An open question on the character of the divine in relation to Judgement

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posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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This is a statement my religion holds to be true in relation to a guiding principle governing how God will decide who makes it into heaven or who will no longer exist when all is completed.


In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth.

White, Ellen G. Patriarchs and Prophets - Chapter 3, The Temptation and Fall, p. 55


Does this guiding principle show fairness to people from all walks of life no matter their religion/belief of their upbringing or reflect a desirable characteristic of the one who is to judge our fate?

How might this principle impact people who gloss over contradictory evidence presented on the forums here to save face in discussions?

What principles in life would God want to encourage us to life by in relation to having doctrine told to us by leaders of religion claiming authority?

Enjoy!
edit on 16-2-2013 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:42 PM
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A truly benevolent being is incapable of true judgment. It takes a certain amount of conceit to judge something, and love doesn't pander to conceit.

Any god that judges someone whom it designed from birth unto death is a conceited god, for that god believes that it is above its own flaws. And yet it does not see its creations that way. What a disgrace.
edit on 16-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:25 PM
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How could anyone hold you accountable for believing what you were taught as a child?

This is my main problem with religion....condemnation without regard to circumstances.

How many of us believe zero-tolerance policies are indicative of loving guidance and mercy? Yet, isn't that exactly what some religions claim?

Sorry you were raised Hindu and didn't get the message. Sucks for you. Now, off to hell you go....



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:34 PM
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hmm ...
judgement sounds like a legal term.

methinks the bible is a law book.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:48 PM
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In this day and age, the gospel has reached all corners of the earth. Those who hear the gospel and reject it, are subject to the Law of God, and the resulting judgement for breaking the Law (sin). So, the question is what about those who died before Christ's life, and those who have never heard the Gospel?

Those who died in faith looking forward to the messiah, were justified in faith to God. For example, Abraham looked forward to the coming of the messiah and kept the Law of God. He is redeemed in his faith. So then, are others who show the same faith in God prior to the Gospel and sacrifice of Christ.

What of those who had never heard of God and the gospel? We know that God will do what is just and right. For those who have never heard the Law of God can not be judged by the Law. Their heart will be their witness as to what they have done right or wrong, and will be judged accordingly in the presence of Christ. We all have the Law of God written on our hearts. We know that lying, stealing, murdering, raping, and slandering are not how to live ones life. Deep down in our soul we know this; this is how our hearts will be our witnesses.

God is loving, merciful, and gracious...He is also a rightious, holy, just, infinate God. Our finite works of good can not cover the infinate offence of sin to God. Only the infinate sacrifice of Jesus Christ can cover the infinate sin we create.
This is my take on what I studied and what I hold true.

This is a really good question you posted OP. S&F for you.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
How might this principle impact people who gloss over contradictory evidence presented on the forums here to save face in discussions?

Well .. stop doing it and you won't be so nervous about it.


Originally posted by smyleegrl
This is my main problem with religion....condemnation without regard to circumstances.

This is my main problem with many organized religions and cults .. condemnation and arrogance and, as the OP said, a glossing over of any facts that show their positions are wrong.

Excellent post smyleegrl.
edit on 2/16/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 



Does this guiding principle show fairness to people from all walks of life no matter their religion/belief of their upbringing or reflect a desirable characteristic of the one who is to judge our fate?


I think Matthew 25 speaks volume.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’


Peace



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Very interesting thread. I was thinking about this very thing earlier today. My thought was a bit different.

If we read much of the New Testament, we would conclude that most of the 7 billion people on Earth today would be lost souls. Further, by the conditions set in the sermon on the mount an in 1 John, nobody could be saved by their own works if they remain in sin. We ALL sin. There is no use saying there are those who don't. As 1 John points out, this would be a lie. If it is true that we are born again and we are now in the first resurrection, then the majority of humanity is likely lost to the error of selfishness and greed. A simple question can be asked. Are we the handiwork of God? Keep this question in mind.

The next thing I consider is that most of religion implies that the balance of a person's life, whether good or evil, is weighed in the judgment of God. If the scales hang low on the side of evil, we go to hell. This is a view many people have.

Now, go back to to the idea that we are God's handiwork. If God is just, and we represent divine work and perfection, how will the scales of humanity reflect God's work in and through us? Will mankind reflect God's goodness and effort? If the majority of humanity end up in hell, was God's work successful? Is God judged by the same measure used in his own judgment against us. To know to do good, but to walk the other direction is sin. Can God be just if his only job shows to be a lost cause due to poor design?

