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Where is Heaven? How do we make it there?

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posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

On that note I call for a mutiny!

The Justice League shall take over in Yahweh's stead henceforth!

Now Wonder Woman, time to go all Amazonian on Satan's @$$.




posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by mc4denmark
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


By being not allowed to gain knowledge, you are being kept in the darkness. As such, your god kept Adam and eve in darkness, Satan gave them knowledge and therefor gave them enlightenment.
edit on 16-2-2013 by mc4denmark because: (no reason given)


Wrong.

Satan gave the knowledge of good and evil. Subjectivity is what he gave us. Subjectivity makes you able to believe you are god. Good and evil are subjective. Knowledge is objective.

You are not what you think you are.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by smithjustinb
 


Satan gave the knowledge of good and evil. Subjectivity is what he gave us. Subjectivity makes you able to believe you are god. Good and evil are subjective. Knowledge is objective.

You just said the knowledge of good and evil is both subjective and objective. Which means Satan gave us subjectivity and objective truth. Is that not what you meant?



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by smithjustinb
 


Satan gave the knowledge of good and evil. Subjectivity is what he gave us. Subjectivity makes you able to believe you are god. Good and evil are subjective. Knowledge is objective.

You just said the knowledge of good and evil is both subjective and objective. Which means Satan gave us subjectivity and objective truth. Is that not what you meant?


No that's not what I meant.

Knowledge of good and evil is not knowledge at all. It's a belief based on no facts. What is good and what is evil is self proclaimed. Yet, the person will experience their judgement. So you see the good and evil in what you choose to believe is good or evil. What you say is good, I might call evil and neither one of us will be right or wrong because right and wrong only pertains to objective facts and falsehoods.

Therfore, your interpretive magical powers of assigning subjective qualities to the world can lead you to believe that you must be god. But you have created nothing. Even your free will is predetermined by your anatomy.

Free will is an illusion. Act on it. Play along, but see past it.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 02:48 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


We have to get there, from here.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by smithjustinb
 


Free will is an illusion, well, if that is true, then nothing we can do will change how we will feel about a potential god, because our will is not free of choice.

By that fact, none of us should even care about what we are going to do with our life, because our destination has been predetermined.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by mc4denmark
 


Free will exists as an illusion. There are still choices to be made, but they are not made by you. Although it will seem like they are. That is the illusion. I chose none of this. I was born smack dab in the middle of a plan that I didn't make and yet I play along as if I've been playing since the beginning. What's more is I've believed that I made the plan. But I didn't. I just got here. I don't know how. I didn't sign up for it. But here I am and now I have to play along. Fear and love keep you in line.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by mc4denmark
 


Free will exists as an illusion. There are still choices to be made, but they are not made by you. Although it will seem like they are. That is the illusion. I chose none of this. I was born smack dab in the middle of a plan that I didn't make and yet I play along as if I've been playing since the beginning. What's more is I've believed that I made the plan. But I didn't. I just got here. I don't know how. I didn't sign up for it. But here I am and now I have to play along. Fear and love keep you in line.


To me, it seems clear that we do not make the sun shine. If it shines tomorrow, it wasn't my decision. The same holds true for my eyes seeing and my hair growing. My body is not produced by me. The fact that I will sleep tomorrow night and wake in the morning is not something I regulate. I do, however, have the choice to stay up late or go to be early.

There are two things I can do in this life: I think and I move. The quality of those two things produces the quality of my life. I can move to a new job, think good thoughts and love my family with purpose. There are many things I can do to produce my own world or destroy it. The sun will still shine. Seven years of tribulation will still happen. Christ will still return. The bankers financial tables will still be flipped. I can echo the fact it will happen, but I cannot change the story God tells us.

I can, however, change my story by thinking and moving with purpose and intent.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



There are two things I can do in this life: I think and I move. The quality of those two things produces the quality of my life. I can move to a new job, think good thoughts and love my family with purpose.


But you will never, ever know if that's really you doing the thinking or doing. In the Men In Black movies, those people who are neuralized are able to question the possibility that they might have been. But even if they were, they can never prove it without the help of the agents who did that to them. In real life, you are able to question the possibility of an outside force powerful beyond anything you can imagine just reaching in and flipping a switch or rewriting your script and erasing every memory of the original version...even going so far as to replace those absent memories with new ones to keep you from figuring it out. And even if that's exactly what happened, you would be unable to prove it.

So really, you can't say for a fact that you are free and independent. As long as an omnipotent being with its own agenda lurks out there somewhere, you aren't safe. Your thoughts aren't safe. Your life is not safe. Nothing about you is safe. The moment he wants something from you, your say in the matter is nonexistent. You are a sacrifice waiting to happen. He's just kind enough to allow you the illusion of freedom until that moment when he decides that his desires are more important than yours.

