I've finally come to the realization that there is no perfect from of government, only a preference. Afterall, what is that makes a government good or bad? The answer is people. What governments are around the world is really nothing more than a reflection of the rest of the people in that country. All men are corruptible, therefore no form of government is going to be "good".

Since we know that government are a reflection of the people, what does that tell us? The world doesn't have "government problems". The world has morality problems. Overall, we have become a self serving people, which is why we have self serving governments. When we, as a people, think only of ourselves, how can expect our government to behave any differently?

If we want to see a different world with governments that treat people like they should be treated, perhaps the change rests on each and everyone of us. Perhaps the change we need is to be a people who are more concerned about our neighbor than we are ourselves. Perhaps that would show up as a reflection in our government.

If we want a government that serves the people, we must be a serving people to begin with.

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

These are words to live by and an attitude needed to see real change in people. This is how the world is changed. It is not by some miracle. It is by people taking initiative to change from a self serving attitude. Then you will see that reflection in the government.

If this is in the wrong place mods, please move.

I would like to complicate things a bit by asking a question as well:

Is it possible to have a good form of society without government ?

Short answer: Nope.

*EDIT* I have to add that this is only valid in our current stage of development. We are greedy little suckers, and without enforcement of law through police and laws it wouldn't take 10 Minutes until someone comes and smacks your teeth in and takes your belongings. Maybe that changes after a couple thousand years evolution.

It goes the other way too.

I observed this from seeing different work environments with different managers, and by also comparing different corporate work environments.. - the workers take on the character traits of the managers or big bosses, like little clones.

I've walked into very relaxing and comfortable environments only to realize that the manager was a really cool guy with a similar vibe. Likewise is the case with work environments managed by tyrannical, inconsiderate people or whatever other personalities you can imagine. They take on the traits of their 'superiors'.

I get what both of you are saying, but I think my point is valid. The world we see is a mirror of who we all collectively are. I think you can see that through government. For any form of government to work for the people, the people must truly change to become a people who cares deeply for their fellow man. Even more so then themselves.

“Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.” ― Thomas Jefferson

“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.” ― Thomas Jefferson

“If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny.” ― Thomas Jefferson

“Experience has shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” ― Thomas Jefferson

“Our country is too large to have all its affairs directed by a single government. Public servants at such a distance, and from under the eye of their constituents, must, from the circumstance of distance, be unable to administer and overlook all the details necessary for the good government of the citizens; and the same circumstance, by rendering detection impossible to their constituents, will invite public agents to corruption, plunder and waste.” ― Thomas Jefferson

I could sit here and paste quote after quote of Thomas Jefferson to prove that "We The People" have in fact allowed the failure of our democracy to occur. Aside from the Civil War, I am not aware of a time in our Country's history that displayed a significant effort to uphold the Constitution. In fact, I speak from the witness chair that our society does nothing but promote the tyranny of government... it seems everyone is just too comfortable with their cell phones and lack of awareness to uphold the Constitution. Yeah, so nothing being done in the past to uphold the "Declaration of Independence" has now led to an even bigger struggle for people to withstand if they are to prevail and win back the ideals that this Country is written on.

So, it is upon us, individually, to see and decide things for our Country's future with not only a truthful demand of ourselves, but to extend our decisions to reflect what we would like our children to view us, as "fore-fathers/mothers" as to what we have or haven't accomplished. I think we need to start doing things as we would like to see done to our children, instead of, as we would for ourselves. I'd say giving into the tyrannies of government has voided this generations ability to deem what is fit for a future of "We The People."

And, I don't believe the government is quite the prediction of the people living in them as you indicate. For one, it's my opinion, that only "free" citizens of "free" countries have any abilities to change their government. Didn't the U.S.A. set that standard as far as countries go? And, if so, wouldn't that lead to the World somehow looking onto us as a country to display the validity of a citizen ruled government? I'd indicate that the state of our country is not one bit a reflection of myself, and that it is more a direct reflection of what past generations did NOT stand up for. Somehow along the way our citizens decided that we were too big of a player in the industrialization era, and that our monetary position in the World was more important than the people living in it. If I don't give a crap for money, then how does the government reflect what I desire for the future of our Country?

If I voted for either one of these ridiculous political parties, and do nothing to break up the "legacies" that run our Country then I may agree with what you said. If you vote on the lesser of evils and not on what is truthfully moral then you must agree with what you're saying. If you pay taxes and support them in any way, then it will indeed reflect your position. See, there are many little things we do to support the tyranny, yet it is acceptable for some strange reason... to just go to sleep, with the help of ambien, to hope for a better tomorrow. When are we going to realize that it has got to get very very messy in this Country for it to get better? Hell, we have at least a couple revolutions to make up for!


“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” ― Thomas Jefferson

Governments don't exist of their own accord.

Man created government to use as nothing more than an expedient, to be harnessed by mankind in order to best protect their rights and interests.

However, it is no longer an expedient to us. It has become a hideous behemoth that continually increases and centralizes its power, enslaves people, and causes strife throughout the world. It has become nothing more than a parasite that squanders the blood and treasure of the human race, a disease that masquerades as its own cure.

It has become the most dangerous construct devised by the mind of man. An iron hammer for the tyrant's will.

But again, governments don't exist of their own accord. Its existence alone does not make it legitimate. If we are to pull ourselves up and out of our graves, perhaps acknowledging this is a good place to start.

