A Seat for the Pope at King David's Tomb at Mt Zion

A Seat for the Papacy at Mt Zion In Jerusalem

An historic agreement has been drafted between Israel and the Vatican. The Israeli authorities have granted the Pope an official seat in the room where the Last Supper is believed to have taken place, on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, and where David and Solomon, Jewish kings of Judea, are considered by some researchers, to also be buried.

It is the culmination of a long campaign by the Catholic Church to regain religious stewardship over the place where Jesus is supposed to have broken bread and drunk wine with his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion.
www.israelnationalnews.com...

I am most curious as to what this "seat" is going to be?

Aside from granting access to The Upper Room by The Vatican, is this seat an allegorical
( as in authority) or to be a real seat,
or even a thone of some sort, or both?



'Israel, Vatican Near Historic Relationship Upgrade'

The most contentious was the issue of sovereignty over the Last Supper Room, with the Catholic Church demanding ownership, and Israel not willing to relinquish it. The two sides have essentially agreed to disagree on the matter, but not let it stand in the way of the overall accord.....

The agreement also works out the issue of expropriating Church property for infrastructure purposes, with a list of five sites – including the Mount of Beatitudes and Capernaum near Lake Kinneret (the Sea of Galilee) and the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth – where land expropriation would not be allowed except for public safety in situations of emergency, and then only after coordination with the Church.

Israel and Vatican on the Verge of Historic Agreement

Jordan condemns alleged deal between Israel and Vatican over Jerusalem

Vatican, Israel Reach Historic Deal on Last Supper site

This is an unprecedented agreement, and accordingly, one which will involve many religious
perspectives. To that end, I have highlighted the key elements of this historic event, leaving the rest for discovery, and discussion.

Indeed, we live in the most interesting of times.

Didn't Arafat have a permenant seat there?
Or am I thinking of the church at the manger?
I can't find the info .... but it's tickling my brain now ...

ETA .. Benedict has been forbidden to fly by his doctors so
he'll never get to sit there. It'll have to be the next pope ..

reply to post by burntheships

In the long term, the gesture will increase tensions between Jews and the large assets of the Vatican. The Church has long been working to reduce Jewish rights in Jerusalem and in the Old City. Now, after the Muslim Waqf authority expelled the Christians from the Temple Mount and turned it into a mosque, it’s the turn of the Vatican to lay its hands on the Jewish Jerusalem.

So tiresome to see conflict over religious issues....

The Vatican wants the Jews out of the Old City and apparently Israel’s government is agreeing with them. Turning the Cenacle into an active church is also a way of desecrating the holiness of the site known as the Tomb of David.

This is quite a statement. The Israeli government intentionally creating tensions between the religious groups both domestic and abroad?.

I don’t pretend to know all that much about Religion in our contemporary world, but I do know it has been used as justification for more and more conflict, as it always has.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I dont know about Arafat.

To my knowledge, the last I recall about Jewish/Vatican relations was that the Vatican
had asked Israel to end its occupation.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And then there was a rumor in 2005 reports of a swap deal between Israel and the Vatican which would
have granted the Vatican control of the Upper Room. Supposedly effective pressure was exerted on the Israeli government to abandon the plans to relinquish control of the Upper Room.

Now it seems that this involves some conflict again over the Upper Room.

Israel Hayom is reporting that the agreement will grant the Pope "an official seat" in the Upper Room,
as well as giving the Vatican "a special modicum of control over the site".

Algemeiner reports that Israel "did not give up sovereignty",
but "will allow the Vatican control over the site".

reply to post by MDDoxs


Thanks for your comments, and yes well, there are many perspectives.
The Prime Minister and The Pope see this as strengtheing ties,
and a peaceful event. Netanyahu wrote Pope Benedict a letter
thanking him.

“On behalf of the people of Israel, I want to thank you for all you have done as Pope to strengthen relations between Christians and Jews and between the Vatican and the Jewish State,”

www.timesofisrael.com...

I pondered as to where this should have been posted, its not quite a conspiracy, and
maybe I should have put it in WW3.?

Originally posted by burntheships

I pondered as to where this should have been posted, its not quite a conspiracy, and
maybe I should have put it in WW3.?

My thoughts exactly since I guess there isn't exactly an "Armageddon" forum. This news honestly turns my stomach. I am not saying it's endgame right now, but this looks like a big step in that direction.

~OkieDokie

reply to post by burntheships

I pondered as to where this should have been posted, its not quite a conspiracy, and
maybe I should have put it in WW3.?

I had a chuckle at that. I would not go that far, but the Israeli government certainly takes so strange stances on certain issues.

Lets just hope this is not the beginning of another Catholic Crusade to retake the holy land

I have a few questions though, that maybe some can answer:
1. What benefit does the Israeli government gain from this arrangement?
2. Who has to actually sign off this to make this happen?

