reply to post by NorEaster
I think you have that backwards. Existence cannot be achieved by that which cannot possess identity. If "it" can't be delineated out from that
which contains it, then "it" can't be said to exist. That basic philosophy 101.
What if you're the only person in the universe and you're in a coma? Do you still have an identity? Or are you nothing because there is no one to give
you an identity? Additionally, there are mysterious things out there, in the ocean and in space, under the ice and deep inside the earth, that exist
but have no identity because they don't identify themselves and no one has discovered them yet.
These things don't have an identity. But they still exist, regardless of whether we know it or not.
Internal (historical) and relative context forms identity. That's also philosophy 101.
Observation forms context. If you don't register what you are observing, context goes in one ear and out the other.
You can form an opinion (perception) about what you observe, but that's all you've dominion over.
Identity IS perception. Objective and subjective is another tangent of that, but I'll leave that alone for now.
Again, you're confusing identity with translation of perception. That's way down the existential progressive development road, and long after
identity has already been of primary importance within the reality sphere under evaluation.
If we were unable to perceive, would we be able to form identities? If we were unable to hold onto anything we perceived, and acted as a waystation
for stimuli, would we still be able to point at a rock and say, "There's some igneous stone"? In order to form any kind of identity, form any kind of
label, you have to perceive it first.
Active perception is called observation.
Try NOT making this about people. See how well that works for you with this specific take on identity that you've expressed.
I've never yet met a rock that demanded to be recognized. I've never drank a cup of water that demanded rights. I have yet to encounter a blade of
grass that complained because it was too hot. None of these things carry identity apart from that which is given to them by a species capable of
perceiving, analyzing, forming a conclusion, and communicating said conclusion to others to create a general identity concerning that which was
Identity is a luxury.
Like you said "An inanimate object isn't affected", which should kill that entire notion off immediately, since it obviously doesn't define
identity itself, but only pertains to how human minds perceive their own identity. Perception isn't reality. It's not even an accurate interpretation
And yet, humans are the only ones who talk about identity. What does that say about the reality of identity?
Identity isn't determined by observation. Reread the OP. I refuse to beat a dead horse here.
I have an object in sitting next to me on the table. You cannot see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, or touch it obviously. And I'm not going to tell
you what it is. However, I'm going to ask you to identify it without any means of observing it.
...Not so easy when you can't observe, is it? I don't think it's a dead horse at all. And I think I've just proven my point.
I may be done responding to you, though. I have no interest is pointless debate. I'm trying to construct a bibliography for a book I've
written. I'm just hoping to find a physicist or philosopher who's broken unique ground on the subject of identity as a primordial agent. I have no
interest in litigating what I already know to be true. I'm not gaining in any manner in that effort.
You didn't start a thread on identity because you already know everything about it. You started it to get outside opinions, which I have obliged in
providing. You haven't yet successfully refuted everything I've presented to you, so I would appreciate if you'd reciprocate the time I've invested in
exchanging ideas with you. After all, it's pretty rude to ask a question and then refuse answers just because you don't like them.
I would like an answer concerning the object still sitting next to me. Can you guess what it is? Or do you need to - observe?
edit on 21-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)