The Childish idealisms of self and equality.

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posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 09:31 PM
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The childish idealism of equality.

All of us here are adults and we dont need anyone to tell us what is right or wrong, what is fair and unfair and what is fantasy and what is reality.

This being said so where has it fallen apart. I mean why all the angry vertabatims, arguing and discontents that permeate so many debate?

Is this this the product of some angry little child that was not loved, or is it more complex than that. For example is it possible for some people despite being fully functioning adults still to be able to have some functions inside the brain still unmatured; and in essence Childish.

To examine this idea closer, lets extend the example and look at the many common ideas/themes that permeate and repeat through many philosophical and metaphysical debates. The ideas of

- everyone is equal no one is above any other.
- serving self above others (being conceited is good)
- having unconditional love or hate
- Ignorance is wise
- There is no duality in Nature
- The conceptual mind is the source of lacking/unhappiness
- (There are other themes which can be added to the list also).

So whats your opinion of a supposition that many ideas promulgated in philosophical and metaphysical debates are products of immature minds who are delivering unrealistic and unpragmatic life concepts which are unworkable inside the real day to day world we all live in.

Or am i being too cynical and harsh? Whats your views?
edit on 21-2-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


You do realize half the items on that list contradict the other half?

I mean, that does sound like a lot of the philosophers on this site, but there's a fair few who are probably laughing at you right now. Anyway, how are those things childish? Equality is childish? Love for everyone is childish? Self-empowerment is childish?

You did more complaining than explaining. I'd like to read your explanations, if you'd be so willing.



posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 





You do realize half the items on that list contradict the other half?


You are right and im not surprised you were the first to identify this as i have seen you in a many thread getting frustrated trying to and unsuccessful to understand the contradictory and convoluted logic of some arguments being made to you.



posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


I don't understand how equality is childish if children are not even thinking about such complex things as equality/freedom and are more focused on their own lives.

No one is better than anyone because "better" is subjective and has nothing to do with reality. "Better" is an opinion.

"I'm rich, so I am better than you" - no, you just have more money than another.

"I'm eloquent so I am better than you" - no, you just have more style.

People attach themselves to a "quality" and say that quality is better upon all other qualities and then claim since they have more of that quality they are better, when it was just an opinion that that quality is better in the first place.

In reality, all things are equal, but of course we have our own opinions and preferences, but is NOTICING that fact that makes you mature...



posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





In reality, all things are equal, but of course we have our own opinions and preferences, but is NOTICING that fact that makes you mature...


Let apply the idea of equality to real life. Give me examples of where people are are equal? Where opinions and preferences are treated equally, in terms of their actual implementation in life?
Where rich and poor are treated equally?
Would you consider youself higher than a hobo in a street ally?
Would you consider yourself more wise than the average Ats poster?

Please answer honestly!


edit on 21-2-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 




Let apply the idea of equality to real life. Give me examples of where people are are equal?


There are no examples, because all IS equality. Opinions will say otherwise though as one/some qualities will be seen in the MIND to be superior to other quality(s).



Where opinions and preferences are treated equally, in terms of their actual implementation in life?


Treated equally by whom? In reality, they are treated equal because they are all allowed to exist. Now, whether they are treated in such a way by others is a whole different story.



Where rich and poor are treated equally?


They both exist in the same way by reality. By humans, no, depending on the specific beliefs each person may have.




Would you consider youself higher than a hobo in a street ally?
Would you consider yourself more wise than the average Ats poster?


That's irrelevant. If I said "yes" or even "no" it would just be another opinion.

I am not denying that most people see certain qualities as higher than others, I'm simply saying that in REALITY they ARE all EQUAL and if they aren't seen as being equal by HUMANS and therefore are treating others unfairly, then that is a result of a person's action from OPINION/BELIEF. In reality all qualities just exist, none is "higher" or "lower" than any other.

Of course, each individual have their own beliefs and preferences though...

Now, you can make an argument saying "is it really fair then if some beliefs and preferences are honored while others are not? ", I will say, the way humans respond to other humans, does not change the fact that in nature/reality all opinions are just existing, and if someone has an opinion against nature such as "I want to fly by just jumping in the air" you can say that this is inferior to something more aligned with nature/reality, but if that is the only inequality then it doesn't seem to be that major since all beliefs/opinions against what IS (Reality/Truth) is not fulfilled.


