Is hell waiting?

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


Alright, try this version which holds the KJV next to the RSV. Those versions are perhaps more commonly known.

Even still, this reference still shows that Abraham's Bosom (where folks went before Christ died) and Hades are two separate places. Abraham's Bosom now no longer applies though, now that the Gates of Heaven are open.

An individual can be sent there, and it is for eternity. Once you're sent there, there is no getting out. Not everyone getting to Heaven is repeated throughout the NT.

Essentially, I think we're just about on the same page here. But please check this and this out as they do a better job of explaining my meaning.

Take a look at those and you'll see where I'm coming from.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


Well for one this is a Catholic link you gave me so it's automatically gonna be suspect to me, and rightly so.

This link makes the same common mistake: calling Sheol/Hades "Hell" which it is not!

From this parable it seems that all who died prior to Jesus’ Resurrection went to "hell" (Hades); however, the just went to a particular part of hell referred to as "Abraham’s bosom" where they would be comforted until the gates of heaven were opened while the damned went to a place of torment. A great chasm separated these two parts of hell and no one in either part was in heaven.

So, even by this, I still don't see how you feel I'm mistaken? The dead prior to the resurrection of Jesus went to Sheol/Hades. The just went to "Abraham's bosom" and the unjust merely were in another area of Hades reserved for the damned.

Hades is not Hell. After the resurrection of Jesus the saved go to Heaven upon death and the unsaved go to Hades/Sheol until Judgment Day when they will then be judged and sent to Hell.

Originally posted by LazarusTsiyr
reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville

 

Well for one this is a Catholic link you gave me so it's automatically gonna be suspect to me, and rightly so.

This link makes the same common mistake: calling Sheol/Hades "Hell" which it is not!

From this parable it seems that all who died prior to Jesus’ Resurrection went to "hell" (Hades); however, the just went to a particular part of hell referred to as "Abraham’s bosom" where they would be comforted until the gates of heaven were opened while the damned went to a place of torment. A great chasm separated these two parts of hell and no one in either part was in heaven.

So, even by this, I still don't see how you feel I'm mistaken? The dead prior to the resurrection of Jesus went to Sheol/Hades. The just went to "Abraham's bosom" and the unjust merely were in another area of Hades reserved for the damned.

Hades is not Hell. After the resurrection of Jesus the saved go to Heaven upon death and the unsaved go to Hades/Sheol until Judgment Day when they will then be judged and sent to Hell.

edit on 19-2-2013 by LazarusTsiyr because: (no reason given)

I'm with you, all the way up until going to Hades/Sheol until Judgement Day. U2U me when you can lest this thread get any more sidetracked than it already is.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


Where do you think that they go?

When is Judgement Day? Is it the same for everybody? I mean, why would God have to wait until the very end to judge everyone? The only way this makes sense to me is if he was going to give judgement to all people at the same time, but as we clearly know and have seen and have proof from God by Christ, some people are wicked and some people are good. It is not us as a species, but we as individuals who are being judged.

So do you think "Judgement Day" is going to be some giant ceremony where everybody's sins are paraded around and shared? Or do you think God judges us every day, so that he can try his best to help us become free from wickedness?

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


One does harvest all of one crop at the same time too.

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


You're not going off topic, please continiue as you were, I have no problem with it at all, you see.. you are doing great.

The truth is , nobody knows if hell is "waiting" or not. People have BELIEFS, but that's all they are.

If Hell awaits, it is nobody's fault but God's...

Humans are just being humans and if God wants to punish for that, then he should not have human nature in such a way.

And before anyone talks about the "eating the forbidden fruit " thing - remember, God created them without error, so he KNEW what they would do (in their programmed nature) ...

Originally posted by arpgme
The truth is , nobody knows if hell is "waiting" or not. People have BELIEFS, but that's all they are.

Yes, and we have it out of a book. A book of philosophy? Religion, What's the difference?
When religion becomes philosophy.

