Qur'an a Code for living a good life

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by b14warrior

 

It's in the commentaries, there are quite a few of them written, the Tafsir according to this woman, is a set of commentaries written to clarify and expand upon the words of the Prophet Mohammed, most of them can be found online. One translation of a Tafsir comes out in English as:

From Bukhari's Hadith 3.786: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle.

and

From Ibn Sa'd page 250: Verily a woman of the Jews of Khaibar presented poisoned (meat of) goat to the apostle of Allah. The he recognized that it was poisoned, so he sent for her and asked her, "What induced you to do what you have done?" She replied, "I thought if you are a prophet, Allah will inform you, and if you are a pretender, I shall relieve people of you. When the apostle of Allah felt sick, he got himself "cupped".

and the end of another Ibn Sa'd

The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away. During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein.

edit on 20-2-2013 by vkey08 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-2-2013 by vkey08 because: (no reason given)

You are trying to prove a point by stretching a small fact so much that your motives get transpanent.
Yes in a ayah of Qur'an Allah says that if Muhammad pbuh says anything by himself He will kill him(cut the life vein/aorta)
and when near his death time Muhammad pbuh said his time to go has come(cut the life vein) metaphorically, you actually relate it as a proof to prove whatever you intend to and claim a muslim told you this before leaving islam,
hmm.. makes me seriously question, why you say what you say and why would you say what you would say after this..
Anyways, if you have any questions regarding the OP, you are welcomed to ask.

Originally posted by vkey08

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by logical7

 

So will you make a code that pleases you but slowly sabbotage the society that you live in?

As I see it its the people that claim to follow these books that are sabotaging the society that we live in , both west and east follow their books religiously (pun intended) yet their actions mostly run counter to the teachings of their chosen codes , corruption , abuse and war abound .

My code will not sabotage society as my code is based in society , a code that millions of people that bother to stand up and protest the actions of those in charge also believe in ....Peace and freedom .

do you really think that majority follow their Holy books? Or they also make their own code and make ego as their religion. The OP is equally harsh to self proclaimed religious and righteous people. Qur'an actually criticizes them more strongly than atheists as at least atheists are honest while these theists are hypocrites.
About the code, did you find anything in OP thats against your code?

Yes there's something in your OP that is violently against my code:

“Men are the protectors/guardians and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore/so the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to the husband), and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct (nushuz)

1) I need no MAN to protect and guard me, and 2) I will not be obedient to any MAN just because some dude 2000 years ago said so..

good for you but wives who love their husband will refrain from things that make the husband feel unloved and that becomes a form of worship in islam deserving reward from God too, the husand does his duty to protect and make the wife feel secure, loved and taken care of and the outcome is a great relationship. I'l choose this anytime!

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by logical7

 

About the code, did you find anything in OP thats against your code?

By freedom I mean freedom of mind and spirit , religion requires that you give your mind to it .

yes, but do you think you are more free if you give mind to one thing rather than other? I mean arent you always giving your mind to something all the time, religion just gives a bit of consistency and liberates you to explore you potentials by getting rid of everyday nitty gritty 'what to do, what not to do'
i would myself hate being shackled but a balance and order would actually help me look at more important things in life.
Its how you look at religion, shackles or a liberating framework made for you so that you dont have to start from scratch.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


i am also just asking to take whatever appeals to your rational mind and not deny it just because you dont like the source.
Does 'an entity' exists is another topic, actually i recently started a thread about it too.
If you have any rational criticism about anything in the OP(except theism) then do mention it.

reply to post by logical7


I dunno ... I think that's still like putting women subservient to men. Now I was married, it was a 50.50 partnership, no one over the other, we both took care of the girls we both did shopping, cleaning etc.. If we got in a fight I wasn't expected to just back down because I had to respect him (rest his soul, he died 6 years ago, but I digress)

I think under your ideals, I would suffocate... Sorry no sale..

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by logical7

 

I dunno ... I think that's still like putting women subservient to men. Now I was married, it was a 50.50 partnership, no one over the other, we both took care of the girls we both did shopping, cleaning etc.. If we got in a fight I wasn't expected to just back down because I had to respect him (rest his soul, he died 6 years ago, but I digress)

I think under your ideals, I would suffocate... Sorry no sale..

who is subservient to whom? The verse doesnt say subservient, the verse doesnt even say who has a degree above other. Men objectively have more strength so get guard duty, how is a guard dominant over the guarded? Is a president subservient to his security because he obeys them in matters of security?
Women are nourishers and so get other duties.
You would be surprised to know that a muslim wife is not obliged to cook or clean. Its husband's responsibility to provide her needs, however if she does it, the husband has to be grateful but cant force her.
You dont have to buy it, but i thank you as your questions have helped me clear many things to other readers who may go and search authentic sources and get more informed. Thanks for helping clear misunderstandings about islam

reply to post by vkey08


Thanks for the info.
Very interesting.

reply to post by logical7


So ,,, you're saying the Tafsir aren't legit sources?

