Where is Heaven? How do we make it there?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


People have a better life if the do what they want to to, fitness freaks have a better life when they are allowed to exercise, others don't. Life quality is not measured in your health, it has a lot of factors, mainly freedom of choice.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

You are using it like hail Mary. This is a salutation to highly praise. Darkness can be overcome by light. Light cannot overcome darkness.

Did you read those last two sentences before you posted? Are you drunk?

Light will always be there. With a strong enough source, darkness and shadow can be overcome.

Why would you want to abolish all darkness though? What point does life have if you're not learning? What do you learn without making mistakes or being corrected in some way? Pure light as an eternal existence is plain boring. Having room to screw up and experience imperfection is a blessing. Otherwise, you're just a robot.

Is that the point of heaven? To be a robot? I'll gladly go to hell if it means I'm allowed to be human and have human experiences. Your god can kiss my hindquarters if he wants to take that from me, if he expects me to surrender my freedom to be human.

Once again, we fight all our lives to be free of dictators, only to gladly surrender ourselves to the biggest one of all when we die. In death, we embrace the exact opposite of everything we fought for in life. If that's what you believe in, then you're already dead.

edit on 16-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Environment has everything to do with education. Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." Knowledge is not wisdom. They are complementary. When we finally have a context of truth as our environment, the error we leave behind will be the reflecting point. Did you watch the video in the OP about the echo?

reply to post by EnochWasRight

We can argue the statistics all day, but the generalization here is that if you take more than you give, you end up empty.

Then please, please say "if you take more than you give, you end up empty."
It's far more powerful and accurate a way to state it. I'm saying: "You are shutting people out and off by using this 'generalization' analogy of yours!"
See what I mean?

And besides, WHY do you think it is that homeless persons find comfort in smoking tobacco? People have done this for thousands of years. I see it as a symptom of discontent, a coping mechanism. The ideas of God and Heaven are equally 'coping mechanisms.'

To answer the title of the OP:
Heaven is in your core and your soul. You can be there RIGHT NOW if you simply let go of worldly "possession" of "objects". It's about love and compassion. I know you know this. I hope you know that I know that you know this!

You seem, though, to be stuck on this 'giving/taking' crusade. I don't know why, and would never presume to analyze from your online posts alone (though it's tempting! ) what your background or history is......
But, I like the OP's question.


Interesting online experience viewed this morning:

Originally posted by cody599
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Jesus said a lot of stuff
So did Hitler
Both had a massive following and both had slaughter done in their names.
Am I comparing Jesus to Hitler ? NO
Just an observation that sheeple follow strong speech makers.
Then said people spend a lifetime trying to impose their ideals on free thinking minds; usually without result. Why ? A free thinking mind is a part of a free thinking soul. If you want the truth look into yourself , see past the teaching, and look to learn.

People follow. True. History both proceeded and follows God. He draws the future into the past so we see it pass by twice. He gets us coming and going. Hitler came in on one timeline and promptly left. We see him as we review the past only. There is a huge difference that can be verified by both directions of time. Only the one that is the beginning and end can do this.

reply to post by wildtimes

You seem, though, to be stuck on this 'giving/taking' crusade. I don't know why, and would never presume to analyze from your online posts alone (though it's tempting! ) what your background or history is......
But, I like the OP's question.

I'm stuck on it because it's the meaning of life in total. There is no higher truth or axiom than this. All of the Bible in total is a commentary on the one single truth that is above all. It's better to give than receive. Built into this one truth is a broader truth that then outlines all the rest. Giving requires suffering for what is first earned. This is bread of shame. We could not give God anything before our existence here. We cannot give God anything here apart from what we give to others as a reflection of God's will. His will is to give and receive. The best is to be the one giving. Receiving is good as well, but taking is the electron.

Hydrogen has one proton and one electron in balance. All other elements have a neutron. The neutron and proton are together. The electron is the one outside the center. The mirror of this is Christ in the middle of the two thieves. One repents and the other does not. We have no way of giving to God, but we can give to others. It's the only bread we have to offer.

The sadness in this are all those who take. The paradox is the realization that we are all the ones taking. How can we be both the thief and the one trying not to be a thief? The answer is that we cannot give that gift. Only one has earned the right to give that gift away and he offers it to mankind as a free gift of grace and mercy.

Find that truth in another story and you can say that there are other ways to God. My point in the OP is that the gateway to Heaven is found in the Son. His name is the character of giving and receiving.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I blame it all on "God". He is the one who gave us all our flaws, he is the one who created the devil, he is the one who unleashed the devil upon the earth, and he is the one who decided not to push the reset button but leave it up to us to fulfill his wish of being served by a perfect race.

I am the one who wants to be human. But I feel I am punished for being human. I feel we are ALL being punished for being human.

The gift of life requires a son to be raised to maturity. Gifts must be earned. Your future robe reflects your current work.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

The gift of life requires a son to be raised to maturity. Gifts must be earned. Your future robe reflects your current work.

Why must I earn what he has predetermined according to how he designed me? He already knows if I'm going to heaven or hell, and why, because he is the judge who engineered my entire life and my fate. I am merely the poor fool who was chosen to play the role.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well according to most believers, we are all borne sinners, and have to make amends by throwing us to the ground for god.