Originally posted by arpgme
If Hell awaits, it is nobody's fault but God's...

yaight!

Originally posted by arpgme
Humans are just being humans and if God wants to punish for that, then he should not have human nature in such a way.

That's right too.

Originally posted by arpgme
And before anyone talks about the "eating the forbidden fruit " thing - remember, God created them without error, so he KNEW what they would do (in their programmed nature) ...

Difficult.

I'll bite; God created them without error.

1. God created them right the first time.
2. God created them with them having no error.
3. God was without error when creating them.

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


Well my understanding was people are judged the moment of death, what is called a "particular judgement."

Then, as you say, there's the "general judgement" when Christ returns. But from what I understand of the general judgement, it applies to those living when He returns.

I've not heard of a "waiting area."

Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
When is Judgement Day? Is it the same for everybody?

Yes, it is.

I mean, why would God have to wait until the very end to judge everyone?

He doesn't have to. It's His decision.

Think of it this way. If you owned a business and had something important to tell all of your employees, wouldn't you want them all together at once? It just makes sense.

So do you think "Judgement Day" is going to be some giant ceremony where everybody's sins are paraded around and shared?

Yes.

Or do you think God judges us every day, so that he can try his best to help us become free from wickedness?

No.

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


I think the only thing important enough to tell everyone at once would be "I forgive you."

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


You speak as if you were absolutely certain about what your saying, which is pretty strange since there isn't even good evidence that Jesus even existed.

Hell is being used as a method to keep people controlled and in fear. Christianity is just another mythology like all others, but of course if YOU believe in it then to YOU it will feel "special" and "real" when in reality it isn't. It's just myths.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by LazarusTsiyr

 

You speak as if you were absolutely certain about what your saying, which is pretty strange since there isn't even good evidence that Jesus even existed.

Yes because I know the Bible and believe in it firmly. What's wrong about being certain of one's beliefs, views, and opinions?

Hell is being used as a method to keep people controlled and in fear

By some people, sure it is. But if you are saved and living righteously and striving to do the Most High's will then there's no need for fear. The Father does not control us. He gave us free will. So any who use His message to control or frighten people are not doing His will.

Christianity is just another mythology like all others

If you say so. Guess we'll find out.

It's just myths.

And now you're the one who sounds "absolutely certain about what you are saying" despite the fact that this is just your opinion/belief.

Like I said, we'll find out

Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
reply to post by LazarusTsiyr

 

I think the only thing important enough to tell everyone at once would be "I forgive you."

Sure that would be nice. But our God is not only a Merciful God but he's also a Just God. People seem to forget that. They want to focus on our God's love and mercy which is fine. But then they ignore that He is also Holy and Just has a Holy and Just standard.

Here is my view, reached after much study:

Hell is a big 404 - not found.

There are four main props of Hell, and I will knock them down in succession:

Prop One
Without the concept of the Immortality of the soul, Hell gets a bit shaky. It's very simple, if we look at the story of the creation of man by God. We all know it - God took some dirt, made a body, breathed into the body the Breath of Life, and man became a living soul. To simplify:

dead body + breath of life = living soul

Now, let's reverse it:

living soul - breath of life = dead body

Perfect logic - start with the living person (soul) and kill it, so that the breath of life returns to God who gave it, and what do you have left? A dead body! So that means that when you're dead, you're dead. There is no immortal soul to go to Hell, Hades, or the Inferno. The spirit cannot go there either, because it has returned to God who gave it. Is God going to send His own Spirit to Hell? God forbid! There remains, if you examine all this closely, nothing to send to Hell. The same Bible which the Eternal Torture (ET) crowd likes to quote about Hell, says that "the soul that sinneth shall die." Nothing said about being sent to Hell too. If we jump forward from Genesis to the Revelation, we see that Death and Hell are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. Now, I ask you, if such a thing has happened, how can Hell still exist (if it ever existed), and how can the dead be in Hell if Death has been destroyed? Let's move on.

