It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


New York To Round Up Mentally Ill

page: 2
<< 1   >>

log in


posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 07:26 PM

Originally posted by skalla
reply to post by TwelveFifty

the headline sounds worrying ofc, but the article sheds a little more light..

The measure follows a pair of high-profile subway-shove fatalities from December allegedly involving mentally ill individuals.The city has already drawn up a list of 25 targets, sources said.

“After the Queens subway attack [of immigrant Sunando Sen], the [city] decided to take a proactive approach to track down the most dangerous mental-health patients that currently have mental-hygiene warrants” out for them, a law-enforcement source said.

Those warrants mean that the patients are not wanted for a crime but instead are being sought because they are not getting their court-ordered treatment.

if a court deems someone enough of a risk to order specific treatment (i assume that a medical professional's advice would be part of the case), then is it not responsible to see this through?

only 25 cases are mentioned so far, and a "handful of cops" are assigned to it - this seems reasonable enough at this level, the danger is though that this is the thin end of a poorly assessed and agenda driven wedge.

the other danger is that dangerously ill people that require treatment and support to operate effectively and safely within the community dont get what they genuinely need - but who assesses this?

edit on 19-2-2013 by skalla because: clarity

This whole story is terrible for many reasons.

1) it confuses correlation/causation between subway murders and people not taking their meds
(is there any evidence to confirm this idea even slightly......)
2) it assumes that taking meds reduces the risk of someone wishing to murder another
(however it is actually the taking of meds or being on them in the first place that has more 'correlation' with both suicide and homocide)
3) it assumes that the dopamine hypothesis is proven which it is not
(see work by Duncan double, Peter breggin or Richard bentall re this)
4) tracking people by gps when they haven't committed a crime, or are not considered 'I'll enough' to be in hospital is a fundamental infringement on a persons rights
5) the idea of risk does not stand up in court, the authors of one of the most utilised risk assessments for mentally I'll and violence (hcr20) recognises this. The idea of risk to predict behaviour is mere guesswork.

If someone has committed a crime or there is evidence that proves they were likely too, arrest them and put them and put them before a court, but don't harass/follow people with mental illnesses that are deemed well enough to be in the community as its discrimination and ignorent.

edit on 21-2-2013 by Loopdaloop because: Typo

posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 07:41 PM

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by pennylemon

I wasn't saying that all those suffering menatl illness are violent and should be forced to take drugs..only those that actually are violent or show violent tendencies should be.

It should also be noted that the majority of violent behaviour and crime is not comitted by those diagnosed as mentally ill.

Every creature on this planet can show 'violent tendencies'.

Creature that are the most likely are those which are trapped in a corner.
Similarly, for those people locked up in institutions and are bullied and abused by members of staff on minimal wages acting like they are straight out of zimbardo's prison telling people what they can or can't do from toileting, to what time they can have a cup of tea, coffee or even cigarette, they are even more likely to show violent tendencies. People shouldn't have unproven medication forced upon them and then face tracking from government agencies due to the desire to fight oppression.

As you noted the majority of violence is committed by people that are not mentally Ill, therefore to drug only those that have had mental illness is founded upon nothing but scaremongering, prejudice and discrimination.
edit on 21-2-2013 by Loopdaloop because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 21 2013 @ 07:59 PM
Reply to post by Loopdaloop

It does not confuse anything and makes perfect sense. These people have most likely already committed crimes which is why they are on file. If someone is already dangerous suffering from a mental illness could increase their likelihood of doing something harmful. If their illness is severe enough they could think some random stranger is trying to hurt them and act first. Or just mistake someone as part of a delusion etc. The possibilities are endless. Keep the dopamine hypothesis as well millions are living well today thanks to modern medicine.

Posted Via ATS Mobile:

posted on Feb, 22 2013 @ 07:34 PM

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
Reply to post by Loopdaloop

It does not confuse anything and makes perfect sense. These people have most likely already committed crimes which is why they are on file. If someone is already dangerous suffering from a mental illness could increase their likelihood of doing something harmful. If their illness is severe enough they could think some random stranger is trying to hurt them and act first. Or just mistake someone as part of a delusion etc. The possibilities are endless. Keep the dopamine hypothesis as well millions are living well today thanks to modern medicine.

Posted Via ATS Mobile:

The idea that people who have mentally illnesses are more likely to be violent or commit crime in comparison to other people is false and a myth. Study after study has shown this. There are processes for people that have committed crimes however tracking and tracing innocent people, where there is no evidence that they have committed any crime nor are in the process of doing so is abhorrent to people's rights and also a slippery slope to people getting arrested for thought crimes.

Also, dopamine hypothesis and chemical imbalance theory is not proven.
There are millions upon millions of people that have their lives destroyed by psychiatric medicine.