So, repeating what I said in a summary:

ALL lies, are equally unfulfilled as they did not happen in Reality/Truth/Past. So that is the equality.

ALL opinions/beliefs are equally respected being allowed to exist by Nature/Reality, but MAY be looked at differently by other humans. So that is the equality given from REALITY, but only from humans MINDS can it be seen differently.

And yes, all do have their preferences by the MATURITY is realize that it is just another preference...
edit on 21-2-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Let apply the idea of equality to real life. Give me examples of where people are are equal?



There are no examples, because all IS equality. Opinions will say otherwise though as one/some qualities will be seen in the MIND to be superior to other quality(s).


Ok you saying its all opinion based. Lets take a scenario, two twins going for a swim and shark comes and grabs one. Who do you think is in a superior situation?




Treated equally by whom? In reality, they are treated equal because they are all allowed to exist. Now, whether they are treated in such a way by others is a whole different story.


So lets go back to the scenario, and consider what you just said. So the Shark has one twin in his mouth and is being taken out to deep water. The twin is screaming back in terror to his terrified brother watching "help me i dont want to die like this". Your logic is saying that both the twin who is about to be ripped to bits and the one seeing his brother alive for last time are both equal; because the shark has been allowed by nature to exist!

Well obviously in this situation one twin is going to literally get the Red carpet treament.




They both exist in the same way by reality. By humans, no, depending on the specific beliefs each person may have.


So lets say the twins had exactly the same upbringings and beliefs, which and and just so happens that disallows them to interfere with nature. A boat moored a few metres away has a harpoon gun that gives the twin a chance to kill shark before it starts to chomp other twin.

So what belief is stronger now the one of loyalty and love to the brother or to the religion. He has to make a choice, and there can only be one choice which leads to distinctively different outcomes of life or death. So you telling me in this situation beliefs are equal? Would you say the same if it was your kids in that situation.


Would you consider youself higher than a hobo in a street ally?
Would you consider yourself more wise than the average Ats poster?




That's irrelevant. If I said "yes" or even "no" it would just be another opinion.


No its not irrelevant. You are avoiding a straight forward question because it was too hard for you.




I am not denying that most people see certain qualities as higher than others, I'm simply saying that in REALITY they ARE all EQUAL and if they aren't seen as being equal by HUMANS and therefore are treating others unfairly, then that is a result of a person's action from OPINION/BELIEF. In reality all qualities just exist, none is "higher" or "lower" than any other.


In your OPINION do you have certain certain qualities than a Hobo?
In your BELIEF do you have certain certain qualities than the average Atser?




Now, you can make an argument saying "is it really fair then if some beliefs and preferences are honored while others are not? ", I will say, the way humans respond to other humans, does not change the fact that in nature/reality all opinions are just existing, and if someone has an opinion against nature such as "I want to fly by just jumping in the air" you can say that this is inferior to something more aligned with nature/reality, but if that is the only inequality then it doesn't seem to be that major since all beliefs/opinions against what IS (Reality/Truth) is not fulfilled.



If people in general lived by your beliefs how often do you thinnk would their reality be fulfilled. 50% of time, 20%.....5% ?




So, repeating what I said in a summary:

ALL lies, are equally unfulfilled as they did not happen in Reality/Truth/Past. So that is the equality.



So you happy to justify an argument that it doesnt matter if you tell truth or lie?




ALL opinions/beliefs are equally respected being allowed to exist by Nature/Reality, but MAY be looked at differently by other humans. So that is the equality given from REALITY, but only from humans MINDS can it be seen differently.


So if one of the twins is eaten by the shark you will rationalise the event as ok, because it played out within the rules of REALITY.



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 12:36 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 



Originally posted by AthlonSavage
Ok you saying its all opinion based. Lets take a scenario, two twins going for a swim and shark comes and grabs one. Who do you think is in a superior situation?


