Chris Kyle (US Sniper) - You see a hero. I see a devil

reply to post by NavyDoc

Would you say the same thing about Vasily Zaytsev He killed over 400 Nazis as a sniper. WOuld he be a hero or murderer to you guys?

It's a very interesting question - can we say the two wars are the same?

Who invaded who?

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by Wang Tang

 

That's a good point...but it begs the question of why soldiers and, indeed, even citizens condone by inaction or lack of protest wars they don't feel justified.

It's wrong either way but soldiers get paid to compromise their ethics.

I wish I could give you an applause for that one

Sometimes I hear soldiers speak against policy and say they disagree with the wars - but so many other things come into play. It rarely ever amounts to actual dissent.

A soldier must be a good soldier first and foremost

Then they come home and get to live with the things they've seen and done. They're expected to just meld back into society and carry on like nothing happened

They can embrace it all and go that direction - but the numbers on substance abuse, depression and suicide tell another story

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by RedbeardedFoo
reply to post by Wang Tang

 

I don't understand, so you like to hang out with people that have no problem blowing another humans brains out because there armed and terrified of the invading force that has without probable cause come to there country and bombed raped and pillaged like Vikings, nice! u sound classy

You need to do some research on the Taliban, who they are, what they're about, and what they like to do to people..ordinary innocent men women and children.

Trying to be morally superior is great and all, but it denotes arrogance and ignorance.

You get this attitude all the time from people who know squat about the actual conflict going on in Afghanistan. Like the Taliban are some kind of honorable resistance force fending off the evil invaders and protecting the women and children....pfff! The ordinary Afghans are terrified of the Taliban and their brutal, repressive, murderous, medieval regime.

edit on 21-2-2013 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

Very true. I posted on page 9 and stood up for my buddy over there now. The locals welcome them, they invite them into their homes for meals, and good meals too. The locals alert them when taliban is in the area. Taliban are afraid of the US Military. My friend says they more often then not turn, run, or walk away very quickly as soon as he sees one, and he can tell because of the "mean mug" the taliban give back. They also don't like to fight face to face, they use IEDs, shoot random bullets from far away in his direction, but rarely that will do anything besides piss of the US Army and send them out after the whacky taliban guy.

He carried out his duty and went above and beyond doing so. He was an honorable brave man who is reflected by the fact that he was awarded the Bronze and Silver Star medals multiple times. For those who ignore those feats I inclined to believe you do not understand the meaning behind those medals. Those medals just by themselves prove he was a hero.
The problem is with most people and discussing the topic is that many are simply ignorant about the subject they simply do not understand. Ignorance can be overcome by seeking knowledge however see there are still those who wish to remain ignorant. If they were to educate themselves on the subject matter then they would have to change their stance and they know that so it is easier to remain the way they are for some it is because they are obtuse, or stubborn basically they can’t stand admitting when they are wrong.

Yes war is bad killing sucks but the world we live in it is a fact of life. If it wasn’t for the brave men and women who volunteer to the service and dedicate their lives then the government would have no choice but to implement the draft. It has been their sacrifices that have insured you freedoms.

A soldier is not responsible for the politics that start wars some are not concerned about the politics their job is to live up to the Oath the swore to.

In utopia, imaginary world then sure everyone could just refuse to fight but that is a factious world it doesn’t exist aside from in some others mind. While that dream is beautiful it is also broken flawed and an unattainable goal. The real world sucks it is harsh and unforgiving but it also has so much good in it to and those soldiers have decided to give something of them to protect this country/ world for the parts that are good. If we are seen as evil for protecting those things or fighting those who would take away or destroying those thing then so be it we are strong both mentally and physically to where we can bear those burdens.

For those who wish to talk down to or bad mouth our soldiers I forgive you. I forgive you because you are nave and you know no better maybe it is better that way for you to not understand you may not be strong enough to except the truth about this world but it is OK My soldiers and I will carry the burden for you so you can remain unaware and live your life safely without threat from enemies foreign and domestic simply for speaking your mind guaranteed by the constitution of the united states of America. T be honest when a civilian thanks me for my service it always feels weird anyway I usually say you’re welcome we always did our best I hope we made you proude.