The real question is this: Can we love another person more than God loves us? Can we love our children more than God loves His? We are fallen and less than divine. Being part beast and part divinity, we lack the context to even understand this kind of love. Knowing this, I rely on Paul's words here:

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

What about 1 John?

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

God is love.

Love keeps no records of wrongs.

What is the material world for? What is it's purpose? To show God's love. How do we exit this place?

Where is heaven? How do we get there?

Will God fail? Faith requires that God is faithful and our trust in salvation means he will not dishonor that trust. God's work will be complete. He goes after 1 lost sheep, even when the other 99 are already safe.

In other words, God is 100%.

edit on 16-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Therefore, God does not judge.

There is no free will. I didn't choose this. Even when I choose something, I don't choose it. God chose this. The universe chose this. I'm just a passer by. Here today gone tomorrow. The plan was set in motion before I got here and ever since I arrived, I've been carrying out this plan that precedes me. If i had made the plan myself, it might could be said that I have free will, but since I didn't, them I am not the planner. I am the plan.

Unless I am the planner.

Love is for the plan to cope with not being the planner. Love for the planner makes you special and much is rewarded to you.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Therefore, God does not judge.

There is no free will. I didn't choose this. Even when I choose something, I don't choose it. God chose this. The universe chose this. I'm just a passer by. Here today gone tomorrow. The plan was set in motion before I got here and ever since I arrived, I've been carrying out this plan that precedes me. If i had made the plan myself, it might could be said that I have free will, but since I didn't, them I am not the planner. I am the plan.

Unless I am the planner.

Love is for the plan to cope with not being the planner. Love for the planner makes you special and much is rewarded to you.


Good point. To me, it seems clear that we do not make the sun shine. If it shines tomorrow, it wasn't my decision. The same holds true for my eyes seeing and my hair growing. My body is not produced by me. The fact that I will sleep tomorrow night and wake in the morning is not something I regulate. I do, however, have the choice to stay up late or go to be early.

There are two things I can do in this life: I think and I move. The quality of those two things produces the quality of my life. I can move to a new job, think good thoughts and love my family with purpose. There are many things I can do to produce my own world or destroy it. The sun will still shine. Seven years of tribulation will still happen. Christ will still return. The bankers financial tables will still be flipped. I can echo the fact it will happen, but I cannot change the story God tells us.

I can, however, change my story by thinking and moving with purpose and intent.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



There are two things I can do in this life: I think and I move. The quality of those two things produces the quality of my life. I can move to a new job, think good thoughts and love my family with purpose. There are many things I can do to produce my own world or destroy it. The sun will still shine. Seven years of tribulation will still happen. Christ will still return. The bankers financial tables will still be flipped. I can echo the fact it will happen, but I cannot change the story God tells us.


I was rather amused to find this post almost completely reposted from the "Where is Heaven?" thread. So I decided to follow your lead and copy my response from that thread to here:

You will never, ever know if that's really you doing the thinking or doing. In the Men In Black movies, those people who are neuralized are able to question the possibility that they might have been. But even if they were, they can never prove it without the help of the agents who did that to them. In real life, you are able to question the possibility of an outside force powerful beyond anything you can imagine just reaching in and flipping a switch or rewriting your script and erasing every memory of the original version...even going so far as to replace those absent memories with new ones to keep you from figuring it out. And even if that's exactly what happened, you would be unable to prove it.

So really, you can't say for a fact that you are free and independent. As long as an omnipotent being with its own agenda lurks out there somewhere, you aren't safe. Your thoughts aren't safe. Your life is not safe. Nothing about you is safe. The moment he wants something from you, your say in the matter is nonexistent. You are a sacrifice waiting to happen. He's just kind enough to allow you the illusion of freedom until that moment when he decides that his desires are more important than yours.

It's a terrifying concept. And the worst part is, you can't prove me wrong.
edit on 17-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 



A truly benevolent being is incapable of true judgment. It takes a certain amount of conceit to judge something, and love doesn't pander to conceit.


Obviously the statement from the OP is in relation to the Christian idea of God. How does your views on conceit play out when Jesus came to this Earth to experience a complete human life, to be exposed to what we are exposed to so His decision is not based on any kind of lack of knowledge about human experience?

How does conceit come into the mix when Jesus knew He would be unjustly humiliated, punished, tortured and killed by incarnating Himself in human form to come down to Earth?

How does conceit come into the mix when He is not only our judge but also our advocate before the Father and this advocacy is of no cost to us...we either accept it or we don't


Any god that judges someone whom it designed from birth unto death is a conceited god

What would be the outcome, given human nature, for a benevolent god to design a world for us to experience that had no in-grained rules and thus no ability to judge morality by. Given the testimony of what occurs in the world under conditions of freewill, would you want to live under conditions of lawlessness? Please explain how this would be better if so?