Well what is "superior"? That is just your opinion. It depends on your view of death.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So lets go back to the scenario, and consider what you just said. So the Shark has one twin in his mouth and is being taken out to deep water. The twin is screaming back in terror to his terrified brother watching "help me i dont want to die like this". Your logic is saying that both the twin who is about to be ripped to bits and the one seeing his brother alive for last time are both equal; because the shark has been allowed by nature to exist!


Both are equally happening - yes. Now whether the situation is PREFERABLE is an opinion.

And like I said, we all have preferences and sometimes they are fulfilled and sometimes not. Most do not want to die but it will happen in the future as death is a part of life.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage

So lets say the twins had exactly the same upbringings and beliefs, which and and just so happens that disallows them to interfere with nature. A boat moored a few metres away has a harpoon gun that gives the twin a chance to kill shark before it starts to chomp other twin.

So what belief is stronger now the one of loyalty and love to the brother or to the religion. He has to make a choice, and there can only be one choice which leads to distinctively different outcomes of life or death. So you telling me in this situation beliefs are equal? Would you say the same if it was your kids in that situation.


Which belief is "stronger" in what regard? The one where he protects his brother would be more suited for survival - yes.

But remember, preferring life over death is just an opinion. It is a NATURAL preference which is IMPORTANT for our survival - but it is still a preference never the less and since death is a part of life - it will eventually happen.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
No its not irrelevant. You are avoiding a straight forward question because it was too hard for you.


A lack of clarity does indeed make a question difficult to answer with clarity.

I am "higher" in which regard? I am more "wise" in which regard? If I have "more" of something, seeing that as "better" is just an opinion - a preference. In reality things are just happening.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
In your OPINION do you have certain certain qualities than a Hobo?
In your BELIEF do you have certain certain qualities than the average Atser?


In my opinion/belief, we all have certain qualities that others have less of, for example, a person who is really, really, good with art while another may not be so good at it. But whether that makes a person "better" or "not" is an opinion - a perspective.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
If people in general lived by your beliefs how often do you thinnk would their reality be fulfilled. 50% of time, 20%.....5% ?


Which belief are you talking about? I don't consider myself having beliefs, I'd rather define them as desires/wishes/dreams/preferences and if everyone lived by those, then the world who just be me, myself, and I. I would be the reality.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So you happy to justify an argument that it doesnt matter if you tell truth or lie?


Matter to whom? To the person you are lying to and the others who may be affected by the lie? Maybe...


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So if one of the twins is eaten by the shark you will rationalise the event as ok, because it played out within the rules of REALITY.


Whether I agree with it or not, it is what happened and nothing will change that. My preference would be that it doesn't happen, though. I would like for people to live in peace forever (or whoever long they choose to live) but that is not reality. Unfortunately, the pain of death happens.



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


So reading above it appears you live by a systrem of personal preference? Yes?

Another scenario

What happens if God showed up on your doorstep and said look there appears to been of a mistake, you were accidently put into business class in life and you should of been in the low economy class.

God gives you a few minutes to justfy yourself being allowed to stay in business class based upon which he will decide to make you live under a preference system of poor or wealthy.

He tell you if you have three minutes to speak and if you say nothing by default your going to poor class. You look around at you wonderful life and what do you see? Do you see something that is equal to poor?

Will you be happy if God decides your justifying argument was not convincing. The timers clicking lets hear what you would say before God and all Atsers who are watching on as your justifying argument?
edit on 22-2-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 12:52 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


I would not be happy because my preference is to have more money.

I wouldn't know which argument I can make which would be "convincing" to God. I guess I would just say how I feel and if he ultimately wants to mess up my life by putting me in the poor class then I would just be miserable. What else is there to do?
edit on 22-2-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





I would not be happy because my preference is to have more money.

I wouldn't know which argument I can make which would be "convincing" to God. I guess I would just say how I feel and if he ultimately wants to mess up my life by putting me in the poor class then I would just be miserable. Still doesn't change the fact that it was just my preference.


So i think its accurate to say the preference view point or opinion inside the conceptual mind of a human, is a based on the workings of a preference measurement stick system. One of those measurements for example is money as you just said.




Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So you happy to justify an argument that it doesnt matter if you tell truth or lie?



and your replied



Matter to whom? To the person you are lying to and the others who may be affected by the lie? Maybe...