Isn't that considered blasphemy?

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by logical7

 

So ,,, you're saying the Tafsir aren't legit sources?

Isn't that considered blasphemy?

Tafsir is just a word meaning exgesis, its not a holy book, the Holy Book is Qur'an.
Many scholars wrote many tafsirs of Qur'an and what you tried to prove was easily answered using your own sources.
Do you have anymore querries about OP or what Qur'an says about any areas of life? You are most welcomed to ask that, dont make this an arguement that you have to win, i did not start the thread to win, just to inform.

As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct (nushuz), admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) separate from them; but if they obey you, seek not against them Means (of annoyance)

This was my favourite bit.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by logical7

 

The Qur'an is the same as the Bible in that they are books written to give people of their time rules and regulations to follow , they have both over time been interpreted in ways that suits the people in charge and used as a justification for the actions taken in their name .

It's the 21st century now and people need to define their own moral code and not be tied to a tool of control , no book can tell you how to live the life that is right for you .

are you saying the moral code in the OP doesnt apply to this 21st century?
It is sure a tool of control in a way but interestingly it seems that way only to the 'uncontrolled'
need for unlimited freedom also demands that the individual lives alone because being in a society needs letting go of some freedom as it conflicts with common interests of the society. Even if you make your own code, you'l reach the same code but if its not perfect for the society then the society will start to decay and fall apart. So will you make a code that pleases you but slowly sabbotage the society that you live in?

They are indoctrinating and tell do this or you are in trouble. Normal dualistic bullying from humans/priests/groupings who are still eating the symbolic apple from Genesis believing they know good from evil in their limited state and corrupted by ego. What you call god or Allah is from my point of view not that small minded. This is human dogma and might be created on spiritual grounds but has lost all the glow from the light they came from, in my view.

Trust highest ideals and what have created those ideals and reject human dogmatic religion in all forms. Find what Jesus and Buddha found and not what many priest in their ignorance thinks it is about. You will feel it when you hit the mark. Faith is not the same as knowing.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by logical7

 

Originally posted by logical7
will you agree to follow at least that which you consider good and true in the holy books? Or reject all with an excuse that it also has bad things, that would be a weak, almost lame rationalisation, right?

I will reject all, not because there is good and bad in them all, but because they are words of man... I will lead my own life and not depend on other men to tell me how to behave, whom to revere or how to live my life.

To me, picking one to live by just because I need something to "follow" is a lame rationalization. We know what we need to know to make it through this life.

what you know was discovered by men too, you are dependent on men to tell you whatever you know and have to trust that they knew it right.
For you to make it through life in a good way, you should know human psychology, economics (every field that would interact with you) in detail so that you make knowledgeable choices, without this it would be like throwing darts in the dark, it would sure hurt someone!

Funny hearing from a person believing in god thinking that said god cannot communicate with humans. You seem to be under the impression that a human mind cannot/be allowed to break thru to the other side and get answers and feel the nature of what is on the other side.

So much fear for choosing wrong when wrong most of the time is only a view and have no real value in the symbiotic relationship between all souls. But then most humans are afraid to take the step needed to be a mystic and would rather be on the same level of understanding as their grouping. And I understand why. People who believe in religion but are disconnected from god are dangerous in their small mindedness thinking they follow god.

Above are my small egos view based on thought from experiance. It will not be the whole truth because I am not allowed to know all yet so my views are simplifications and therefor in a way lies. But then only people who know everything know the real truth. Everybody else is just fooling themselves believing they have any clue what truth really is.

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by logical7

 

.......It's the 21st century now and people need to define their own moral code and not be tied to a tool of control , no book can tell you how to live the life that is right for you .

Don't be an complete plonker.

.....so if your moral code is like Anders Behring Breivik, then it gives you the right to kill people because of your OWN MORAL CODE?????

I have so say it, this will probably be deleted but it needs to be stated. You are a moron. This needs to be clear that your type of thinking allows anything, and whatever someone does to you that you don't like, you have no right to question it!

In fact, normally you would have every right to question my calling you an idiot and a moron. (very light description really) But by your own statement in your last sentence you don't have that right now.

No wonder the world is mad, it's full of fools.

I for one with all the "holy books" no longer existed. Then there would be no cause for extremists to kill innocent humans for the sake of their precious scriptures having been blasphemed.

I am also not advocating the forcible extermination of this books, but in a fantasy....oh, in a fantasy.

I can not see myself going to any source that inspires such vile behaviour. It is vary hard to convince an average person to burn an orphanage full of children, but tag divine mandate, a special book, and “faith” on to the end of the crow bar and you can pry good people into just about anything.

Thank you for the OP.

reply to post by pacifier2012

Don't be an complete plonker. .....
so if your moral code is like Anders Behring Breivik, then it gives you the right to kill people because of your OWN MORAL CODE?????