Talk about a cynical view :/

I thought this map to heaven may help.

I don't where heaven is but it's damn sure not up. Considering that the earth spins and the galaxy
spins and we are all standing at divergent points on the exterior of this blue ball in space....I don't
know where it is but UP is certainly an ambiguous direction.

How do you get there? You wait until that robotic sack of meat and bones you're wearing
completely wears out and hope for the best.

Originally posted by mc4denmark
Well, if it was not for Satan, according to the old bible, we as people would not have been aware. So in other words, Satan was the one whom set us free.

From my point of view Genesis talks about the (illusion of) Knowing what is good and evil not knowledge itself? You can be very aware without being small minded and dualistic. But dualistic thinking does give people the freedom to be bullies and egoist without any empathy when you keep justifying behavior with small minded thinking, like hate based on small minded differences that really do not make a real difference.

I am very happy that I am "free" of that kind of freedom. I am gladly a slave to higher ideals, oneness and love.

reply to post by Klassified


As if the fundamentalists know the truth of what is anyway. They have their view and I have mine. If what you call god demanded that a human should know the whole truth to go home then only the people who now everything that is would be able to go home.

You do not really need faith or any religious indoctrination to be guided home. The only thing needed is an open mind who seeks answers to it's questions who can follow the synchronicity that appears (the thing some people describes as god:s works in mysterious ways).

reply to post by LittleByLittle

As if the fundamentalists know the truth of what is anyway.

Ahhh. But they think they do, just like every other sect of Christianity. Just ask one of them.

If what you call god

I don't call anything God. I'm a Xtian turned atheist.

You do not really need faith or any religious indoctrination to be guided home. The only thing needed is an open mind who seeks answers to it's questions who can follow the synchronicity that appears (the thing some people describes as god:s works in mysterious ways).

Now this part is interesting. I'm not sure what you are calling home, but synchronicity is an interesting topic. My life has been filled with it. More so in the past several years.

reply to post by Klassified

I don't call anything God. I'm a Xtian turned atheist.

Does that mean you believe all of reality is the product of pure chaos and nothing more?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

No. But I won't go into it here. I don't want to totally derail EWR's thread. Simply put though. I leave room for the possibility of a creative force. I just don't call it god, or divine.

reply to post by Klassified

No. But I won't go into it here. I don't want to totally derail EWR's thread. Simply put though. I leave room for the possibility of a creative force. I just don't call it god, or divine.

Considering the supposed nature of Heaven, I will be so bold as to ask you how you define the word "divine". The Judaic system has monopolized the word, but surely there's an older meaning? What do you think?

I would like to add a selection from Wikipedia under the heading "Divinity":

Such things are regarded as "divine" due to their transcendental origins, and/or because their attributes or qualities are superior or supreme relative to things of the Earth.[1] Divine things are regarded as eternal and based in truth,[1] while material things are regarded as ephemeral and based in illusion.

Basically, a quality/attribute identified with the ultimate universal nature of reality superceding and transcending reality as understood on Earth. So again, what are your thoughts?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Divine things are regarded as eternal and based in truth

My problem with the concept of God, and/or divinity is two fold. Religion sees the divine/god as something, or rather someone to be worshipped. From my perspective, there is no being in existence that deserves my worship. Nor do I deserve its worship. Even if such a being is the 3 Omni's. It is a sentient entity, just like I am. Though it may be superior in many ways.

Secondly, how would I know there is such a being as one who is eternal, and based in truth? That creative force I mentioned could just as easily have been a fallible species native to this planet that set the gears in motion for our existence. Or any other number of scenario's.

Bottom line is, I have a really big problem with worshipping anything, or anyone. I spent too much of my life worshipping something that, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist like man thinks it does.

Hopefully that made sense to you.

reply to post by Klassified

Bottom line is, I have a really big problem with worshipping anything, or anyone. I spent too much of my life worshipping something that, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist like man thinks it does.

And if such a force doesn't need worship? If such a force were not even conscious? I myself do not believe in a god. I believe in a force much like gravity. Its only purpose is preservation, that order might be given a chance to do what it does best - build something worth knowing and remembering.

Such a law doesn't require worship. But I do venerate its effects. I have respect for it, which is worth far more to me than worship. Respect means that I am aware of its flaws, of the sacrifices it must make to compensate for its shortcomings, and I still admire it because of what is accomplished therein. The law of preservation, I guess you could call it. Preserving the universe from chaos.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

There would be no Satan without God, for God created Satan.

God looked at the hostile Universe he created and thought to himself "you know what this needs? A powerful purely evil demi-god."

Thanks god. Much appreciated

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

God looked at the hostile Universe he created and thought to himself "you know what this needs? A powerful purely evil demi-god."

Surely such a blessing is the gift of a purely benevolent overlord, right? I mean, even if Superman or Batman or Spiderman or any hero we've ever heard of would have hunted such a creature down and contained or terminated it instead of bestowing it upon those they loved most...

Still, it was an act of love. The lord works in mysterious ways!