Considering that the messages Jesus gives tell us that this life is temporary, to not be concerned about the hardships or trials of this life, that how you react to circumstances in showing your character is what is important, and character development towards ideals of liberty, love and ordered harmony is what He seeks...how is this picture reconciled with your view which seems to emphasis flaws in creation and some aspect of pre-programming (design)?



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 



Obviously the statement from the OP is in relation to the Christian idea of God. How does your views on conceit play out when Jesus came to this Earth to experience a complete human life, to be exposed to what we are exposed to so His decision is not based on any kind of lack of knowledge about human experience?


That's not how the Bible tells it. His purpose was clear: give a message, die to wipe our slate clean, give us another chance.



How does conceit come into the mix when Jesus knew He would be unjustly humiliated, punished, tortured and killed by incarnating Himself in human form to come down to Earth?


How does love come into the mix when "God" knew ahead of time that all this would be necessary, and didn't bother to push the restart button? He could have imagined a whole new world, right up to that particular day in an alternate timeline, and just wished it into being. But he had to kill his son instead.


What would be the outcome, given human nature, for a benevolent god to design a world for us to experience that had no in-grained rules and thus no ability to judge morality by. Given the testimony of what occurs in the world under conditions of freewill, would you want to live under conditions of lawlessness? Please explain how this would be better if so?


Abolish sin, or make us all gods. End of story.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 



How could anyone hold you accountable for believing what you were taught as a child?

This is exactly right....it is unfortunate that religion is such a dirty word that has tarnished the character of God as a whole that teaches things about Him that simply aren't true.

Religion, a majority of Christianity (the false prophet) most of all, that has this false teaching about God's character and fairness seem to be channeling the spirit of His accuser more than anything and furthering their own nest on power over the minds of people at the expense of destroying people's spirituality and love for God


How many of us believe zero-tolerance policies are indicative of loving guidance and mercy? Yet, isn't that exactly what some religions claim?

It is a good way to decide the true from the false....who teaches principles/policies that are contrary to God's character (or the kind of character we would want our God to have)
edit on 17-2-2013 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 




How does love come into the mix when "God" knew ahead of time that all this would be necessary, and didn't bother to push the restart button?


To answer this question you need to understand the purpose and backdrop of our creation.

Prior to our creation a dispute had broken out in heaven concerning the nature of God's character and the need for the angels to be subject to the Divine Law (aka the 10 commandments). This dispute was lead by the head archangel Lucifer out of jealously he was feeling towards Jesus (then known as Arch angel Michael). The heavenly Father had not made it clearly known of Jesus'true state in Heaven but the angels were to worship Jesus just the same as the Father. The Father confided details with Jesus that He did not tell anyone else. Lucifer felt that it wasn't enough for him to be the most magnificent highest created being in heaven in charge of a great deal of angels and positioned right near the throne of God (as a covering angel over the Heavenly ark of the covenant), he felt he deserved more and also felt that the angels were high enough that they did not need to follow God's law.

As Lucifer wanted to be worshiped like Jesus was and usurp the government of Heaven so he could be sovereign ruler, he began to sow the seeds of discontent among the other angels he could influence. He suggested that God was somehow being harsh or severe (the truth of the matter was that they lived in idyllic surrounds, had tremendous powers, abilities, liberty and access to immortality) but then passed off his own lies as coming form other angels. The way Lucifer engineered this discontent in Heaven was in such a way that did not reveal to the other angels his true character and ambitions (this was only known by the Father and Jesus and who could foresee where it would lead).

So now God has a real big problem on His hands right...under the law Lucifer's rebellion from God's authority was punishable by death but if God killed Lucifer right then and there it would have only helped confirm in the minds of the angels that perhaps God was cruel and harsh so the matter of the worth of God's law would have gone unresolved forever. So ....this is where we come in.

The third of the angels that where duped into Lucifer's lies and Lucifer himself were thrown out of Heaven to this Earth. The purpose of them being here with us is to show what Heaven would have been like under his command if Lucifer was given that authority, to show what Lucifer's character was really like and the consequences of pain and death and hurt that occur when we aren't in God's Divine Law. When we see your leaders who have put their allegiances to Satan to reach the level they have gotten to and see the kind of corruption thay they involve themself in, this is all a testament to Satan's true character and the fruit bore by his authority.

Why would God want to push the restart button on us. He has designed a world for us that we can live in harmony with His law if we wish, where we can show through our character that our aims are towards His ultimate aims of looking out for the best for us, He has designed a world that will be a testament to all the intelligent life in the universe why God's law is perfect and embracing transgression from the law brings heartache. God's intention for us was not to design the perfect Earth where we are free from any trouble, it was to create an environment that would prove through our experiences that we are fit to replace the angels that were thrown out of Heaven.