So it be a reasonable assessment to make following through this post that you perosnally will use lies when you can if it allows you to obtain a benefit which in your personal opinion measure it to have a good outcome to you or your life, for example as you said one thing like making more money.



edit on 22-2-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


Personally, I would stay away from lies because I will be the one suffering in the end by guilt/compassion if it leads to the suffering of another, and plus lies are just too difficult to remember. It is basically making up a story, there is freedom in telling the truth, then you won't have to memorize which lies you told to which person.

Yes, to most people, money is important as there is force to live under such a system, but in reality it's just paper, and to forget that is to believe the dream to be real.

But if "God" forced me to be homeless or whatever, I guess the dream would then be a nightmare, and even that is just my opinion. Some say homeless are the happiest.
edit on 22-2-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:10 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





Personally, I would stay away from lies because I will be the one suffering in the end by guilt/compassion if it leads to the suffering of another, and plus lies are just too difficult to remember. It is basically making up a story, there is freedom in telling the truth, then you won't have to memorize which lies you told to which person.



problem with that logic is that you are measuring true/false based on your own opinion. When you start using your version of true and false against another person you can start damaging them because they have a different measuring stick of opinions/beliefs.

In other words your deciding whats best for them, isnt that like playing big brother....? I see your belief systems and opinions having parallels to totalium government controlled societies. I will decide what is a lie or truth and waht is best for you.





Yes, to most people, money is important as there is false to live under such a system, but in reality is just paper, and to forget that is to believe the dream to be real.


So what is the higher Reality/dream,...Natures equality or Humans personal beliefs? Which side of the force do you sit with?



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:16 AM
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The concepts you bring up as example (many of them arpgme) for the most part, challenge the thought patterns we are accustomed to. That is provocative. It stirs up the ego to defend iself, for it is the ideas we are accustomed to! To blur those lines is to threaten it's existence.

Sometimes, that is an interesting exercise, and can even be constructive.
I have observed that people dare to try it more online than they do in real life, perhaps with the sense that the ego might be able to keep it's defenses in check easier. But even then, we sometimes lose it and strike out anyway.



It is sometimes very obvious and straightforward, and we can call it childish. But I am not sure it is any more childish than wrapping up ones defense in a less evident, passive aggressive insult......

Editted: I hadn't read the discussion between you and arpgme here, then I thought for a second I understood your disagreement, but now I don't think I did.
edit on 22-2-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:22 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 



Originally posted by AthlonSavage
problem with that logic is that you are measuring true/false based on your own opinion. When you start using your version of true and false against another person you can start damaging them because they have a different measuring stick of opinions/beliefs.


I am not "measuring" truth or falseness. It is what it is, and that is what I will tell (truth). It doesn't matter what their opinion/beliefs are. Reality is what is it.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
In other words your deciding whats best for them, isnt that like playing big brother....? I see your belief systems and opinions having parallels to totalium government controlled societies. I will decide what is a lie or truth and waht is best for you.


Are you serious? I am against control, nor did I said I will "decide" anything for them. I do not decide what is "truth" or "lie" REALITY does that for me. If it is being told in a different way then it actually occurred in REALITY then it isn't truth.


Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So what is the higher Reality/dream,...Natures equality or Humans personal beliefs? Which side of the force do you sit with?


There is no "higher" or "lower" dream/reality. Whether the dream is fun or scary, it still is just a dream. Whether the individuals in the dream believe in "this" or "that" it still is just an opinion in the dream.

There is no "choosing sides". Human's beliefs are within their mind, and humans are within nature (reality/existence).



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:24 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





I am not "measuring" truth or falseness. It is what it is, and that is what I will tell (truth). It doesn't matter what their opinion/beliefs are. Reality is what is it.



This is the crux of my argument how do you KNOW what REALITY is when you have already admitted its interpeted through your personal belief system. This is the lie of your belief system.



