Fallen Angels 1 - Rumi the Sufi

After I take a tour around the block of ancient texts in the coming threads, I will end with the discourses of Rumi. here is a taste:

Yet, even though they are cattle, still they
deserve favor. They may live in the stable, yet they
are accepted by the Lord of the stable. If He so
desires, He transfers them from this stable into
His private pen. So, in the beginning God brought
men and women into existence, and then transferred
them from the pen of spiritual existence
into the world inanimate. Then from the pen of
the world inanimate into the vegetable world.
Then from vegetable into animal. From animal to
human, human to angel, and so on forever. He
manifested all these forms so that you would
know His pens are many, and that each one is
loftier than the next.

God revealed this present world so that you
could accept the other stages that lie ahead. He
did not reveal it so that you would say, “This is all
there is.” The masters of crafts demonstrate their
abilities and arts so their apprentices will find
faith in them, and will believe in the other arts
they have not yet demonstrated. A king bestows
robes of honor and lavishes kindness on his subjects
because they look forward to receiving other
gifts from him, and hang hopefully upon future
purses of gold. He does not grant these things for
them to say, “This is all there is. The king will not
give out any other blessings,” and so make do
with that amount. If the king knows any subjects
are going to say that, and take such gifts for
granted, he will never bestow any blessings whatsoever upon them.

In this view, we see that Rumi diverges from Hermes in the Corpus Hermeticum. Hermes states that no man ever occupies the body of a lower life form. I'll get to Hermes in a later thread.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Yeah, it is fun and I am still reading the rest of the thread. There is a lot to read... but hey, I like reading about subjects of interest and this is definitely on the top of my list.

I don't know.. who else could you throw in??

Doesn't Job speak of Fallen Angels? I've always wondered if Job was not inspired by the spirit of Jesus. I will check again to see if I am right.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Yeah, it is fun and I am still reading the rest of the thread. There is a lot to read... but hey, I like reading about subjects of interest and this is definitely on the top of my list.

I don't know.. who else could you throw in??

Doesn't Job speak of Fallen Angels? I've always wondered if Job was not inspired by the spirit of Jesus. I will check again to see if I am right.

Job mentions a council of sorts where Satan also attends. It also states that God charges Angels with error.

There is this from chapter 38

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

Job 33 says this:

22 They draw near to the pit,
and their life to the messengers of death.
23 Yet if there is an angel at their side,
a messenger, one out of a thousand,
sent to tell them how to be upright,
24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them—
25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—
26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
27 And they will go to others and say,
‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’

This gives us another view than Rumi. In this, there is a Pit below the womb of the Earth. Like Rumi, Job shows that Angels can present a ransom for us. Who paid that ransom? Christ of course.

Why then should I fear to become less by dying? I shall die once again as a man To rise an angel perfect from head to foot! Again when I suffer dissolution as an angel, I shall become what passes the conception of man!

reply to post by EnochWasRight


That's deep, but my hearts feels its authenticity of a man seeking and searching for the truth.

Earth is our house and the Lord is it's Father, Adam.

Earth is our house, and oh how we are allowing it to be demolished. Our father of mankind is the first Adam/Atom.

The "cow" is thoughtful and always caring. A giver of self. This is the most important lesson and.... is so hard! Ignorance gets in the way, but if we are steadfast we can overcome it.

The cross of Christ is merely the symbol for this in the first century. Form one comes many.

From one comes many, indeed. There is the math.

the cow of lust is the material world

I still chose the word ignorance as lust comes ignorance in my opinion. Dissecting the words is so meaningful. I really think it will lead to wisdom.

Men of true reason see the true friend above. Vain babblers see no friend.

Here again the end result is of a dual nature. Both ignorant and knowledgeable. The man of reason is wise, the vain babbler is ignorant.

Faith is the key

One will have faith in what they love and desire. This love and desire comes from the inspiration one connects with. Because "God" is everywhere and in everything... you can have faith in a rock and still ignorantly have faith in the creator. My opinion of course.

Desire is ok as long as it is meaningful. Who decides? You do. Inside each of us is a knowledge and an ignorant based perception of different subjects. There is the grace.

The book in question is the book of life. It records our deeds. Some will rejoice in their work. Some will learn from their own dread when perfect love is seen clearly.

Ah.... and this is when we know our self as others know us. All perceptions are then perceived and thus we understand and are no longer ignorant to love.

The wool (Sin) is then given back as a new robe. Rumi knew this. So did the Greeks, who also knew the Logos. WORD!

Exactly... and it is really cooler than ice. Love it!!!

When knowledge is lacking in a man s nature, His soul is like a stone on the plain. Primal Soul is the theatre of God's court, Soul of souls the exhibition of God Himself. All the angels were pure reason and soul, Yet when the new soul of Adam came, they were as its body. When in joy they crowded round that new soul, 4 They bowed before it as body does before soul. Fear of men's censure the greatest obstacle to acceptance of the true faith.

I do think we descended and are "angels" or balls of light, like the Sun. I don't think we fell as fallen in "sin". Its too dramatic. The idea is man made... or so I feel.

We are pure reason, just not here in the material world. Its something we are striving to do. The end result is wisdom without the ignorance.

I apologize for all the Angles where there should be Angels. Once it's done, I am now too late to edit. You forgive me, right? Isn't that the point of the thread? Once it's done, we forget the errors and remember the good we gain along the path.

Ahaha... I didn't even notice. I am more concerned with the message and not the spelling.

I'll get to Hermes in a later thread.

Great! I love Hermes!!!

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I like Job.

This below says in my opinion that we were here and witnessed the foundations of the Earth being laid. We are the angels shouting for joy, but who are the stars. Stars as we know do not sing. In the other verses we know what the pit symbolizes though. I imagine there would at least be one angel who would speak up for me. lol

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I like Job.

This below says in my opinion that we were here and witnessed the foundations of the Earth being laid. We are the angels shouting for joy, but who are the stars. Stars as we know do not sing. In the other verses we know what the pit symbolizes though. I imagine there would at least be one angel who would speak up for me. lol

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

Job also knows that the Redeemer would be Adam in the end. He shows it here:

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

For me, this is one of the most important passages in the Bible. The topic is the Redeemer. The facts are that the root of the error was in Adam, yet so is the remedy. We fear a certain judgment if we hound the one that originally made the choice. Ultimately, we are ALL Adam.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Ultimately, we are ALL Adam.

I believe so too, more so as representation. Adam/Jesus represents us all/mankind. Out of the one comes many.

I am waiting for more of your interpretations before I make any comments here.

That being said please, do continue I don't know how I missed Rumi in my researches so far so thank you for that.

Peace.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
I am waiting for more of your interpretations before I make any comments here.

That being said please, do continue I don't know how I missed Rumi in my researches so far so thank you for that.

Peace.

I think I have gleaned all the Angel stuff from Rumi that I can. This thread covers the Masnavi of Rumi. The last thread I do, after covering Enoch and others, will be centered on the Discourses of Rumi. Today, I'll delve into Enoch in an other thread.