An open question on the character of the divine in relation to Judgement

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
The only way I can see it is if you have accepted a lower authority on what is truth than the sources I have

You accept a higher authority than Jesus?

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath (Mark 2:27 KJV)

If you think that God cares what specific day of the week you set aside to rest and worship, and would predicate salvation on it, you have a pretty low opinion of God.

reply to post by adjensen

If you think that God cares what specific day of the week you set aside to rest and worship, and would predicate salvation on it, you have a pretty low opinion of God.

Historically, Saturday was set aside. So yes, there is a specific day. Also, considering the number of seemingly trivial details that have invoked his wrath in the Bible, I would recommend not taking any chances.

Originally posted by adjensen
If you think that God cares what specific day of the week you set aside to rest and worship, and would predicate salvation on it, you have a pretty low opinion of God.

God would be a petty sadistic monster. People who love Him and worship Him and trust Him would be sent to hell simply because they get together to worship Him a few hours differently than others. Billions upon billions who love and worship God would go to hell simply because of the time on a clock.

It's absurd.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
considering the number of seemingly trivial details that have invoked his wrath in the Bible, I would recommend not taking any chances.

Good point. Poor Onan was supposedly sentenced to death by God because he 'spilled his seed' instead of getting the wife of his dead brother pregnant. More likely, the dude simply had a heart attack due to the stress of having his brother die and then having to marry a shrew of a sister-in-law who went and discussed their sex life with the neighbors. The peasants attribued many natural things to 'God' being happy or angry ....

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

If you think that God cares what specific day of the week you set aside to rest and worship, and would predicate salvation on it, you have a pretty low opinion of God.

Historically, Saturday was set aside. So yes, there is a specific day.

It was "set aside" under Judaic Law, and Christians are not bound to Judaic Law (never mind the quote there from Christ, who specifically refutes a slavish devotion to Sabbath laws.)

I suppose you're also in favour of stoning people to death for adultery, disobeying their parents or making false prophecy (and I'll just says "oopsies" on behalf of Ellen White for that one, lol,) since those are also in Judaic Law with the same authority as your Shabbat ordinances.

reply to post by adjensen

... and don't forget that eating lobster will send you to hell .. and 'spilling your seed' will get God angry and get you killed off ... etc etc

I've been pondering the quote that the OP quoted and here's my opinion on the matter.

First, I'll repost the quote...

In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth.

I think with every religion we have has some misinterpretations (leading to lies), but I don't think that keeps us from also learning the truth that leads to salvation either. There is no perfect church because it is made up of men, but the Holy Spirit will lead us to believe what's important enough to lead us to salvation.

I don't think the average person is going to be condemned for not practicing the Sabbath on Saturday (Seventh Day Adventists), for repenting their sins in front of a priest while calling him father (Catholics), for thinking that works along with faith leads to salvation (Mormon), or for thinking that heaven is here on earth (Jehovah's Witnesses).

The fact that not all of the apostles or disciples taught the exact same thing when it came to "the laws", I think is proof of that. However, do I think that the apostles, disciples and church leaders will be judged based on how they interpreted the laws? Possibly, but not enough to lose salvation over. Even though the Seventh Day Adventists have Ellen White and the Mormons have Joseph Smith I think both hold the words of Christ higher than that of White or Smith. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As long as all believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and the importance of repentance, I think that the specifics of practice is just that....practice. Unless that practice includes a sinful act against God or man, I can't see it being relevant to salvation.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Even though the Seventh Day Adventists have Ellen White and the Mormons have Joseph Smith I think both hold the words of Christ higher than that of White or Smith. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One would hope that to be the case with the SDA, who are Christians, but the Latter Day Saints are not a Christian group.

The view of Christ, salvation and the life of the pious that Joseph Smith had, and which has been affirmed by their subsequent "prophets", bears little resemblance to those aspects within Christianity. As with other non-Christian religions who claim some connection to Christ, the only thing that the Mormons have in common with Christianity is the occurrence of some of the same people within an historical context.

reply to post by adjensen

As with other non-Christian religions who claim some connection to Christ, the only thing that the Mormons have in common with Christianity is the occurrence of some of the same people within an historical context.

Can you explain this a little bit more?

reply to post by Deetermined


Well, it's not exactly on-topic, but Mormons are polytheists, who don't believe that Christ saves you, think that Lucifer is Christ's brother, that Christ came to the Americas after his resurrection, to preach to the lost tribe of Israel that was here and that at death you, if you're a good Mormon (meaning you give 10% of your income to the church, and they audit, lol, and are "eternally sealed" in a Temple marriage) will be turned into a god, and given your own universe to rule over. If you're a man, that is (and since the late 1970s, that includes non-white men -- minorities used to be excluded,) women are not granted any such thing. Core Mormon theology originally taught that simple marriage wasn't enough -- you had to be polygamous if you wanted to attain godhood. The church decided that wasn't a good idea when the United States threatened to withhold statehood from Utah and the "prophet" at that time arbitrarily overturned the doctrine.

