Chris Kyle (US Sniper) - You see a hero. I see a devil

I am unsure that either label is accurate.

He was a professional soldier doing a job. He was good at it.

Thats not grounds for idolisation but it is worthy of respect. The military are entitled to respect (not unquestioning idolisation).

With regard to the enemy, the sniper is always the most hated man on the battlefield (with the possible exception of the flamethrower guy, back in the days those were used).

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

I agree. All the people who say war is wrong, soldiers are evil, being a soldier = being a murderer, I'll bet are the same people who say they would kill to survive/protect their family in a SHTF situation. (at least I hope they would-I dont see them warding off marauding biker gangs etc with kind words).
Its just as ridiculous to say soldiers should come home and protect people on the streets-if they did that, you soon wouldnt have a trained army, and what would you do with the navy and air force?
One thing any martial art teaches is that you cant win a fight with defence alone-you need an army to go out there and fight. Sometimes the fight will be wrong, but thats the Politicians fault and its down to the public to vote them out, not down to the soldiers to mutiny.
So, my answer is, dont celebrate his kills, but do celebrate his bravery and charity work. Incidentally, I'm from the UK so I've got no vested interest either way.

War is wrong they are the fault of our system.Nobody has any answers through out history to completely stop them.
I condone no war.
Lies,involving money run these affairs,not the military which is a tool.
The tool is admired and valuable for what it does.To those who operate as that tool we are proud to be the best tool.
If you are bothered by that, don't use the tool again,or stop those who do.
If your tool ever gets bad you loose everything to the bad guys thats a historic fact.
Most of the bad guys are might makes right. Human life holds as much value to them as it does to an executive of Halliburton.
So we need to keep a good tool.
Bitching at the tool is pointless and in fact incredibly short sighted.
Not to mention how it totally disregards the value of the tool and in fact damages it.
Unless you have the omnipotent power to stop all conflict your are just out gassing.
And not a damn thing will change,unless we are broken down from the inside to do so. If you WANT that then you are the enemy,MY enemy.
Not a good thing.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


I agree with much of that, however, as someone mentioned above, we shouldn't necessarily idolize it either. It should almost be a bit taboo, as it is an unfortunate but often necessary offshoot of societal conflict. Glamorizing or applauding it normalizes it and degrades civil society as a whole.

Public discussion, especially his own comments, really only serves to enrage our enemies further and continue to put troops in harms way.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Lies,involving money run these affairs,not the military which is a tool.
The tool is admired and valuable for what it does.To those who operate as that tool we are proud to be the best tool.

Just be prepared to face the fact that many will consider that passing the buck.

At the end of the day, only one finger decides whether or not to pull that trigger, and only your feet are gonna put you in that situation in the first place.

At the end of the day, war crimes are committed in the field, not in some office. That office may have been complicit, may have ordered it, that doesn't change what happens, it doesn't bring anyone back to life.

It is well beyond time for humanity to show some goddamn moral accountability.

Originally posted by kosmicjack
I was a bit put off as well but I wouldn't call him a devil. Just a prime example of a perfectly manipulated citizen.

The fact is, we have a mercenary army...soldiers who are willing to kill for money....whether it's in the form of salary, benefits, tuition or job training...despite the fact many don't even understand our policies abroad or who the enemy is...if either are even defined.

How many all-volunteer unpaid, unfed, uncompensated armies are there? Let's see...none. And how many all poli-sci, all historian armies are there...none.

The military force of the US is all-volunteer. I'd be ok with a draft, you'd get a nice cross section that way.

It's packaged and marketed to mostly young men as a sort of warped patriotism. Kyle went so far as to say he had difficulty distinguishing which came first, God, family or country.

What sort of unwarped patriotism would you prefer? What are its characteristics?

I can't say a lot about Navy, I was occasionally around SEALs but didn't really have a lot to do with them. But the 'job first, then the military, then your family, then whatever you can find time for next' thing is typical of SOC for obvious reasons. You're not going to be writing or calling home when you're in the field. Nor can you just say 'whoopsie, it's my kid's birthday think I'll head back'.

Originally posted by Plugin
Yea big hero with a big ass sniper rifle, where the enemy doesn't see the guy who shots him. It's like slaughtering some animal, the first time may be hard, but it becomes routine and normal after a while, it doesn't mean anything after a while anymore, just a number.

These days in wars soldiers hardly have any eye contact with the guys they murder.

Maybe they did at Agincourt, but in recent wars, most soldiers don't have eye contact with the person they kill. Weapons are going off, people are getting hit, but you don't see little dotted lines connecting the shooter and the shootee. AF don't see it when they drop explosives. Navy don't see it when they lob in shells.

If you're a Ranger or SF you are more likely to see what you're doing in, I suppose.

