themselves that their efforts were of any personal value. The Spanish report that the elite of the last Mississippian cultures of the Southeast referred to the 'lesser-born' as something they translated to "Stinkards".

In a world as lush and rich in foodstuffs as North America was...who'd take that crap? I figure they melted back into the forests and let their priestly class go it alone. Sounds like a pretty civilised decision to me.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck



I most certainly agree with you on the civilization comment.
One thing I find fascinating is how agriculture spreads fairly quickly and early into the gulf region , the south east and south west, but took nearly 3000 years to reach the northern tribes and not did take hold in California at all.
I also find it interesting that development of culture in gulf/ river area parallels development in mesoamerica, where you have an early egalitarian culture that trans forms into a highly stratified society, with clear cut delineation between classes and a powerful religious class. And just as in mesoamerica eventually the working classes revolted and they abandoned the towns.
After reading Cabeza de Vaca's journal, I was amazed at how densely populated the region was, one commentary on it remarked that the region was likely nearly at holding capacity, and that the population was on its way to a catastrophic collapse, even if the Spaniards hadn't shown up.
Also not all of the cultures in the region were as civilized as others, the jungles along the Texas coast were home to some really disagreeable tribes, a couple of which were practicing cannibals.

Cool