What rights does the pope and the catholic church have? I say none, as a Christain I find the Catholic to be a false prphet and the pope a strange man in funny clothes. Most of the antireligous sentiment stem from the catholics misuse of their power and money not to mention the sexual abuse that has ran rampant.

reply to post by burntheships


Technically neither David nor Solomon were jews, the word jew didn't exist until Babylon and David would have followed Jesus not Rabbinical judaism. Neither is that the room where the last supper occured as the original building was destroyed. That being said, that isn't the spot where David's tomb is either, so the story should really read "Papacy finds a place in Jerusalem".

as BTS has noted there is tension between the vatican ( here its the vatican bank), christians, and Jews
but not at the mob level I bet
I bet at the mob level everything is all just copecetic

Class action suit by Holocaust survivorsMain article: Alperin v. Vatican Bank
Alperin v. Vatican Bank is a class action suit by Holocaust survivors against the Institute for Works of Religion and Franciscan Order ("Order of Friars Minor") filed in San Francisco, California on November 15, 1999. The case was initially dismissed as a political question by the District Court for the Northern District of California in 2003, but was reinstated in part by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in 2005. That ruling has attracted attention as a precedent at the intersection of the Alien Tort Claims Act (ATCA) and the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA).

The complaint against the Vatican Bank was dismissed in 2007 on the basis of sovereign immunity, but the case against the Franciscan Order continues as of 2009. According to Reuben Hart, "the case is extremely complicated and potentially massive, considering the large class spread across many countries".

en.wikipedia.org...

an interesting page re the vatican bank
and amoung other things the mob, and money laundering etc

Originally posted by OkieDokie

My thoughts exactly since I guess there isn't exactly an "Armageddon" forum.

Well, thats an idea, we might need one soon. It all depends on how the rest of the
world deals with this, and the ensuing events.

I am not saying it's endgame right now, but this looks like a big step in that direction.

Well, there will be many perspectives, mine is similar.

reply to post by DOLCOTT


They only have the rights that Israel grants to them. (as of now).
You have very valid points. Its a huge contrversy for sure.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Technically neither David nor Solomon were jews, the word jew didn't exist until Babylon and David would have followed Jesus not Rabbinical judaism. Neither is that the room where the last supper occured as the original building was destroyed. That being said, that isn't the spot where David's tomb is either, so the story should really read "Papacy finds a place in Jerusalem".

Interesting points, and I would agree. Your title is good, I attempted to try and
use the titles found in the articles, and then we can take it from there.

I hope someone, maybe you can post up some factual information about Kind David,
and the geograhpical accurate history.

ETA, I changed the headline in the OP to refelct this.

Ok, let me get this straight. If the Pope wants to go sit in the room, he can bring in a chair and sit down? Am I missing something?

Can he bring a lunch?

So, ah, congratulations to the pope and the catholic church, yay??

Originally posted by MDDoxs

I have a few questions though, that maybe some can answer:
1. What benefit does the Israeli government gain from this arrangement?
2. Who has to actually sign off this to make this happen?

Questions noted, and I will attempt to find answers.
Anyone else want to help?

ETA according to the article,

According to our sources, the agreement, which is expected to be ratified next June, gives the Pope a “special authority” over the second floor of the building, so that Christian pilgrims will be able to celebrate religious functions like Pope John Paul did in 2000.

There also seems to be some financial implications, authority gained by The Church over some
aspects of the ancient sites listed in the OP.

Ominous imo.

reply to post by Danbones


Dan,

I was thinking about that aspect of this, and how The Vatican has appointed
a new head of banking.

www.nytimes.com...

Now that Israel and The Vatican are going to this accord it will be very interesting
to see what becomes of all of the wealth of The Vatican, and Isreal. accordingly.

Originally posted by Aleister
Am I missing something?

Yes, you are.
What is the meaning of a "Seat" for a Pope to be placed in The Cenacle?

Originally posted by burntheships

Originally posted by Aleister
Am I missing something?

Yes, you are.
What is the meaning of a "Seat" for a Pope to be placed in The Cenacle?

Was that the name someone gave Jesus' restaurant? I think the meaning of a seat in the cenacle is that the pope can sit there, becaue he is now able to bring a seat into the room, according to the people that control who can walk around in it. I'm sure lots of people can sit there. If you mean that he gets to sit where Jesus hung out at his last meal, is there any evidence at all that this is the exact same room? And if the pope can bring in a seat, can he let someone use it, like having a box seat ticket? I am still missing something. Or maybe not.

Originally posted by Aleister
Am I missing something?

The seat is only one aspect of the development, albeit not a snall one.

I'm sure lots of people can sit there. If you mean that he gets to sit where Jesus hung out at his last meal, is there any evidence at all that this is the exact same room? And if the pope can bring in a seat, can he let someone use it, like having a box seat ticket?

I doubt The Pope would let anyone sit on his throne, certainly many people will come
there, that is one of the aspects of the story.

reply to post by FlyersFan

ETA .. Benedict has been forbidden to fly by his doctors so he'll never get to sit there. It'll have to be the next pope ..

Maybe he will walk on water like Jesus. If he cannot pull this off I guess he could take a boat. But I guess the simpliest method would be to take the car...