It's a terrifying concept. And the worst part is, you can't prove me wrong.
edit on 17-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 




So really, you can't say for a fact that you are free and independent. As long as an omnipotent being with its own agenda lurks out there somewhere, you aren't safe. Your thoughts aren't safe. Your life is not safe. Nothing about you is safe. The moment he wants something from you, your say in the matter is nonexistent. You are a sacrifice waiting to happen. He's just kind enough to allow you the illusion of freedom until that moment when he decides that his desires are more important than yours.

It's a terrifying concept. And the worst part is, you can't prove me wrong.


It is true we cannot know. Studies have shown that a test subject making a choice will subconsciously make it 7 seconds before they make the choice. This show that it is possible we are not the ultimate chooser. There is a delay and our subconscious makes the decision before we perceive we have made it. LINK Does this demonstrate that we do not have free will? Not so fast.

Of all numbers, it had to be 7. As the video below demonstrates, the evidence does not necessarily demonstrate that we lack free will. On the contrary, it appears it is a combination of outside influence with our own decision making. Like the Bible suggests, we have a Shepherd. There is no contradiction, as the commentator states. The excluded middle is that we are never alone.

Watch the entire BBC program for more context.



edit on 17-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Which means free will is a myth?



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Watch between 4-5 minutes.



You don't make your hair grow. You don't make your brain function. So much of our life is done for us. This is representative of God's work in and through us. The collapsing wave function of time is known by God fully. We are both the one witnessing this and the one reacting to it. Our choice is to believe in God or not; to trust and have faith or not; to see with eyes open or plunge our heads in the sand. In the middle of this, we do have the opportunity to work with or against the process. As for your words in the post, they are reflective of this. As you say, we are also puppets on a string. I won't argue with this.

What I will argue with is the significance of the puppet-master being good or evil. We are each shown what we need to be shown for our own ultimate good. Light reveals what is inside, but it also has the chance to change us for the better. We CAN work against the raising of children by the Father. We have the choice to see the Father as loving or try and rise above Him with our own reasoning. In the end, the Father knows best.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Which means free will is a myth?


No. Your free will is a process of surrender to God or being a prodigal son running away from the instruction of the Father. You have this choice only. It's a matter of belief. Surrendering to God is knowing who is the authority in your life. Even Humpty Dumpty knew this.

Throughout the Alice stories, and especially in Through the Looking Glass, Dodgson reveals these three facts about his life and clarifies Humpty in a dialog with Alice. This curious exchange between Alice and Humpty in chapter 6 helps us understand the riddle further:

`And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant, "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.

`They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

Verbs are proud (men) and actively seeking knowledge. Adjectives are easy to influence. Verbs are hard to manage, but God can manage them all.

Notice what he says. Which is to be master? If you think it is you, you are incorrect. As long as you are a child of God, you are not running the show. You do, however, have the offer to grow up. When you do, law is removed and faith in God's guidance is a mutual agreement. More is given when responsibility is observed.

Galatians 3

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Like a child, we can ignore the parents. They will still be there restricting us. All of nature is this example to us. What do we get when we finally see face to face with our true Father? In other words, what is the key to having more freedom? Know the key.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The veil is impenetrable. You cannot pierce it alone. You must enter in with the Shepherd. Two things cannot occupy the same space. Two must become one.

edit on 17-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Which means free will is a myth?


Here is the most important thing I have said to you today:

The veil is impenetrable. You cannot pierce it alone. You must enter in with the Shepherd. Two things cannot occupy the same space. Two must become one.

Rejecting God here is going it alone. You cannot make it without eyes, ears, the sun and the Earth. You have nothing to do with what you are given. Apart from the one giving it, you are alone. Good luck.

I choose to embrace the gift. I am not sufficient on my own to make it without help. We, who are many, must be one with God. It's the only way this can work. Pride keeps us apart.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



The veil is impenetrable. You cannot pierce it alone. You must enter in with the Shepherd. Two things cannot occupy the same space. Two must become one.


I would rather not enter strange territory with a biased party, especially when that biased party is particularly interested in convincing me to sell my soul for immortality. Especially when that biased party owes its allegiance to an almighty entity who would just as soon blast my type of personality as listen to it. Not until he shows me the respect I want. It's my soul - if he wants it, then he can do what I ask. I'm not unreasonable. But a soul is a huge request. If he can't discuss it with me, man to man, then I don't think he deserves to touch it.


I choose to embrace the gift. I am not sufficient on my own to make it without help. We, who are many, must be one with God. It's the only way this can work. Pride keeps us apart.