Prop Two
"Hell" as we have come to understand it, has come down to us, like the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, from pagan sources. I don't want to elaborate too much on the Scandinavian "Hel," the Greek "Hades," or the Latin "Inferno," but you can Wiki that for yourself if you are not familiar with the mythology. This is how "Hell," or "the grave," became Hell, the place of eternal torment. Check any good dictionary, especially the Oxford, for information on Hell. "Hell" is also a verb, meaning "to bury," reinforcing the "grave" usage. Even the Buddhist concept of Hell is very close to the ET version, the main difference being in the artistic style of the representation. Two props down, it won't take much more.

Prop Three
This one is very simple - in almost every instance of the usage of "Hell" or "Hades" in the Holy Bible, a better rendering would (and should) be "the grave." A couple of hours with a Strong's or Young's Concordance should clear up this chestnut for you. Did you ever think about the way the proper name of God, YHWH, has been translated/transliterated as "LORD"? At the same time, the names of all and sundry pagan gods were improperly rendered properly, when the God who said not to even speak their names gets short shrift. This happens because the (mis)translators had/have an agenda, and "Hell" is no different. One prop left.

Prop Four
If you care to dig into it, you will find that apart from what I have already mentioned, a misunderstanding of body, spirit, and soul; pagan concepts and mistranslations, all the evidence for "Hell" is based on fiction. Yes, from Dante Aligheri to John Milton to Mary Baxter's "A Divine Revelation of Hell," everything we have to support the concept of Hell is fiction. Every last account is unverifiable, from epic poem to story, to sermon, to EweToob video. Fiction - Legend - Myth - lies.

Heaven, yes!

Hell, no.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Here is my view, reached after much study:

Study more. Here's why.

Perfect logic - start with the living person (soul) and kill it, so that the breath of life returns to God who gave it, and what do you have left? A dead body!

When the body dies, the soul does not. It does not "return to God."

If we jump forward from Genesis to the Revelation, we see that Death and Hell are both thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Wrong! (And this is why I say to study more.) Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell). Hades/Sheol (the place of the dead) and Hell are not the same place. It's sad that people can't understand such a simple concept. Why/how would Hell be thrown into Hell?!

Now, I ask you, if such a thing has happened, how can Hell still exist (if it ever existed), and how can the dead be in Hell if Death has been destroyed? Let's move on.

No, let's not move on because your whole statement is bunk and completely wrong.

I don't want to elaborate too much on the Scandinavian "Hel," the Greek "Hades," or the Latin "Inferno,"

Again, Hell and Hades/Sheol are not the same. Perhaps you should actually study things and not rely on "Wiki."

This one is very simple - in almost every instance of the usage of "Hell" or "Hades" in the Holy Bible

Again, not the same. The two are not interchangeable. Hell doesn't come about until Revelations. Until that time, Judgment Day, all the unsaved souls go to Hades/Sheol. The saved souls go to Heaven. Then all are brought back on Judgment Day and judged.

Did you ever think about the way the proper name of God, YHWH, has been translated/transliterated as "LORD"?

That's not a translation or a transliteration. Are you kidding me?! You are illustrating your total ignorance of this subject right now. It does not translate as "Lord" and I think you misunderstand what transliterate means.

YHWH breaks down to mean "He who causes." Y is a pronoun which means "he" and Hwh is a verb meaning "To cause" or "To create." (reference The religion of ancient Israel (2000) by Patrick D Miller, page 2. Westminster John Knox Press.) You can also look that up in Strong's Concordance.

LORD was a substitution added by the Catholic church. And in fact it is pagan in origin!

Sorry but your whole premise is flawed and based on distortions of facts.

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


LazT sez:
When the body dies, the soul does not. It does not "return to God."
LazS replies:
You fail to understand the difference between Soul and Spirit. Do what you tell me to do, and go back, study Genesis some more.