Is this form, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? Are we meant to acquire a little worldly wealth, or fame, or liberty, and make a false show with it, as if we were all husk and shell, with no tender and living kernel to us? If a plant cannot live according to nature, it dies; and so a man.

They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, drink at it there with reverence and humility; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake or that pool, gird up their loins once more, and continue their pilgrimage toward its fountain-head. -Henry David Thoreau

Ad sidera aut ad inferos?

anything IS possible OP. 1 feels as long as those at top are aware fully of how the agenda they manage effects others it CAN be guided either way. Just got to know the real agenda of those at top who even place others below them or allow others to fester below them to guide the MAIN AGENDAS..

NAMASTE*******

Greed and lust for power are both part of the human condition. As nice as all this optimistic, hippy, new age talk is, it is an inescapable fact.

Things can and do "reset", sure, but eventually, it will just return to the state in which we are now. Income disparity, class warfare, Orwellian surveillance, loss of civil and personal liberty, etc.

I don't believe it is part of some grand design, but rather the feedback loop of an increasingly paranoid society, and the Government that manages it.

My advice for all of you, is to simply accept it is too late to really change anything, and to just try to enjoy your life.

Yes if you can restrict it as much as possible.


Big government = nightmare/1984/soviet union.
Small government = good.

As soon as a group gets together, that is, forms a society, they have to have rules to protect each from the others, for ways of working together, and to assure that none become paracites on the others. Then they have to set up a way of enforcing those rules. That's what government is. All societies need governments, it's shallow thinking to believe societies can exist without or even with only minimum governments. The main problem is when the citizens don't learn and care enough about it to assure that it's working for all, not for just a few.

If we complain, it's not because of the politicians, it's because we didn't put in the effort and intelligence as citizens we should have to assure that only those legislators who are honest and work for toward the interests of all of us are elected.

A few things to repair our situation: Make sure very good civics and political science are mandatory in elementary and high schools. Have all elections publically funded - no contributions above $100. Very strong punishment for giving or taking bribes. Get rid of gerrymandering. Strongly progressive tax system. It's insane that six members of the Walton family have as much wealth as the bottom 40% of the country. Work to get each citizen's equity not too far from the median so everyone can live a decent life. Teach critical thinking, logic, and ethics in school.

Originally posted by METACOMET

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Governments don't exist of their own accord.

Man created government to use as nothing more than an expedient, to be harnessed by mankind in order to best protect their rights and interests.

However, it is no longer an expedient to us. It has become a hideous behemoth that continually increases and centralizes its power, enslaves people, and causes strife throughout the world. It has become nothing more than a parasite that squanders the blood and treasure of the human race, a disease that masquerades as its own cure.

Did "Man" really create government?

Who else could have created it? Man was created by God (according to Religion). Did Man create Religion? Supposedly, religion was created by the Gods also. Governments and Religion want the same thing for Man. At least, they pretend that they want Man to live together in peace.

The God(s) in the Bible say that Man is like sheep, and that they appoint shepards to control Man. Kings and Pharaohs were endowed by the Gods to build the pyramids by using Man, and slavery was always a useful tool, equally for governments and religions.

Millions (or billions later in this century) will be executed summarily at the convernience of those in power (check Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, China, to mention a few). The God-appointed governments throughout history raised Man like sheep, controlled Man like sheep, made them kill each other like sheep, so why would governments let go of their control over Man now?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Did "Man" really create government? The God(s) in the Bible say that Man is like sheep, and that they appoint shepards to control Man. Kings and Pharaohs were endowed by the Gods...(snip)

Yes. Divine Right is priest class B.S. "God wills us free; man wills us slaves: I will as God wills; God's will be done."

The God-appointed governments throughout history raised Man like sheep, controlled Man like sheep, made them kill each other like sheep, so why would governments let go of their control over Man now?

They wont.

Originally posted by Occam

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The main problem is when the citizens don't learn and care enough about it to assure that it's working for all, not for just a few.
Work to get.... Teach critical thinking, logic, and ethics in school.

Yes, but you are forgetting one thing: you are talking about a misnomered species called homo sapiens. Robots act logically, Humans act emotionally.

Yes, but your work-to-get wish will not become reality because Humans' beliefs and decisions are based on

- what is taught in government schools, which is decided by: government politicians, and on
- information provided to us on TV, which is decided by: corporations that are in bed with: government politicians.

Originally posted by METACOMET

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Did "Man" really create government? The God(s) in the Bible say that Man is like sheep, and that they appoint shepards to control Man. Kings and Pharaohs were endowed by the Gods...(snip)

Yes. Divine Right is priest class B.S. "God wills us free; man wills us slaves: I will as God wills; God's will be done."

The God-appointed governments throughout history raised Man like sheep, controlled Man like sheep, made them kill each other like sheep, so why would governments let go of their control over Man now?

They wont.

Then we agree on the outcome, we disagree on the reason. The Bible does condone slavery and states that slaves must obey their masters and may not question him. and ancient dictators claimed to have been appointed by their God. Please tell me, why does God need to "will us"? Why did He not "create us" free? People doing bad stuff and governments doing even worse, did "He" do a lousy job or what?

Originally posted by solongandgoodnight
I get what both of you are saying, but I think my point is valid. The world we see is a mirror of who we all collectively are. I think you can see that through government. For any form of government to work for the people, the people must truly change to become a people who cares deeply for their fellow man. Even more so then themselves.

If you are addressing a religious issue, I am not sure which one it is. Your thread title suggests you are adressing politics. Do you think Soviets were bad because their government was the "evil empire"? Are North Koreans what their government represents?