It's funny that this "God" dude keeps preaching about humility when he's the one who can't stand to be near anything impure. And he demands to be worshipped. And he holds his mistakes against us. And he refuses to come down from his great and glorious throne in the sky. And he can't share any of his power. You would think a father would want to spend time among his children, drink and laugh with them, hold their children, and be intimately known among his family. He wants to be known and remembered. But no. "God" has taken out a PPO on his children. Or at least, he treats us like untouchables.

"Yeah, I'll just give you instructions from way up here. If that doesn't work, I'll give it a few thousand yeas and try again."

If I was going to take lessons on humility, it wouldn't be from "God".



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


It is true we cannot know. Studies have shown that a test subject making a choice will subconsciously make it 7 seconds before they make the choice. This show that it is possible we are not the ultimate chooser. There is a delay and our subconscious makes the decision before we perceive we have made it.

Our subconscious is part of us. We are not just our cognition. You can't discuss psychology and dismiss one.

To be more accurate, yet no less unsettling I suppose, it would be like this:

Our conscious mind doesn't have free will, but our subconscious does



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 




To be more accurate, yet no less unsettling I suppose, it would be like this:

Our conscious mind doesn't have free will, but our subconscious does


I would imagine that would be due to our subconscious being the source of all intuition, instinct, and subliminal processes that determine our reactions and the infrastructure of our dreams and opinions. That's why we have hypnotherapy - that which we are not able to revise on the surface, we must dig deeper to change.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



The veil is impenetrable. You cannot pierce it alone. You must enter in with the Shepherd. Two things cannot occupy the same space. Two must become one.


I would rather not enter strange territory with a biased party, especially when that biased party is particularly interested in convincing me to sell my soul for immortality. Especially when that biased party owes its allegiance to an almighty entity who would just as soon blast my type of personality as listen to it. Not until he shows me the respect I want. It's my soul - if he wants it, then he can do what I ask. I'm not unreasonable. But a soul is a huge request. If he can't discuss it with me, man to man, then I don't think he deserves to touch it.


I choose to embrace the gift. I am not sufficient on my own to make it without help. We, who are many, must be one with God. It's the only way this can work. Pride keeps us apart.


It's funny that this "God" dude keeps preaching about humility when he's the one who can't stand to be near anything impure. And he demands to be worshipped. And he holds his mistakes against us. And he refuses to come down from his great and glorious throne in the sky. And he can't share any of his power. You would think a father would want to spend time among his children, drink and laugh with them, hold their children, and be intimately known among his family. He wants to be known and remembered. But no. "God" has taken out a PPO on his children. Or at least, he treats us like untouchables.

"Yeah, I'll just give you instructions from way up here. If that doesn't work, I'll give it a few thousand yeas and try again."

If I was going to take lessons on humility, it wouldn't be from "God".



Yet, you are still a thorn in his crown. The crown he allowed to be placed on his head is from the same thorn bush burning in the wilderness that appeared to Moses. The fire in the midst of that bush is the one we can put out with water. Water is your immersion into life. There is a purpose to baptism. Baptism is for repentance. The very reason you do not have dimensional access to God directly here is to preserve your choice to repent. You can pray, but the answer to that prayer must come beyond your sense of it. The fire in the crown is the trials we put ourselves through in this life. Again, water can put those out.

Rebellion only brings on the fire. Your Avatar is symbolic of this for all of us. Sinner or saint, we all operate under the same conditions among the elements. It really matters little what you want. God gives you only what you need. The rest is your work. I simply choose not to do it alone.

You make some statements there in the end that suggest God is not among us. Not so. Like I said, we see our side only. He is on both sides. There are two angles. One of darkness and one of light. Our own virtue embraces one or the other. God has nothing to do with darkness. The other Angel is bent on jumping in when we choose to push God aside.

This document is a description of the two Angels.



posted on Feb, 17 2013 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


It is true we cannot know. Studies have shown that a test subject making a choice will subconsciously make it 7 seconds before they make the choice. This show that it is possible we are not the ultimate chooser. There is a delay and our subconscious makes the decision before we perceive we have made it.

Our subconscious is part of us. We are not just our cognition. You can't discuss psychology and dismiss one.

To be more accurate, yet no less unsettling I suppose, it would be like this:

Our conscious mind doesn't have free will, but our subconscious does




I agree. We do have free will over our thoughts and actions. Ask any musician. Free will is the only way to improvise. The very fact we can improve at a task shows our ability to learn. Learning is a process focused by self esteem. The value we place on things is also a choice. I could go on, but we do have choice.



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


It is not that complex and you don't need to sort out what Paul or John wrote, or what a groupd of people wrote down what Jesus had said. There is more selfishness is religion than there is actual faith.

From the people before the time of the bible who created words, heaven meant the sky and up into the universe. It was an idea that created heaven to mean anything other than that.





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