LazT sez:
Wrong! (And this is why I say to study more.) Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell). Hades/Sheol (the place of the dead) and Hell are not the same place. It's sad that people can't understand such a simple concept. Why/how would Hell be thrown into Hell?!
LazS replies:
You fail to understand the difference between Hell and Hades. My Bible says that Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire. “Hell thrown into Hell”?! You can’t tell the Lake of Fire from Hell?

LazT sez:
Again, Hell and Hades/Sheol are not the same. Perhaps you should actually study things and not rely on "Wiki."
LazS replies:
I didn’t “Wiki” anything.


LazT sez:
Again, not the same. The two are not interchangeable. Hell doesn't come about until Revelations. Until that time, Judgment Day, all the unsaved souls go to Hades/Sheol. The saved souls go to Heaven. Then all are brought back on Judgment Day and judged.
LazS replies:
In my Bible, I find “Hell” well before the Revelation, but did you mean that chronologically? I actually agree with you here – the unsaved go to Hades/Sheol, that is to say, the grave.

LazT sez:
That's not a translation or a transliteration. Are you kidding me?! You are illustrating your total ignorance of this subject right now. It does not translate as "Lord" and I think you misunderstand what transliterate means.
LazS replies:
OK, you got me. I will change that to “rendered as.” Better? Actually I understand perfectly well what “transliterate” means, I just made a bad choice of terms.

LazT sez:
YHWH breaks down to mean "He who causes." Y is a pronoun which means "he" and Hwh is a verb meaning "To cause" or "To create." (reference The religion of ancient Israel (2000) by Patrick D Miller, page 2. Westminster John Knox Press.) You can also look that up in Strong's Concordance.
LORD was a substitution added by the Catholic church. And in fact it is pagan in origin!
LazS replies:
I had not heard that interpretation of YHWH before – I like it. On a much deeper level, if we plug in the very ancient phonetic meanings of the letters, then YHWH means “Behold the hand, behold the nail.” Could that be Jesus?

LazT sez:
Sorry but your whole premise is flawed and based on distortions of facts.
LazS replies:
Are you more upset at my scholarship or my theology? Your abusive language (“Are you kidding me?!) indicates theology. Your response indicates that you have reacted to what I said without thinking about it. Ask yourself: How can God ever be All in all if people are still suffering in “Hell”?

You fail to understand the difference between Hell and Hades. My Bible says that Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Then it's a mistranslation/substitution. It says HADES. Not Hell. The Greek is HADES. Hell and Hades are not the same. Granted some Bibles do say Hell where the actual word is Hades. That just shows the faulty translation.

I blame whichever translation you are reading but I also blame you for not comparing translations and looking to the original Greek.

“Hell thrown into Hell”?! You can’t tell the Lake of Fire from Hell?

Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hell is not Hades. Sheol and Hades are the same. They are the place of the dead. They are not Hell, the place of eternal torment.

OK, you got me. I will change that to “rendered as.” Better?

It still doesn't matter. YHWH does not mean LORD. It's not the same thing.

Are you more upset at my scholarship or my theology?

I'm not upset by anything. I'm just shocked at the inaccurate and untrue things you are saying. You fall for weak translation and alterations to the Scriptures and adhere to them like they are, pardon the pun, gospel truth.

Your abusive language (“Are you kidding me?!) indicates theology.

That's not abusive; it's shock. Basic, fundamental things you are getting wrong.

Your response indicates that you have reacted to what I said without thinking about it.

Wrong. But I didn't need to think much about it because most of it is basic.

Ask yourself: How can God ever be All in all if people are still suffering in “Hell”?

Because our God is a JUST and HOLY God. That's what people forget because they want to focus more on His love and mercy.