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:28 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 


By seeing what is there, and understanding the difference between what is seen (reality/truth) and the opinion/perspective of it (mind/belief)

My OPINION can be that reality is unconditional love or hate, but no matter what OPINION I may have, that does not change the MECHANICS of reality (how it OPERATES) - and it will be my OPINION whether I see its functioning as love or hate or whatever...
edit on 22-2-2013 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 01:29 AM
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I think I see the issue. You see the belief that everyone in their essence is equal is idealistic; that it is logical nonsense when applied to real world situations. Love and kindness and equality sound fine and dandy but that's not how the world works so why are you even bothering with it? That sort of thing yes?

Well, if everyone being equal was not the truth; underlying this whole complex then you would be correct, it would be just as fruitless as looking for bananas on a ficus.

Everything in existence has arisen or depends on something else to arise in a chain. Seeing these words; depend on sight, sight depends on the eye, the eye depends on perception, perception depends on consciousness, consciousness depends on an is or is not, without these words there is no seeing them or anything else in the chain to see them.

With the consciousness perceiving various phenomena rising in our sense spheres, we form a duality of like dislike or a neutral yet to be determined by experience into a like or dislike. This is all the self actually is; an amalgamation of a bunch of likes, dislikes and neutrals. If I like, or dislike a flower does it cease to be a flower? No it just is what it is a flower. If I prescribe it as having great beauty or rarity unparalleled among all flowers that becomes the ideal for my flower...is it the best most beautiful flower to everyone else? Not likely; sure it can come to take on a great value, but it is still just a flower no matter how much I or anyone else projects onto it.

People are the same way; we can ascribe all of these attributes, beliefs and ideals onto them or ourselves...but that isn't going to change the person into anything else in reality. All the self is; is a tangled mass of like, and dislike or neutral; on every single object we have ever experienced, through the senses stored in the mind.

So the choices we made of like and dislike; have led us up to where we are now, as well as our station in life. Yet at the source of it all we are the same a ball of likes and dislikes, and in reality we are all the same...because whether you are above a bum in an alley or not...that is just the flower.

How does this apply in the real world? Well for one, you see the real world beyond distinctions...there is no need to run around chasing happiness or run from sadness...they are both self created illusions. The thing that keeps these illusions alive; are a delusion that if you had this or this then you'd be happy or could escape sadness, that is chained to greed, you see your neighbor having those things or qualities that you think you want or are above that is chained to hate.

Those three little things keep the world of illusion spinning in chaos. The thought that there is a self and identifying it; when it is nothing more than an ever changing mass from moment to moment of like or dislike or yet to be determined neutral from sense contact with various phenomena is what supports the illusion.

Understanding this beyond the conceptual; sets one on firm ground in reality. You are not tossed about like a dinghy in a storm of emotions, you have no desire to run, chase or grasp after non existent ideals. You know what is the flower and what isn't the flower and deal with situations and phenomena as they arise accordingly.

Those are the markers on the path that I took; maybe the world will get there eventually...all I do is point when asked, there are many exits in a burning house the one I point at isn't the only way out, so if you take the front door or an upstairs window, has nothing to do with the choice I made for an escape route. As long as I draw breath I'll stand in the middle and point when asked, when my time here is over I'll simply



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 





By seeing what is there, and understanding the difference between what is seen (reality/truth) and the opinion/perspective of it (mind/belief)

My OPINION can be that reality is unconditional love or hate, but no matter what OPINION I may have, that does not change the MECHANICS of reality (how it OPERATES) - and it will be my OPINION whether I see its functioning as love or hate or whatever...


Your blinded by your own great views, no matter how you want to cut your argument every decision you make boils down to you own OPINION. You are own own God residing over your universe of truth but its creation is born out of the first lie, just like the bite of the apple in the Garden of Eden.

Your whole reality and all your truths are built on from he initial big bang which was the original created lie.

Your truth Eden is a personal dream, fantasy it can never be anymore than that because you were the one who ate the forbidden fruit.



posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by AthlonSavage
 



Originally posted by AthlonSavage
Your blinded by your own great views, no matter how you want to cut your argument every decision you make boils down to you own OPINION.


While it may be true that every decision I make boils down to my own opinion, the fact that I exist is TRUTH. Not everything is opinion. Existence is not. Existence is happening. Now the UNKNOWN existence can be debated, or whether the existence is an ILLUSION can be debated, but the truth is existence IS.





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