A person in the remote islands of the Pacific may never have heard of God or now anything about what He directly desires. But the person has a built in moral compass and his.her unique experience can be judged as well as anyones whether they stood for heavenly principles with their life or not.

In our modern world where people have much easier access to information (and being subject to disinfo and mind control), how people are judged is subject to different factors but still the same guiding principle of not judging them if they consciously believe a lie but rather judging them on what they did with what they new as true, and their resolve to pursue truth under difficult internal and external circumstances.
edit on 17-2-2013 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by tinhattribunal

hmm ...
judgement sounds like a legal term.

methinks the bible is a law book.


Somewhat, it is also a love story and a giant conflict of good and evil that will be eventually settled for all time.

Have you considered how a law reflects the character of the law-giver

Consider who laws you feel are unjust or favor certain groups at the expense of others reflect a lawgiver who is corrupt.

Now consider God's Law of the 10 commandments....think how this reflects His character and also His interest in maintaining harmony and joy for all. Think about societies than closest reflected living by God's law and how they prospered (would not the early foundations of America's highest laws be a good case in point). Think about those counties/empires that perverted God's law and how stagnation, fear and hardship were the result.

Of course people might wish to decry being subject to an overriding law as restrictive, but if it is in their best interests and the best interests of those around them then what is the concern?

Surely we would not complain about a parents wish to assert some rules and guidelines over a child right. Is the child really experiencing any kind of lasting freedom by being able to ride their bike on a busy road 'just because they can when the likely result is well known to be severe injury or death for the child. Well when it comes to God's law it is like Him being our parent and us as children not having the foresight to see the negative consequences from disobey His Law. If we look at the character of the law-giver by studying Jesus'life we can be sure that what is given to us is meant for our best interests only.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 



In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth.

So, from this statement, we can assume that people are not condemned because they believed a lie, but because they didn't "spread their wings" and find the truth, buried in the nugget of some particular cult's myopic teachings.

But what is the truth in Ellen White's writings? Can one respect this statement, based on the person giving it?


E. G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851: "Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." EARLY WRITINGS p. 57 (Source)

From William Miller to Ellen White, the Seventh Day Adventist history is mired in false and failed prophecy, as well as a salvation that is rooted in works (adhering to Judaic Law as regards the Sabbath) and works alone.

Putting one's faith in someone who is so wrong, and so consistently wrong, doesn't seem like the best of ideas.



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


To answer your post properly can I say that your standard of truth is the Word of God, and that God would not put contradictions into his Word so that we can be confused, the confusion you be in properly understanding the meaning of a passage of scripture and not the scripture itself.

Is that a fair statement?

Because I want to use the Word of God as a basis to answer you (along with other supporting evidence) but can not prove my point if you think the Bible can't be relied upon and there are contradictions.



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by adjensen
 


To answer your post properly can I say that your standard of truth is the Word of God, and that God would not put contradictions into his Word so that we can be confused, the confusion you be in properly understanding the meaning of a passage of scripture and not the scripture itself.

Is that a fair statement?

Surprisingly, my standard of truth is... the truth.

I am not a Fundamentalist, so I do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

I do, however, believe that if one claims to be a Prophet of God, one failed prophecy is all it takes to demonstrate that one is not a Prophet of God. All the excuses, "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" and goal-moving in the world doesn't change that.

edit on 18-2-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 05:46 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



as well as a salvation that is rooted in works (adhering to Judaic Law as regards the Sabbath) and works alone.


I'll pick up on the idea of works salvation a little down the track if need be (you obviously know very little about Adventist theology) but I am really curious to know what are your highest sources of truth which tell that setting aside the Sabbath day to commune with God, to honour Him as Creator (and do good for others among other things) is somehow not desired by God for us? What has given you the impression that a Christian living to the highest truth does not have to be obedient to God in this regard (and isn't meant to keep the Sabbath as part of the Divine Law in Heaven as well)?

I want to ask you this question to give you a chance to defend yourself, because I look across the evidence I have posted across this site (all in different places which you may not have seen before) and I don't see how a person can spin it by any measure of truth out there. The only way I can see it is if you have accepted a lower authority on what is truth than the sources I have (which is basically impossible to get higher authorities than these) and have a confused understanding of the true nature of the Sabbath (that has negatively prejudiced you against it) that I am more than willing to shed proper light on.

I will post on E. White after the Sabbath issue
edit on 19-2-2013 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)






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