But it's also wrong to say you just sit somewhere with a big ass sniper rifle, calmly and safely whaling away with not a danger in the world. A lot of times you have to work your way in, sometimes just you, sometimes you and a spotter. You can't also guarantee your target will often be sitting still in a mile long sight line where you can get some leisurely shot whilst sipping a cold drink then saunter away after. So you get up within maybe 600 yards in a ghillie, with your butt puckered, and lie there for days sometimes for the right moment, then when you get it, everyone knows where you are and you and the spot have to hightail it or die a real bad way.

I guess it 's possible all this guy did was sit on a rooftop with a ma deuce and yell 'get some get some' while he hosed down men women and kids like a bad movie, maybe LOAC was a lot different for that group. But I'd bet not.

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
Obviously you are a left winged anti-war person, which is ok. We defend you also. He was respected for his accomplishments, truly remarkable for his trade, best of the best. Give credit were credit is due, I disagree with Code Pink but give them credit at doing what they do best.

Do you want to discuss war and killing or someones ability to achieve at the highest level, 2 different topics.

Sorry to break . to you, but you're not defending American citizens. You're defending corporate interests, plain and simple. No one is invading America, and coming from a military family, I'm very capable of defending myself and my family.

reply to post by guanyu

I agree all of our leadership needs to be purged from the ground up.
But the tool IS effective you are only punishing a functionary with your logic.All of us are aware of the occasional bad apple who does indeed murder in war,but the military as a whole is not an issue or in fact the problem at all.
Only a person who sees a very small view of world affairs would make such a mistake.
My brainwashing was to be a traditional Christian nuclear American.My home brain washing was indeed from a n Air force officer.I have been punished for harming the little guy or for racism on a regular basis.
Now as an adult I was a very good tool for my nationstate to flourish.I liked the image of my nation state as I saw it. Now I see I was lied to and I will have to fix things so my nation state will be as it should be in my eyes.
Your modern brain washing has eliminated key values and indeed has shown the old ones as wrong,usually tying it in with racism or oppression .Both of which I would see die.

I don't condone his actions in the least but I believe he believed he was doing justice (due to indoctrination) and as such not a horrible human being.

But viewed from an outside perspective, him being in a country basically posing no threat to the US and killing of those who are defending their country from invaders. The same "terrorist" which the US themselves created. Not that I condone their actions either though but they only know what they are told and indoctrinated to think. Both these types of men then meet and kill each other, unfortunately taking many civilians with them. Might not apply to snipers though, I hope.

It was better when they had designated battlefields with only professional killers like the old chivalry days. WW1 was about 10% civilians casualties, Iraq is up to 90%.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
but the military as a whole is not an issue or in fact the problem at all.

It is true we are all accountable for any miscarriage of justice that is not pursued. The citizens go out and protest, and try and effect change, and they get beaten to all hell, people try to pay in blood to stop this insanity. When all you have to do is stop.

It would just make the world a better place if you soldiers ended this war now, by refusing to continue this travesty. What are they going to do? Lock you all up?

Just stop.

F it, the world will keep spinning, guys. Believe me.

reply to post by guanyu
It's just like you say, you stop running the war machine but for some reason it is not that simple (but it really is, philosophically). But many still need convincing that they are the only one responsible for their actions and are imbued with the power of self. You are who exactly who you believe you are, no less no more. If you believe you have to follow orders, you will, it's always about answering to a higher authority, in simple terms, fear. Do away with fear of death and you can do anything.
This sniper had most likely done away with his fear of death (due to his profession) but his sense of justice was warped and his talent wasted.

reply to post by onthedownlow


What makes you think that his actions in OIF and OEF had anything to do with serving his country? Last time I checked, Haliburton, KBR, Microsoft, IBM, CISCO, BP, Lockheed Martin, General Electric, General Dynamics and Blackwater (hell, even McDonalds) were the only ones who benefitted from that particular "war." If you think the "War on Terrorism" has anything to do with protecting your country, you need to do some reevaluation of your beliefs, as you have obviously been misled to an extreme extent. It is willful ignorance that allows illegal wars of attrition to be perpetrated without consequence to the naughty old guys who start them while the poor go and bleed and die for false ideals. You cannot hold the moral high-ground if you never occupy it.

You're making it sound like he's a bloody psycho killer of some sort...

Have you personally interviewed the man? Or known him up close & personal?

If not, better not call him a Devil.

You are assuming that every time this man pulls the trigger, he has a smirk on his face. Perhaps it's the other way around? Have you ever considered that perhaps every single life he takes, his own personal emotions are being affected as well?

Besides, he is a frigging sharp shooter for crying out loud. What in the hell were you expecting out of him? Not doing what he was properly trained to do?