To directly disagree with the OP the man Chris Kyle was defiantly a Hero. The Ones that made the decisions on where to send him or gave the orders of who were to be killed are in no way heroes they are simple pencil pushers body counters to sum them up they are politicians the reason for wars and sometimes the reason why wars cannot be won. They are an entirely different animal that a soldier.

This is my opinion and nothing more with what I am about to write. Our country screwed up by electing official and presidents where the only see the military as a tool those politicians at least 95% of them have never served there county where they gave there life to the country and it is my opinion that it is for that reason that problems in the world arise where the military is used without first exploring other avenues.

George Washington knew this. Keep in mind most of our founding fathers were also soldiers at some point.
They had walked in the soldiers shoes to where the respected those who still did and understood the price of war to where diplomacy was valued. There are many differences between the leaders of today and then. I do not see the “progress that has been made in politics as progress” it has been part of our downfall but there is still hope no matter how dim it may be it still exists.

An interesting book to read is Starship troopers not the movie the movie was crap but the book explains a Social economic political system that one day we may need to adopt. BTW there are no bugs in the book.


My previous post on this issue says mare.

HEY!!!!

Let's not make this personal!
Stay on topic!!!

Go After the Ball, Not the Player!

You are responsible for your own posts.

We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.

I'm beginning to feel like there is a common thread among the mentality of soldiers after following this thread for a while.

Let me just ask, who was it that first told you that it is not up to the soldier to make political and moral decisions for themselves and to "be a tool, the best tool"?

I'm thinking it was someone in the military. Someone in a position of authority. I'd be genuinely curious to find out.

Personally I think it would pay to revisit the Nuremberg Trials and remind ourselves what our father's father's army felt about this way of thinking.

It genuinely concerns me how our soldiers are being trained, mentally. No one can deny your physical and skills training is top notch. It is the mental training that leaves something to be desired. Combine the appalling rape statistics and the documented war crimes and the suicides, the army is beginning to have the same image problem as the police.

Something is rotten. Perhaps even at a systemic level. I don't know.

Originally posted by guanyu
I'm beginning to feel like there is a common thread among the mentality of soldiers after following this thread for a while.

Let me just ask, who was it that first told you that it is not up to the soldier to make political and moral decisions for themselves and to "be a tool, the best tool"?

It's not the military's place to make policy. That's for the government. The military executes the policy.

A soldier's place is to obey lawful orders. If the order is lawful, you don't have a huge amount of flexibility in choosing to ignore it, whether you find it moral or politically expedient, desirable or repugnant.

I'm thinking it was someone in the military. Someone in a position of authority. I'd be genuinely curious to find out.

That would be the someone named UCMJ.

Personally I think it would pay to revisit the Nuremberg Trials and remind ourselves what our father's father's army felt about this way of thinking.

They felt you had to obey lawful orders too.

In general, you get a periodic review of the rules of engagement and LOAC until you get tired of it. It's not like they turn you loose to shoot everything that's moving around.

He was in the military and his job was taking out enemy combatants to protect his solders.

You have the enemy spitting hundreds of ak47 rounds at you, mortars, Machine guns, rocket launchers etc, and you are pinned down and life is possibly close to the end for your troops.

Its either you or the bad guys on the receiving end of your weapon, a life or death struggle.

If you think he is an evil murderer you are wrong and you would be locking up almost everybody in combat ever who ever fired his weapon.

He was following orders and doing his job.

He was killed because he talked too much and pissed off the wrong people.

REMEMBER now its legal for the President to sanction assassinations.

If you want to blame somebody you need to blame all his superiors up to and including Obama, Bush etc.

TPTB wanted these wars and in doing so they might as well be pulling the triggers themselves.

I am not talking about 150 people - I am talking about hundreds of thousands, millions of people, innocent people.

The Arab Spring was pushed to fruition by who ?? Yep Obama.
How many innocent people have just died just in Egypt and Libya and Syria ??

Re-think and let the blame for the loss of life fall where it should.

He was a killer in war, but not at home and could turn it off and he was trying to help vets with problems.