For starters More people in western society die in connection to benzodiazepines than any illegal drug,
Secondly the argument is strong that it is psychiatric drugs are actually the cause the violence!
The following article from December is an example of this

Psychiatrists have come forward to assert that certain psychiatric medications, such as those known as SSRIs, are almost certainly the chemical cause of a large number of instances of random violence and suicide in which SSRIs have been present.
The research challenges the pharmaceutical industry's defense that the high correlation between random violence and the presence of these medications is due to the mental illness, not the drugs being prescribed for the illness. Other critics of the industry claim that drugs tend to be too aggressively marketed and over-prescribed.
The media has reported that the suspected shooter in the Sandy Hook multiple killings, Adam Lanza, was on some form of psychiatric medication, possibly related to a reported diagnosis of a form of autism. Authorities have yet to make a statement on what, if any, psychiatric medications Lanza was on, or had been on in the past. The SSRI with the brand name Prozac is sometimes prescribed for autism.
Answering the pharmaceutical industry's defense, in testimony before the House Committee on Veterans Affairs in February of 2010, Dr. Peter Breggin, founder of the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology, told the committee that the causative links between violent incidents and the drugs in question had already been established by the FDA. Dr. Breggin told the committee:
"The pharmaceutical industry has attempted to discredit case reports as evidence for causation. However, case reports have led to most FDA changes in labels and to most withdrawals of psychiatric drugs from the market, and are a mainstay in the FDA for evaluating adverse drug reactions."
Dr. Breggin said unequivocally:
"There is overwhelming evidence that the SSRIs and other stimulating antidepressants cause suicidality and aggression in children and adults of all ages."
Dr. Breggin made the news in 1987 when a group calling itself NAMI, National Alliance on Mental Illness, filed a complaint with Maryland's Commission on Medical Discipline for comments he made in on the Oprah Winfrey show. Both the New York Times and Mother Jones Magazine subsequently found that NAMI received up to 66% of its funding from the pharmaceutical industry. In 2009, U.S. Senator Charles Grassley opened an investigation of NAMI which confirmed that most of its funding came from pharmaceutical companies.
Dr. Breggin drew the wrath of the pharmaceutical industry on the Oprah Winfrey Show when he said:
"Find the little part in you that loves yourself and see if you're being loved by your therapist. See if that person cares for you, supports you. If that person offers a drug, don't even say, 'No, thank you.' You can take the prescription and go. Don't fight about it, don't get in trouble, but go. Don't take the drugs. And relate to people who care for you as a person."
The Maryland Commission cleared Dr. Breggin, and then thanked him for his contribution to mental health in Maryland.
Adding to the controversy over the links between SSRIs and violence and suicide, Dr. David Healy, a British psychiatrist and author of "Pharmageddon," (University of California Press, 2012) said in November of 2012:
“Violence and other potentially criminal behavior caused by prescription drugs are medicine’s best kept secret,”
The psychiatric profession and pharmaceutical industry have come under fire for the practice of giving doctors significant financial incentives for prescribing certain medications.
Dr. Gary G. Kohls, in an article entitled "Batman Shooter and His Psyche Drugs" published in Evergreene Digest, lists at least 40 cases violent crimes or suicides committed by mostly young people whose psychiatric history revealed the presence of psychiatric drugs, mostly SSRIs. The list of cases is as follows.
Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) - school shooting in El Cajon, California
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.
Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.
Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.
Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.
Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School - then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Read more:

This is why the coercion of people to take meds is idiocy.

edit on 22-2-2013 by Loopdaloop because: Typo

posted on Feb, 23 2013 @ 02:46 PM
reply to post by Loopdaloop

Coercion is correct. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I cant tell you how many times I have been faced with medical professionals that i have just met telling me that I am paranoid and oppositional when I question their insistence that I medicate as a precursor to treatment. I took years to find someone who would work with me. I am grateful in my own way that I cannot metabolize most medications and no amount of bullying can change that fact. I am neither angry or violent and having read the same "handbook" they are working from to tag me as such was just attempted manipulation on their part in my opinion.

Thank you for pointing out the fact that many of these high profile crimes are not committed by those who are not taking medication but by those who are.
edit on 23-2-2013 by pennylemon because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 10 2013 @ 01:54 PM
Violence on SSRI's was seen in even healthy volunteers

Let’s move on to some data. Here are data from the Drug Safety Research Unit in the UK showing that roughly 1 in every 200 people put on an SSRI go on to a violent action (S58).

Violence in Healthy Volunteers
Of even greater interest are the healthy volunteer trials you see here. These were done before the drug was ever on the market and you see that there are very clear indications long before – this was in the 1980’s – that the drug could make people aggressive.
In 1983 Pfizer ran a healthy volunteer trial of Zoloft in Leeds (S65). Six women were randomised to Zoloft and six to placebo. All the women taking Zoloft dropped out after a week with agitation and anxiety of various forms and in one case notes about aggressive impulses. Pfizer concluded in 1983 ‘Our drug has caused this and this is a well-known feature of SSRI drugs’. This is 1983 – 9 years before marketing.
Unaware of this result we ran a healthy volunteer trial in North Wales using Zoloft also and two of our healthy volunteers, one of whom you see here, became aggressive on the drug. This, I’m sure you will agree, is a fairly normal looking woman. Not the kind that you would expect to become seriously aggressive (S66).
We’ve known for Fifty Years [/Quote]

Taken from the following website.

