About Libertarians

reply to post by ANOK


They never even had a real communist government before.

They just use marxism to get as close to that arbitrary point but then it just breaks down.

They are all just varying levels of authoritarian statist socialism. Look at Cuba,USSR or China.

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman

They never even had a real communist government before.

They just use marxism to get as close to that arbitrary point but then it just breaks down.

They are all just varying levels of authoritarian statist socialism. Look at Cuba,USSR or China.

First off there are no "Communist" governments, Communism is an economic system.

They used Marxism to gain state control, not so as to implement communism.

Yes they are authoritarian systems, not communist/socialist. They didn't break down because of communism/socialism because they did not have communist/socialist economies, they are authoritarian governments with state-capitalist economies.

Communism/socialism has nothing to do with so called "communist" countries. The original communist/socialists were anti-state. The most obvious proof it's not an authoritarian government system is the fact, that always seems to be ignored, that Anarchists are communists and socialists.

Libertarian socialism is anarchism.

“Freedom without socialism is privilege, and injustice, Socialism without freedom is slavery, and brutality” Mikhail Bakunin

"Anarchism is stateless socialism" Mikhail Bakunin

Socialism can be many, very different, things. For anarchists it must be libertarian, indeed class struggle anarchists often interchangeably describe themselves as libertarian socialists or libertarian communists.

Anarchists are socialists who believe that socialism must be built out of the struggles of working class people, acting in their own class interests. ‘Socialism’ cannot be imposed from above....

....**We believe in workers control, in workers running their own communities and workplaces because, simply put, they are the people best placed to do it.**

**That is socialism/communism.

What is Socialism? An Anarchist Perspective.

The anarchist flag is red and black, red for socialism/communism, black for anti-state.

First used by anarchists during the Spanish Civil War: The red flag of socialism (Confederación Nacional del Trabajo) and the black flag of anarchism (Federación Anarquista Ibérica). The red and black colours are also often used by the syndicalism movement [trade unionism]. Marcus Wendel, 16 Aug 1999

Communist society is, as such, a STATELESS society. If this is the case - and there is no doubt that it is - then what, in reality, does the distinction between anarchists and marxist communists consist of? Does the distinction, as such, vanish at least when it comes to examining the problem of the society to come and the "ultimate goal"?

No, the distinction does exist; but it is to be found elsewhere; and can be defined as a distinction between production centralised under large trusts and small, decentralised production.

We communists believe not only that the society of the future must free itself of the exploitation of man, but also that it will have to ensure for man the greatest possible independence of the nature that surrounds him, that it will reduce to a minimum "the time spent of socially necessary labour", developing the social forces of production to a maximum and likewise the productivity itself of social labour.

Nikolai Bukharin Anarchy and Scientific Communism

reply to post by guanyu


It's not an oxymoron because of government, it's an oxymoron because of capitalism.

Capitalism is an authoritarian economic system, and is not consistent with liberty.

Capitalism is privilege for the few.

reply to post by ANOK


See you have the real version of communism(anarchocommunism). Not the monster marx built.
There are no anarchocommunist regimes.

But there are state capitalist regimes(like china)?


Libertarian socialism(anarchism) is stateless socialism.

What happens when you have a state "help" implement socialism? USSR,venezuela,cuba,USA?

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman
reply to post by ANOK

 

See you have the real version of communism(anarchocommunism). Not the monster marx built.
There are no anarchocommunist regimes.

Marx didn't build a monster, he really didn't do that much at all. Marx did not invent communism, socialism, nor even what became know as Marxism. Marxism came from the Communist Manifesto, that was an update of the original draft written by Engels. Marx was commissioned by the Communist League to finish the book. The contents of the book was the plan the Communist League came up with after a meeting of many communists in London.

Communism was always state free. Read Marx, and this will become clear.

The right wing establishment simply used a twisted version of socialism in order to maintain control of the workers. Communism has nothing to do with state systems. Marxism called for a temporary state system in order to make the move to communism. The Marxist state system is not communism.

You have to understand how it was in the 1800's, the workers were extremely militant and pro-socialist. They wanted to own their own workplaces. They had not yet been raised on a diet of TV propaganda that has made modern workers passive. They were a real threat to the establishment, so the establishments used their own language in order to gain their support. It is a classic manauver, Hitler did the same thing to fool German workers into voting for him.

But there are state capitalist regimes(like china)?

Libertarian socialism(anarchism) is stateless socialism.

What happens when you have a state "help" implement socialism? USSR,venezuela,cuba,USA?

Once again USSR etc., were NOT socialist. I already explain this, socialism/communism is worker ownership. The USSR etc., had state capitalist economies.

USA? LOL.

So tell me what is your definition of socialism? If you understand that anarchists are socialists, then how can socialism ever be a state system? Socialism/communism is an economic system, not a form of government.
There can be a socialist economy with a state system, but the state itself would not be socialist.

Also with a socialist economy the state would be completely different than it is now, or how it was in the USSR.
State systems, like capitalists, get their power from wealth, or rather the mass inequality of wealth. If the workers owned the means of production it would be really hard for anyone, including the state, to have that much power that you have no way of stopping it.

Capitalism is what gives governments, and individuals, their power and authority. It is the private ownership of the means to produce, whether that is by a government or by an individual, that gives them their authority.

reply to post by ANOK


Who changed the definition of real (stateless) communism?

How can we reliably change from authoritarian fake-capitalism to a more libertarian real capitalism?

How do you in phases get people to embrace libertarian ideology?