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Well, let's look at what you said earlier: It’s difficult to find what separates, if anything, one form of dogmatism over the other. This need to promote one's doctrine as superior is merely a plight of petty vanity, one I no longer wish to take part in.
Your words. You'd have us believe you're above the fray - and yet, here you are...promoting your views, pointing out that how others choose to define themselves or express themselves is somehow beneath you. You're here defending your banner, your religiosity and your dignity - but you can't seem to do it without judging everyone else
Indifferent to religion - give me a freaking break :-)
Please do explain - how is convincing not proselytizing? How does one 'convince' anyone that atheism works? And then, finally - why do you want to convince anyone of anything? What is this indifference of which you speak
Well, since you do acknowledge the differences, you should also factor in that here in the trenches - being indifferent is not a luxury we can afford. If we don't speak up - we live by the laws of the religious
think better :-)
So if i understand the OP properly. It is pretty much saying.. when someone confronts you and belittle you for not believing in their god or any god...
Yes I cannot deny that, except you're still arguing about deities, something you know doesn't exist.
This century is probably the first when Atheist are talking back. and It seems appalling because religious had the monopoly on their stance for thousands of years. so when there is an opposite opinion, and there is no laws to prosecute them or hang them, so they see it as something truly evil they needed to be stopped.
When someone asks us: "Are you atheist?" rather than say yes, we should say "No, I'm not religious," thereby cleansing ourselves all stigma that the label 'atheist' carries with it, eliminating thousands of years of baggage, assumptions, misrepresentations, and misdeeds performed by other atheists that come with such a label.
I'm not arguing about deities. I haven't brought them up - not deities or religion - that's all on you
I'm arguing against your OP
Originally posted by logical7
I am confused as to why my words got such an intense response.
But as long as I'm here LesMisanthrope - what's the point of your OP?
I'm still wondering
(humor my friend - and there, there)
It's tough to describe, but I can better define what I am not more-so than what I am; and by observing other atheists, I am not an atheist.
I hope this helps a little bit. Maybe not.
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Why is atheism becoming politicized, persecuted, idealized, more and more structured and thus increasingly fanatical, when all it amounts to is the completely irrelevant personal choice in whether one believes in a deity or not?
Source
Discrimination against atheists in the United States occurs in legal, personal, social, and professional contexts. Some American atheists compare their situation to the discrimination faced by ethnic minorities, LGBT communities, and women. "Americans still feel it's acceptable to discriminate against atheists in ways considered beyond the pale for other groups," asserted Fred Edwords of the American Humanist Association. However, other atheists reject these comparisons, arguing that while atheists may face disapproval they have not faced significant oppression or discrimination.
In the United States, six state constitutions officially include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early nineteenth century.
As I 'proselytized' earlier, although I was hoping to leave it up to interpretation, why don't we instead step away from this dogmatism and show that believing in a deity or not is completely unnecessary, nor is being religious about it, and that one can simply leave that mentality behind in favor of something more practical?
Yes, by definition, I am an atheist. But I don't wish to align myself with the dogmatic expressions, the billboards, the maliciousness, the nationalism, the idealism, the stigma, and the group-think. So I simply refuse the label
It's tough to describe, but I can better define what I am not more-so than what I am; and by observing other atheists, I am not an atheist.
Really, all I wanted to do was share my opinions, observations and conclusions in regards to an ever-growing movement.
Why is atheism becoming politicized, persecuted, idealized, more and more structured and thus increasingly fanatical, when all it amounts to is the completely irrelevant personal choice in whether one believes in a deity or not?
We had met in a private room because Johnson worried that anywhere else in the town, people might overhear us and be offended by her godlessness. No wonder she often feels alone in her non-belief. But Johnson is far from unique. As I found out when I travelled across the US last year, atheists live in isolation and secrecy all over the country. In a nation that celebrates freedom of religion like no other, freedom not to be religious at all can be as hard to exercise as the right to swim the Atlantic.
According to The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, one in five American households profess no religious affiliation. That can't be too surprising to anyone who understands human nature or historical trends. A prosperous society built upon the back of the very values espoused in the Judeo-Christian worldview inevitably yields to satisfaction, complacency and arrogance -- the belief that our material possessions, our comforts, our good fortune are all the result of our own hands. Soon it's more than just not "needing" God for our provision. Man rebels against Him, and is offended by the mere suggestion of His authority. This culminates in an inevitable downward slouch that has accompanied so many great civilizations of the past. So it appears to be with us.
Granted, the number of "nones," as these trendy hipsters like to call themselves, is not overwhelming, but it's certainly higher than it should be if we were still a humble and rational people. The inversion of those two principles (humility and rationality) is one of the most stunning things about the atheist. They claim to be people of reason, yet eschew and despise its very foundation. They fail to grasp that apart from the eternal consistency provided by the biblical God, they would have absolutely no basis for reason at all.
As I 'proselytized' earlier, although I was hoping to leave it up to interpretation, why don't we instead step away from this dogmatism and show that believing in a deity or not is completely unnecessary, nor is being religious about it, and that one can simply leave that mentality behind in favor of something more practical?
Atheism has a long history. Names such as Giordono Bruno, Vanini and Socrates remind me of the stigma the label atheist once had. Atheist was a derogatory term thrown on those the church deemed heretical and blasphemous. It comes with certain historical baggage which can be used against the one who bears it.
I just don't see the logical reason behind accepting the label in the first place.
Yes, by definition, I am an atheist. But I don't wish to align myself with the dogmatic expressions, the billboards, the maliciousness, the nationalism, the idealism, the stigma, and the group-think. So I simply refuse the label (assuming that's possible), the history and the need to meet the demands of that label.
Do you wish to share some suggestions? Maybe there's a better way to do without the religiosity (for lack of a better term) involved in defending one's label?
I think it's a natural response to oppression, criticism, and discrimination. I don't join ANY movement or cause, but I do understand those who do. It's natural for a person who's being ridiculed, to band together with those of like mind (or who agree on one thing), to justify one's position and basically not feel alone in the world. These are human beings, after all. With the same vulnerabilities and frailties as everyone else.
It SEEMS like you're asking other atheists to join your branch of atheism: Those who are atheists, but don't take the label...
You're just generalizing. Because atheists come in ALL shapes and sizes (metaphorically speaking), You're assuming that atheists are made up of the militant and outspoken atheists who make the billboards. But those are the few...
I am a woman. But I don't wear makeup, heels or dresses. I am not "feminine". I don't shave, I don't get mani/pedis or use "product" on my hair. I employ logic FAR more than emotion. I live with four dogs in the high desert on a farm, which makes for a dirty house. And I don't care. I am SO different than MOST women. Yet, I do not denounce the label, NOR DO I DEFEND IT - Just because most women are different than I am.
It SEEMS that you denounce the label "atheist" because you don't want to be seen as a militant atheist. You defend your chosen label of "Not an atheist". And that's fine. But you can't expect people with different ideas to conform.
But you can't expect people with different ideas to conform.
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I can agree with this; but to band together and ridicule others, and make them feel alone is not changing anything. In fact, it makes things worse. It becomes oppression, criticism and discrimination.
I haven't created a branch of atheism, nor am I asking anyone to join it. My attacking atheism is no different than you attacking Christianity.
You were physically born a woman.
"Not an atheist" isn't a label.
I denounce the label for the reasons stated, basically because atheism being too religious.
Exactly. So why do you argue for atheism if you cannot expect others to conform?
Although I disagree with the methodology, I agree with the motivation behind it.