He was a real wartime hero, because he saved countless American solders lives on the battlefield.

Right now you obviously are not living in the real world.

If you want to complain about killing in wartime on battlefields you need to start at the highest levels because that is where the blame really should be, not with a ground pounder saving his fellow soldiers from death.

Originally posted by sulaw
I see your point as well. Though as a US citizen this is a man that defended US freedom (mine and yours pending citizenship) whether by being a political puppet or not. He was an outstanding shot at that. Do I see a reason to idolize him? No. Is he a hero? Yes, in the eyes of the United States he is a patriot who went behind enemy lines putting his life and his spoters life at stake. (Have you defended the lives of Americans and gone behind enemy lines? Your OP is a hypocritical statement at best as not everyone is passive) Calling him a devil? Meh~ To each there own but I would show more support to the troops whether your believe in your gov't or not as they are our boy's and defending our freedoms regardless of what they are used for.

I agree with you, except for the "defending our freedoms" bit. What happens in the middle east has nothing to do with our freedoms, short of requiring us to work a LOT of hours to pay for the wars there (currently about 15-20% of our entire national debt is because of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.) the only hit my freedom ever took in relation to the middle east came from congress in 2001 and the years to follow.

Explain to me the political and moral decision making that goes into a sniper pulling the trigger to kill a key Taliban leader that was responsible for the deaths of many Americans, and would have continued to kill Americans had he not been neutralized?

When you are a soldier, you kill to survive, and to protect your fellow soldiers. If you refuse to fight, someone else who is less capable will fill your spot. If the entire military refuses to fight because they claim the war is unjust, the civilian authority of our country will be de-legitimized and our country will cease to function.

How is this guy defending my "freedom" last time I checked I got my freedom because the black people stood up to the racist government of the USA and demanded the rights which whites enjoyed.

Chris Kyle didn't stand up to my civil rights. No he killed for a administration that lied to the American Public that Iraq had WMD's; perpetuated a lie that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9-11/Antrax. This guy is a stupid nationalist puppet willing to murder without as much as blinking an eye and asking why is he even killing in said country we invaded.


I got my gun; I can defend myself assholes. I don't need some asshole killing because he is "defending" my freedom.

Originally posted by atomicn


I got my gun; I can defend myself assholes. I don't need some asshole killing because he is "defending" my freedom.

Good luck defending yourself with a gun against a hijacked Boeing 767.

There is this concept called preventative war that none of you seem to understand. It is part of a bigger moral theory called just war theory, which once again none of you seem to understand.

Originally posted by Lingweenie
Murdering other people is not normal behavior whatsoever. It doesn't matter if it's for justice, in the name of god, or terrorizing for the sake of terrorizing.

Obviously not a student of Human behavior.
We are animals on top of the food chain just like any other top predator and Its in our nature to kill, mame, violence etc no matter if you want to admit it or not. Just look what is on broadcast TV lately.

Its been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.

Yes I wish all of it would stop too, but there are just too many psychopaths vs truly peaceful people out there
in the world.

I figure about 2 out of 100 psychopaths so roughly about 140,000,000.

Originally posted by Wang Tang

Originally posted by atomicn


I got my gun; I can defend myself assholes. I don't need some asshole killing because he is "defending" my freedom.

Good luck defending yourself with a gun against a hijacked Boeing 767.

There is this concept called preventative war that none of you seem to understand. It is part of a bigger moral theory called just war theory, which once again none of you seem to understand.

...or entirely understand, as did US leaders for nearly two centuries..but don't agree with.

reply to post by RedbeardedFoo


Wow I have been told off.Answer the question with deflection to keep your thoughts in the wrong direction.
I've seen rhyming get through to mentally challenged children did it help you?

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by RedbeardedFoo
reply to post by Wang Tang

 

I don't understand, so you like to hang out with people that have no problem blowing another humans brains out because there armed and terrified of the invading force that has without probable cause come to there country and bombed raped and pillaged like Vikings, nice! u sound classy

You need to do some research on the Taliban, who they are, what they're about, and what they like to do to people..ordinary innocent men women and children.

Trying to be morally superior is great and all, but it denotes arrogance and ignorance.

