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Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by adjensen
So let me get this straight adjensen, what you have presented for your case is a verse from Mark 2:27, somewhat unclear in meaning read as is, but easily defeated when read in context and analysed
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by JesuitGarlic
Jesus upheld the standard of truth, justice and righteousness, while rendering a verdict of mercy and forgiveness.
It's a double bind on sin and evil by a limitless love.
To really "get it" is to be both brought into the tears of repentance, and then out into the tears of joy and even hilarity.
Think of God's love in Christ as the wind that blows through the divided middle which is also the twin pillars of Justice and Mercy, as a set standard as tall as the universe is long.
If it evokes anger, rage, bitterness, and nothing more, then at some level a person is dead already according to a hardened heart, but it's designed in such a way that it's capable of making even the most hardened heart of stone back into a heart of flesh.
I think the acid test, from what I've been able to discern, resides in one's ability to cry, and to laugh in regards to our own human folly and even in relation to our worst aspects.
It is only the devil within who sneers ferociously at it, because by it's very nature and by design it is an all-or-nothing proposition which makes no compromise whatsoever with sin and evil ie: to be curative, it must cut to the core where evil and rebellion lives and there bind the "strong man", whereby our true strength is measured in our weakness and where virtue may be defined as power, restrained.
It's a fantastic "predicament", the final resolution to the age old problem of human sin and evil, which carries with it it's own logic and reason.
I'll take it, even if it hurts, at first..
"That which hurts, instructs."
~ Ben Franklin
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
But in all seriousness, no matter what window you look from, if the homo genus originated in one particular area, and then made a regular practice of spreading out from it's various branches, there's no reason to think that all religions wouldn't have a common ancestor or two.
that's a fine collection of interpretations and discernments, intended to arrive at a conclusion which is the exact opposite of what was said. That's not "reading in context" -- in context, Jesus was telling people who were critical of his apparent disregard for Sabbath Law to "lighten up."
As for the rest of it, you continue to labour in your belief that I am a Fundamentalist
If you want to live under Judaic Law, feel free, but you'd best be living under it all, not just the bits that you like -- I presume that you are circumcised, refrain from all "unclean" animals and keep a ready supply of stones handy for killing anyone who violates the laws prescribed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
Isaiah 56:6,7 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
He never said we weren't meant to keep the Sabbath, just that to keep it for what God intended it for.
As for the rest of it, you continue to labour in your belief that I am a Fundamentalist
I want to get to the heart of what you perceive your highest authority to be, your highest authority therefore isn't the bible
You see adjensen, "foreigners" aka non-jews/gentiles/Christians are commanded to keep the Sabbath as part of the terms of the new covenant.
If there are conditions and codicils placed on salvation due to behaviour, then it becomes entirely a matter of works, not faith, and that contradicts the whole of the New Testament. Belief that God cares whether you worship him on
Saturday or Sunday diminishes God, makes salvation a matter of works, and works alone, and rejects the notion that salvation is through Christ, since it doesn't matter if he died on the cross, all that matters is what your calendar says when you turn up at church.
John 14:15, 21 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. [21] Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Luke 16:17 However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
2 Peter 2:21, 22 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn their backs on the holy commandment that was committed to them. The proverb is true that describes what has happened to them: "A dog returns to its vomit," and "A pig that is washed goes back to wallow in the mud."
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
James 4:17 Whoever knows the good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
likewise, those who knew truth, yet continually DISTORTED truth, are in even móre grave danger
Faith AND obedience (to show you actually love and know God)...not one or the other, BOTH. That is what Adventist's teach, that is what the Bible teaches.
No, he did not say that, and he in no way said that salvation depends on which 24 hour period one chooses to observe as a time for worship.
No, they are not.
Isaiah 58:13,14
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.
See, I've always said that faith is nothing more than having a very good reason to lie to yourself. Otherwise, it wouldn't be faith, it would be fact-based knowledge.
This, in my view, is not a healthy process at all. It says that you are not strong enough to decide for yourself. It says you don't deserve the gift of free will, because you've chosen to obey someone else's free will instead.
If "God" doesn't like it, he has only himself to blame. He engineered my perspective, every inch of it. And he can cash in his warranty if he decides he can't handle me.
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Would you care to comment on the plain verse of Hebrew 4:9 I cited or do you wish to forget about things that may inconvience you
Isaiah 58:13,14
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.
These promises are for God people, not just Israelites
Obedience to the will (and reason) of God, which is the will and reason to love, was the key to Jesus' power, and spiritual authority.
The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:
1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.
2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.
At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.
In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.
I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.
That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.
According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by NewAgeMan
Very good post NewAgeName.
I think this post has a lot of truth in helping someone think of the "intent" of the Law and what it means to follow God.
And I assume that you read all of Hebrews 4, so that you would know that it isn't about "rest on the Sabbath", but "rest in God", ie: eternal rest.
Now we come to a controversial statement: “there remains therefore a rest for the people of God” (verse 9). The Greek word translated “rest” in every other verse throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is katapausis. The word for “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 is sabbatismos. This is the only New Testament occurrence of this word, and its meaning is fundamental to understanding this pivotal verse, which is the conclusion of everything previously said about “rest” beginning in Hebrews 3:7.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary states about the meaning of sabbatismos:
“The words ‘Sabbath rest” translate the [Greek] noun ‘sabbatismos,’ a unique word in the New Testament. This term appears also in Plutarch…for Sabbath observance, and in four postcanonical Christian writings which are not dependent on Hebrews 4:9, for seventh day ‘Sabbath celebration.’”
The Anchor Bible Dictionary continues with an explanation of the context:
“The author of Hebrews affirms in Hebrews 4:3-11 through the joining of quotations from Genesis 2:2 and Psalm 95:7 that the promised ‘Sabbath rest’ still anticipates a complete realization ‘for the people of God’ in the … endtime which had been inaugurated with the appearance of Jesus [Hebrews 1:1-3]… The experience of ‘Sabbath rest’ points to a present ‘rest’ (katapausis) reality in which those ‘who have believed are entering’ (4:3) and it points to a future ‘rest’ reality (4:11). Physical Sabbath-keeping on the part of the New Covenant believer as affirmed by ‘Sabbath rest’ epitomizes cessation from ‘works’ (4:10) in commemoration of God’s rest at creation (4:4 = Genesis 2:2) and manifests faith in the salvation provided by Christ.
“Hebrews 4:3-11 affirms that physical ‘Sabbath rest’ (sabbatismos) is the weekly outward manifestation of the inner experience of spiritual rest (katapausis) in which the final…rest is…experienced already ‘today’ (4:7). Thus ‘Sabbath rest’ combines in itself creation-commemoration, salvation-experience, and eschaton [end-time]-anticipation as the community of faith moves forward toward the final consummation of total restoration and rest.”
source
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest
Sabbatismos 4520
I assume that you know who the author of Hebrews (who was not Paul, by the way) was writing to, right? The Hebrews? So I assume that you would understand that the author would frame his arguments in terms of Judaic Law, right?
Again, you do realize that Isaiah was writing to a Jewish audience, not a Christian one, right?