So I believe in peace and freedom and that makes me like Anders Breivik .... Wow , and you call me an idiot

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by bloodreviara
To accept what is in the book you must take everything it says, you
cannot take the good and pretend the bad does not exist, just like
the bible, both encourage horrid atrocities in the name of their one
true god and then claim to be peaceful, there is a huge difference
between the majority of its followers being peaceful and it being
a peaceful idea, it is not peaceful anymore then the truth in the bible
is, just the majority of those who follow it are more moral hence more
peaceful than the book they claim.

thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, however lets agree with you, then will you agree to follow at least that which you consider good and true in the holy books? Or reject all with an excuse that it also has bad things, that would be a weak, almost lame rationalisation, right?

Think about it, Logical. A man gets in a rage and kills his neighbor, but he has been a good man all of his life. Do we say, 'Well, part of him is good so we'll just let him go free.' ? No, that's not going to happen. A thousand good things does not wash away one bad thing. Throw the biblical books out.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

They are indoctrinating and tell do this or you are in trouble. Normal dualistic bullying from humans/priests/ groupings who are still eating the symbolic apple from Genesis believing they know good from evil in their limited state and corrupted by ego.

there is part truth in what you say, religion can be used for power, but a code of conduct is not bad per se. Islam doesnt agree with following priests/imams blindly.
Islam is also not dualistic. It rather is monistic.
There is no apple of knowledge in islam too.
This is a problem when islam is assumed to be almost completely like christianity except the part of God having a son.

What you call god or Allah is from my
point of view not that small minded.
This is human dogma and might be
created on spiritual grounds but has
lost all the glow from the light they came from, in my view.

yes spirituality is necessary along with the code or its just a skeleton of what it was supposed to be. However maybe you'l agree that the code can also help spark and nurture spirituality by putting beliefs into everyday actions and providing a discipline.
Allah is not narrow minded but its arrogant to assume that following a code is below one's spirituality, because spirituality increases humility.

Trust highest ideals and what have
created those ideals and reject human
dogmatic religion in all forms. Find
what Jesus and Buddha found and
not what many priest in their
ignorance thinks it is about. You will feel it when you hit the mark. Faith is
not the same as knowing.

you are just expressing your views but they are not fully related to the OP. Even if you dont have a "dogmatic" religion, you'l still follow some code if you want to live in a society and that code would be proportionally better to your spirituality moving towards the code in OP. Unless you choose to be a monk, interestingly even they have a code.
Do you think that the 'knowing' comes in a flash and not requires the receptiveness for it? The code prepares for it and later preserves and strengthens it.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

But then most humans are afraid to take the step needed to be a mystic and would rather be on the same level of understanding as their grouping.

even a mystic needs a mentor/guru to guide him/her and the mentor often puts the student at tasks to clean away the ego/self and only then the higher truths can be recognised. Its easy to be a mystic and try reach the truth. Its more difficult to be in the world and do the duties, honour relationships and bonds yet remain connected to the Creator as if only He is the reality/the Truth.
This is taught in islam however not everyone can be capable to achieve it fully but its not ever about achieving, its about keep trying..

reply to post by Philodemus

I for one with all the "holy books" no longer existed. Then there would be no cause for extremists to kill innocent humans for the sake of their precious scriptures having been blasphemed.

do you know that extremism is a product of secularism? When laws made by humans are more enforced and obeyed and laws of nature are disregarded then extremism gets born. Its not right but its also not a consequence of "holy books" the cause is extreme secularism.
In your own example the killing occured due to blasphemy but why was the blasphemy done? Who started the circle? Who made religion unimportant even ok to insult and ridicule in a democracy where the majority believes in one?

It is vary hard to convince
an average person to burn an
orphanage full of children, but tag
divine mandate, a special book, and “faith” on to the end of the crow bar
and you can pry good people into just
about anything.

there would be people in the "non-faith" group ready to do the same in the name of eradicating "faith" if they were large enough in numbers and they wouldnt even have excuse of a 'divine mandate' maybe they do worship the goddess of reasoning and she inspired them!

reply to post by jiggerj

Think about it, Logical. A man gets in a rage and kills his neighbor, but he has been a good man all of his life. Do we say, 'Well, part of him is good so we'll just let him go free.' ? No, that's not going to happen. A thousand good things does not wash away one bad thing. Throw the biblical books out.

what if the man did it because he watched many violent shows on tv, would you publicly execute the tv or the man?
Everyone has a brain and its desirable to be used. Some dont use it and can find excuse for violence even in a book of fairy tales.
You look at human actions to interpret and judge an inanimate book/religion.
Who will you blame if an atheist did a shoot out in a church? Atheism? Just to be impartial, Where do you pin the blame of all the crimes done by atheists?if a theist's religion takes the blame for his crime.
Atheists have their own idols/celebrity atheists who have a lot of power and abuse it. Its a religion in every sense, just doesnt have that high following.