Now, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound much like Christianity.

reply to post by Deetermined

I don't think the average person is going to be condemned for not practicing the Sabbath on Saturday (Seventh Day Adventists),

You are correct in saying this, in the respect that if they didn't have knowledge that they were meant to keep it they would not be condemned. Adventist's only hold that other people will be condemned on the count of the Sabbath commandment during the end days tribulation where an event(s) will occur that will give everybody the knowledge that they are meant to keep it and thus they will have no excuse to say that they unconsciously followed a lie. God is going to take that excuse away from people.

Although this said event is not clear what it would be from historical Adventist theology. I am leaning towards the event being the presentation of the ark of the covenant and ten commandments to the world as described in a prophetic vision which I have post here. If one reads the vision then you will see how that will be true. To me, that makes the most sense

Unfortunately (or fortunately) for you Christians reading the thread, in the series of replies I will give to shed light on the subject and make the case, you should have no excuse left (if my presentation of the facts and analysis of the Bible are up to par)

reply to post by adjensen

Now, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound much like Christianity.

No, but it does sound like some of the pagan religions Christianity stole its traditions from. Many of them taught self-empowerment, and said that you are practically your own god - if you learn the right practices. Just as with walking, if you don't practice, you will forget it. Or if you never practice walking at all, you'll never learn it. Your muscles will be underdeveloped...just like the areas of the brain commonly attributed to spirituality.

That was their view, anyway. And even then, as per the nature of mankind, spirituality was divide into those who practiced it for control, some who practiced it for understanding, and some who practiced it for the peace of mind. Lately, we're seeing more of the first type, those who want control and those who want to be controlled. I have a theory that spirituality didn't work out at first, whether it had been planted by Jesus or not. And so we focused on material mastery, in order to deeper understand our physical reality.

There's a thread I have been participating in regularly, titled "The Vanity of Enlightenment". In that thread, the subject of talking about an idea in contradictory terms inspired me to express something I have felt for a while now. When we communicate (and this is important, as it has profound implications for every holy text in existence) we use physical mediums that require a box to be built around the ideas we are attempting to communicate. Sound, sight...all of these things require an anchor, a line that is drawn around the idea to distinguish its dimensions. And when this happens, it freezes. It's a fossil. It is the taxidermied corpse of an idea that was contained in order to be understood. As a result, that idea cannot grow with our understanding of the world. We advance 50 years, and those words gain a couple new shades of meaning. That's it. We don't bear a full comprehension of how every word can be used, of how every idea can grow, of the intentions and the possibilities for every word we speak. And because of that, when we share an idea through talking or text, that beautiful "impression" that you don't hear or think, you feel, it has to be translated into a more basic and rough representation. A Porsche looks beautiful, but tear off a rim and that little piece just doesn't compare. It's like translating a Michelangelo painting into 1's and 0's. All of that emotion, that inspiration, all of those meanings and emotions evoked by a painted canvas...all reduced to series of numbers. A bar code.

All explicit knowledge requires explicit translation, and all translation is imperfect.

So here's where I'm going with this: just like artwork is converted into 1's and 0's, so we convert our ideas into words and sentences. And like our ideas, material mastery was another way of educating us in spirituality. The world around us, the physical world, is a physical representation of our spiritual condition. It is a translation. And since we weren't getting the subtleties of spirituality, maybe we had to switch to a more blunt medium, one that would be more suitable for our vessels.

But just like that artwork, a lot of that loses meaning in the translation. Sometimes we improve vocabulary so as to better express what we think. But sometimes...we just stop stretching our mind. And when we stop stretching our mind, that's when we stop learning how to translate. But how are we supposed to know if we're doing it right?

I eagerly await the day science answers that question for us.

reply to post by adjensen

Well, it's not exactly on-topic, but Mormons are polytheists, who don't believe that Christ saves you,

Or do they?

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. The Holy Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ's mother was Mary, His father on earth was Joseph, that He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, and labored with Joseph as a carpenter. When he turned 30, He began a three-year ministry of teaching, blessing, and healing the people of the Holy Land. He also organized His Church and gave His apostles "power and authority" (Luke 9:1) to assist in His work.

But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer? Each of these titles point to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, he is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

mormon.org...

As for everything else that they believe, I have absolutely no idea how much they or anyone else with an expanded doctrine will be judged. Something tells me that Joseph Smith may not come out of the judgement unscathed for holding his book equal with the Bible, but I can only hope that some or most of his followers hold the doctrine in the Bible to a much higher regard.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

Now, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound much like Christianity.

No, but it does sound like some of the pagan religions Christianity stole its traditions from.

Such as?

That makes zero sense -- Christianity "stole its traditions" from prior religions, and yet those traditions are manifested in the Mormons, not the Christians?

Apart from vague generalities, I see nothing in common between LDS theology and other ancient religions, though feel free to correct me.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, it's not exactly on-topic, but Mormons are polytheists, who don't believe that Christ saves you,

Or do they?

Nope.