Heck, I'd feel like # if I'm a Navy SEAL sharpshooter. If I do my job, I get labelled a Devil, if I don't do my job I'm # useless.... jeez... not a lot of options here ...

reply to post by truthseeker84
I guess is has more to do with how aware of yourself and the rest of the world, most people would probably not kill others by choice. If you choose to be a professional sniper then well you are technically a killer by choice. Did he choose his career or did he just go along with the path chosen for him?

It depends on a lot of events and his personal experience, if he knew the full story he most likely would not have gone there to become what he is. Its nothing wrong with being a sniper prepared to defend his soil from invaders but going as an invader is a different story, but as I've said I don't think he really knew what was going on, I hope not.

Who is the monster ?
You ask for us to lay down our arms and stop following orders?
We will be invaded in a week.
By others who covet our possessions and lands.
Again I am not at all happy with the lies but only the liars are at fault here. Honest men are dying placed there by these liars.
As to who the liars order us to kill we will still do it,that is the nature of a warrior.
I cannot and will not discuss this issue with ANY one outside my nationstate as I don't know them.
and as can be clearly seen our enemies do legitimately threaten us.so we will have a strong tool I don't want to alienate you but if that bothers you I'm not going to apologize for duty.
We aren't the monsters here.
I do know the truth of warfare and yet I still chose it, because I didn't want those who can't do it as well as I to get put out there to die.
PROTECTORS aren't bad guys and I hope you can trust me THEY WILL NOT TURN ON US IN OUR OWN COUNTRY. Those who do will get cut up by the same skill we used in all of our prior wars.
They can't train against our skills,just a demographic,that is the failure of politics when bullets fly.

Originally posted by RMFX1

Originally posted by sulaw
I see your point as well. Though as a US citizen this is a man that defended US freedom (mine and yours pending citizenship) whether by being a political puppet or not.

He wasn't defending your freedom. None of the people shot by him were on or close to U.S soil. And none of them were attacking you. He was defending his own invading force. Nothing more.

And I agree with the OP. This individual was cold, as could be seen in his interviews. Something was missing there.

Listen friend.

He did not like his enemy. Simple basic human instinct to want to KILL your enemies.

He was good at it, your but hurt because of it. Get over it.

Ventilating perps is a good thing, the more, the better the world is.

Keep popping them with extreme prejudice fellas/gals. Your makeing the world a better place, one 7.62 X .51 at a time.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Boom Goes the Dynamite~ well put star for you~!!! Props and I believe every word you've said, as I hear this more often that not from our Military Servicemen!!!

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
You ask for us to lay down our arms and stop following orders?
We will be invaded in a week.

Then pick them back up???

I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about national armies staying within their own borders until there is an invasion.

No one would criticize a soldier for defending his or her home country. The issue is most do not consider Iraq and Afghanistan, and Yemen, and Mali, and all of these other places to be a genuine threat to the West.

Our wealth? Our slavery-subsidized way of life? Our stolen resources?
Yeah, maybe... but are they ours? Do we deserve them?

If the Western world's destiny is to go down in ashes doing what is right, I'll go down with them proud. If the Western world's destiny is to take and take because we're scared someone else might take, then I'll continue to be the thorn in everyone's side saying we are wrong.

reply to post by NavyDoc


What about the White Death?
He killed 505 people.


en.wikipedia.org...

During the Winter War (1939–1940) between Finland and the Soviet Union, Häyhä served as a sniper for the Finnish Army against the Red Army in the 6th Company of JR 34 on the Kollaa River. In temperatures between -40° and −20 °C (−4 °F), dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers.[2][4] A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was made for the Finnish snipers. Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days – in other words, an average of five kills per day – at a time of year with very few hours of daylight.[5][6][7]

Häyhä used a Finnish militia variant of the Russian-made Mosin-Nagant rifle, the White Guard M/28-30 "Pystykorva" (literally Spitz, due to the sight's resemblance) chambered in 7.62x54R, the Finnish Mosin-Nagant cartridge, because it suited his small frame (5 ft 3 in/1.60 m). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present a smaller target for the enemy—a sniper must raise his head higher when using a telescopic sight—for reliability—a telescopic sight's glass can fog up easily in cold weather—and for aid in concealment as sunlight glare in telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position.

The Soviets tried several ploys to get rid of Häyhä, including counter-snipers and artillery strikes. On March 6, 1940, Häyhä was shot in his lower left jaw by a Russian soldier during combat. The bullet tumbled upon impact and exited his head. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his head was missing", but he was not dead: he regained consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared. Shortly after the war, Häyhä was promoted from Alikersantti (Corporal) to Vänrikki (Second Lieutenant) by Field Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. No one else has gained rank so quickly in Finland's military history.