Finally, as you will see here, when the first warnings about antidepressants causing suicide and violence came out in 2004 the American Psychiatric Association took a stand saying that APA believes antidepressants save lives (S29). To this day they still find it difficult to accept the evidence that these drugs cause more lives to be lost than they save – nowhere more so than here in Chicago. Do Drugs cause Violence? The antidepressants now come with black box warnings of suicide and in some jurisdictions such as Canada they come with warnings of violence also. Exactly the same mechanisms that lead to suicides lead to violence. In one case you have violence directed inward and in the other directed outwards. These mechanisms are akathisia, emotional blunting and psychosis. Yvonne Woodley whom you see here (S30) went on an SSRI for minor stress and when she got worse the dose was put up and when she got even worse the dose was put up again. This was very clear akathisia. She then committed suicide. The UK medical director for Lundbeck, who make the drug she was on, was asked by the coroner two questions: “Do you believe that Citalopram can cause someone who would not otherwise do so to take their own life?” (S31). He answers ‘Yes’. When companies are asked this question ordinarily they refer the media to academics or doctors who are not legally obliged to say “yes” in answer to the first question. Or they will answer the question: “Did your drug cause Yvonne Woodley, to commit suicide?” This is a question can always be answered “No”. But if asked the direct question “Can your drug cause someone to commit suicide?” companies legally have to answer “yes”. How Do Drugs Cause Violence? The mechanisms that lead a drug to cause suicide are the same that produce violence. The first of these is akathisia. Here (S32) you have great descriptions of the agitation antidepressants can cause. These came from the use of a drug called Reserpine given to normal people as an antihypertensive. There is no mental illness here to cloud the picture. The next mechanism is emotional disinhibition or blunting. This has been recognized by takers for a long time as you see here in this Peanuts cartoon, and yet another cartoon here from 2005 (S33-36). I don’t have a slide for the voice of God – to represent the fact that drugs can cause you to hear a voice or become delusional and lead to violence this way. This is strictly speaking delirium rather than psychosis. SSRIs in the Dock The modern story about drugs and violence begins here in 1989 when Joseph Wesbecker in a mass shooting killed eight of his co-workers before killing himself. He had been on Prozac for a month and the drug had unquestionably altered his behaviour. The company appeared to get a verdict saying that Prozac was not guilty when in fact it turned out the case had been settled (S37). Schell Things changed with this case involving Don Schell (S38). Don Schell was a 60 year old man who over 14 years had several brief episodes of anxiety that lasted at the most for a few weeks. In 1990 shortly after it came out he was treated with Prozac but had a very poor response and may have begun to hear voices while on it. Eight years later an entirely different doctor gave him Paxil having diagnosed poor sleep and anxiety. 48 hours afterwards Schell who you see here put 3 bullets through the head of his wife, 3 bullets through the head of his daughter and 3 through the head of his grand-daughter who were visiting before killing himself. His son-in-law Tim Tobin took a case against GSK and won a jury verdict (S39). Hawkins In the same week that verdict came in, the case of David Hawkins was heard. David Hawkins was a 74 year old man with a 20 year history of minor episodes of nervousness, no violence. In one of these he was treated with Zoloft and had a bad response to it. His doctor recorded “Do not give this man SSRIs” (S40). A number of years later feeling unwell he was seen by a locum doctor who didn’t know the history and didn’t read the notes and put him on Zoloft. He didn’t know that he was being put back on a pill that he had reacted poorly to before. He felt worse after one pill and thinking that more would help took four and the next morning strangled his wife to death. The judge and prosecution agreed with Tania Evers for the defense that but for the drug it was unlikely this would have happened (S41). Bentley Here you see Merrillee Bentley, a 32 year old mother of two (S42). She had been anxious for years. She was finally put by her doctor on Paxil and the dose was put up. She did even worse on that and so was switched to Efexor. She got worse and the dose was pushed up and up to 350 mg per day. The notes record that on Paxil and later Efexor she became visibly more agitated. She took her children for a drive in the car, stopped,
edit on 10-3-2013 by Loopdaloop because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 10 2013 @ 02:40 PM

Originally posted by rickymouse
That is impossible, where are they going to house the whole population of New York City. Maybe they can just make New York City a gated community.

Kalifornia, New York, Illinois, District of Columbia. Erect giant walls, cut all communications and declare a no-fly zone. Most of our problems would be solved.

top topics

<< 1   >>

log in