All will be judged by a perfectly merciful and just God. Latter-day Saint scripture also teaches that in our resurrected state, we will have a perfect knowledge of our past actions and desires; based on these, we will inherit a place in a realm of glory corresponding to our faithfulness. Building upon the Apostle Paul’s teachings to the Corinthians, Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that there are three degrees of glory: the celestial, terrestrial and telestial. While all human beings will receive the gift of eternal life, or an eternal union of the body and spirit, God desires for us to live in such a way that we also receive the gift of exaltation — eternal life with our families in God’s presence in the celestial kingdom. (Source)

That's universal salvation -- you're saved by God's mercy, not Christ's sacrifice.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

You are correct in saying this, in the respect that if they didn't have knowledge that they were meant to keep it they would not be condemned. Adventist's only hold that other people will be condemned on the count of the Sabbath commandment during the end days tribulation where an event(s) will occur that will give everybody the knowledge that they are meant to keep it and thus they will have no excuse to say that they unconsciously followed a lie. God is going to take that excuse away from people.

Pretty similar to you, I believe that the truth on the matter will be revealed most likely during the tribulation.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Jesus upheld the standard of truth, justice and righteousness, while rendering a verdict of mercy and forgiveness.

It's a double bind on sin and evil by a limitless love.

To really "get it" is to be both brought into the tears of repentance, and then out into the tears of joy and even hilarity.

Think of God's love in Christ as the wind that blows through the divided middle which is also the twin pillars of Justice and Mercy, as a set standard as tall as the universe is long.

If it evokes anger, rage, bitterness, and nothing more, then at some level a person is dead already according to a hardened heart, but it's designed in such a way that it's capable of making even the most hardened heart of stone back into a heart of flesh.

I think the acid test, from what I've been able to discern, resides in one's ability to cry, and to laugh in regards to our own human folly and even in relation to our worst aspects.

It is only the devil within who sneers ferociously at it, because by it's very nature and by design it is an all-or-nothing proposition which makes no compromise whatsoever with sin and evil ie: to be curative, it must cut to the core where evil and rebellion lives and there bind the "strong man", whereby our true strength is measured in our weakness and where virtue may be defined as power, restrained.

It's a fantastic "predicament", the final resolution to the age old problem of human sin and evil, which carries with it it's own logic and reason.

I'll take it, even if it hurts, at first..

"That which hurts, instructs."
~ Ben Franklin

reply to post by adjensen

Such as?

That makes zero sense -- Christianity "stole its traditions" from prior religions, and yet those traditions are manifested in the Mormons, not the Christians?

Apart from vague generalities, I see nothing in common between LDS theology and other ancient religions, though feel free to correct me.

All religions are interconnected in strange ways. It's been argued that this is proof of divine influence...although I prefer a different argument:



But in all seriousness, no matter what window you look from, if the homo genus originated in one particular area, and then made a regular practice of spreading out from it's various branches, there's no reason to think that all religions wouldn't have a common ancestor or two.

reply to post by adjensen


So let me get this straight adjensen, what you have presented for your case is a verse from Mark 2:27, somewhat unclear in meaning read as is, but easily defeated when read in context and analysed

If you think that God cares what specific day of the week you set aside to rest and worship, and would predicate salvation on it, you have a pretty low opinion of God.

A personal opinion about God which is completely at odds with the story from Eden where Jesus had to come to this world to die a cruel death just for what, a bite out of a piece of fruit from one person! Adam and Eve thrown out of the paradise, forced to live a life of toil and having to experience death

If you think God cares about disobedience even in what you perceive to be small things, then yes....God cares a great deal.
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and your final highest truth is:

It [Sabbath] was "set aside" under Judaic Law

So which Judaic Law was God following when the Sabbath was first set aside for us at the beginning of time?
Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

Which Judaic Law were the ancient Hebrews endevoring to keep before the Exodus from Egypt?

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest [strongs #7673] from their burdens.

Exodus 5:5 'rest' Strong's #7673 'shabbat', found used in Genesis 2:2

7673. shâbath shaw-bath'; a primitive root; to repose, i.e. desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific):—(cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

Strong, James (2011-05-14). Strong's Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 29062-29066). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Which Judaic law were the Hebrews following when they collected manna as they wandered the wilderness as described in Exodus 16, where no manna was to be collected on the 7th day
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Would you like another shot at making your case (as so far your arguments are abysmal on any kind of first inspection)?

I am happy to answer your best points individually first and so you can process in your own mind what you think is true (rather than just hearing my argument first and then going into a denial state) so I can meet you where you are at...

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


As for the link you provided, I think you would be better off using scripture since it doesn't appear that Ernie Knoll's words or visions can be totally trusted.

Thu, Jul 23, 2009 -- That which we at NotAProphet.org have long believed and reported about Ernie Knoll has finally been acknowledged by Ernie to be true: his prophetic claims are fraudulent.

According to recent developments reported at Ernie Knoll's "4 His People" website and a supporting website bearing a very similar name, about a week ago a short note was released by Ernie and his wife stating that they no longer believe his dreams were from God. However, it was determined shortly thereafter by the Board of his ministry that Ernie had been deceptive on at least two points. Ernie and his wife have now been suspended from his ministry and his dreams and all related materials have been removed from his website, replaced with a heartfelt confession and apology by the Board.

www.notaprophet.org...