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr




LazS:
You fail to understand the difference between Hell and Hades. My Bible says that Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
LazT:
Then it's a mistranslation/substitution. It says HADES. Not Hell. The Greek is HADES. Hell and Hades are not the same. Granted some Bibles do say Hell where the actual word is Hades. That just shows the faulty translation.
I blame whichever translation you are reading but I also blame you for not comparing translations and looking to the original Greek.

LazS:
OK, I’ll do this exercise with you, even though you won’t answer for your failure to distinguish between spirit and soul – it does make a fundamental difference, but since the correct view does not aid your side you ignore it like so many who argue on this site.
Revelation 20:14
KJV “death and hell”
RSV “Death and Hades”
The Unvarnished New Testament “Death and Hades”
The Message “Death and Hell”
NAS “death and Hades”
Williams “death and the underworld”
Beck “death and the grave”
KJV II “death and hell”
Ferrar Fenton Version “Death and the Grave”
There you are: grave, underworld, hades, hell, so take your pick. Yes, I was wrong, as only some of my Bibles say “Death and Hell.” I prefer “death and the grave,” especially if what you said is true: “Hell is the Lake of Fire.” If that is so, explain to me again how hell is thrown into hell. Before you answer, explain how anyone can be dead in hell when death is thrown into the LoF. You can not win this one.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LazS:
“Hell thrown into Hell”?! You can’t tell the Lake of Fire from Hell?
LazT:
Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hell is not Hades. Sheol and Hades are the same. They are the place of the dead. They are not Hell, the place of eternal torment.

LazS:
Hell is (believed to be) a place of eternal torment, though death was the highest/worst punishment ever prescribed by the Law of God.
The Lake of Fire is a temporary place for the refining of the wicked, or have you missed all the references to God as a refining fire? Or have you missed all the references in the Bible (many!) to humans being refined as gold and silver?
Hades is from Greek mythology, and Christians should not use the term in their conversation, not tolerate it in their Bibles.
Sheol is not the same as Hades, meaning simply the grave or the unknown.
Tell me, do you have any idea how many millions of people turn away from Christianity due to the Eternal Hell doctrine? They refuse a God who could and/or would place them in such a place, and rightly so. I worship a God of eternal Love and Mercy. Judgment and justice are temporal, and will pass away when YHWH becomes All in all.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LazS:
OK, you got me. I will change that to “rendered as.” Better?
LazT:
It still doesn't matter. YHWH does not mean LORD. It's not the same thing.

LazS:
Good call on that one, for “YHWH” is a specific, personal name, and “LORD” is quite generic. But I knew that.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LazS:
Are you more upset at my scholarship or my theology?
LazT:
I'm not upset by anything. I'm just shocked at the inaccurate and untrue things you are saying. You fall for weak translation and alterations to the Scriptures and adhere to them like they are, pardon the pun, gospel truth.

LazS:
And you sir, misunderstand and misrepresent much of what I have said, grasping at every straw to criticise, and ignoring every good point I make. Same old, same old.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LazS:
Your abusive language (“Are you kidding me?!) indicates theology.
LazT:
That's not abusive; it's shock. Basic, fundamental things you are getting wrong.

LazS:
My short essay will get polished on accout of you, and I am already making changes. Basic, fundamental things wrong? Only in the Eternal Torment universe!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LazS:
Ask yourself: How can God ever be All in all if people are still suffering in “Hell”?
LazT:
Because our God is a JUST and HOLY God. That's what people forget because they want to focus more on His love and mercy.

LazS:
Ask yourself if a JUST and HOLY (and don’t forget LOVING and MERCIFUL) God would really, really torture the wicked (and really, isn’t that all of us?) for all eternity, or kill them and leave them dead for all eternity? Ask yourself if God’s Justice is like man’s justice, demanding punishment and retribution. God’s Justice involved sending His Son to die on our place. Pretty basic, yes? Are you clinging to Eternal Torment theology when God has already taken the torment (that should have been ours) upon Himself, and thus, let us off easy?