You get this attitude all the time from people who know squat about the actual conflict going on in Afghanistan. Like the Taliban are some kind of honorable resistance force fending off the evil invaders and protecting the women and children....pfff! The ordinary Afghans are terrified of the Taliban and their brutal, repressive, murderous, medieval regime.

The afghans are terrified because most of the energy spent over there is on protecting poppy fields....the soldiers care about social reform like a leach cares about draining its host of too much blood....Poppy Fields broooooooo

please keep calling me morally superior because I don't support psychopathic behavior...cheers!

edit on 21-2-2013 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

For those who feel that our soldiers are not defending your freedoms I could spend hours explaining this to you however what I can do is make a statement where you should at the very least admit that because that soldier is their your life is better.

Here is my point. These recent wars have been fought by an all-volunteer military they are highly motivated, hardworking and professional and quite possibly the best standing military in our history.

(Personal feelings aside)
These wars are historically new to us in many ways one is that takes were not raised for the first time ever to fund wars. That is something you should at least know. Two these are the first wars where the US government has not implemented the draft. This is a feat within itself.

In the past there were ways to avoid the draft
A conscientious objector this was not always granted I hope you never had a fistfight in life, stated or done things in your life that show that you are not being truthful but even then they could relegate a roll to you that would keep you away from the fighting. Generally it would be religious in nature. Mitt Romney got out of Vietnam that way.
B attending college but that usually meant your grades needed to be acceptable.
C proves a hardship such as you have a special needs child or support your parents you would need to prove this.
D is physically unfit if you have series health issues you were not capable.
E criminal history excludes you.

Here are is more information
www.ehow.com...
Those are the legal ways to avoid the draft but there are illegal ways.
A Draft dodgers were abundant in Vietnam eventually they were forgiven but it isn’t always a guarantee. Canada would not hide you now per some treaties and the fact that they sent some of their own troops would probably make you a hated person there.
You could hide in the states but forget about finding a job you would be looking over your shoulder constantly.
The best countries would probably be in Central America Costa Rica is nice but it is almost as expensive as the states nowadays. There are definite countries you could run to but you couldn’t come back legally unless they granted amnesty after the war.
Point is if you really wanted to you could get out of being drafted.

Personally the way I feel about the draft and how taxes have fallen for these wars is that it has been or castrated that way to lessen the impact on the US people. It is barely mentioned anymore that we are at war so people tend to not care as much if it did affect them. I am actually for raising taxes during war we didn’t and the war has drug on and our debt has gone through the roof it was completely irresponsible. I also feel that the draft should have been instated to make those rich family’s do their part to make it an issue that we are at war then maybe the wars would have been over already. It was needed for some time just myself was stoplossed 3 times that was because they didn’t have enough soldiers to fill the positions needed. End of opinion
The downside of draft is that the quality of soldiers drop and morale is hurt but those wars needed it.

In summation for those who state that our soldiers are not fighting for you or your freedoms you should take a minute and think about these things because if it were not for those brave soldiers that volunteered their lives and gave up their freedoms in the way they did and the numbers that did there would have been a great many of you either out there with them trying to scam your way out of it or running from it.

I am sure I will get some smart arse comments about this post some that will try to derail from the subject or find an instance that is an exception from the rule. But take your time posting I am tired and will be going to bed so I will respond to those posters that demonstrate some honesty and common sense tomorrow.

Mr Rabbit we need men like Chris kyle to destroy our enemies, wish we had 1000 men like him.Not weaklings who do not have the strength or conviction to protect themselves their nation or their fellow soldiers. If only we had rules of engagement that allowed our men to eradicate these throwbacks. Imagine not being able to fire on the enemy until they set up their weapons and fire first! So don't get weak kneed. Chris left his family for long periods of time and saved many many family's in this nation from losing their sons.Our present administration(B.O) hates men like Chris- the loyalty, the bravery the selflessness, the honor- all unknown quality's to the Kenyan communist. Chris Kyle is an American hero." Extremism in the cause of liberty is no vice"

reply to post by TXRabbit


I see only glorification of war here. If that's patriotism, then you can stick your flag up your ass. I want no part of it.