Faith VS Hope. The freeman´s will VS the slaves illusion.

Originally posted by Shema
There's that old saying that goes:

'Hope is the final refuge of the coward' meaning that when the chips are down you can either get off your A and do something practical or just hope like hell things will come out right.

There is also the old saying you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, which in this case can be rephrased to, you can have faith/hope in one hand and crap in the other and the probable outcome will be the same in all three cases.

the blind will see what darkness they can.......↑↑↑

hope is a trap,I agree.

when the chips are down, the last place you should keep your ass is down with them.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
the blind will see what darkness they can.......↑↑↑

hope is a trap,I agree.

when the chips are down, the last place you should keep your ass is down with them.

edit on 18-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

Hope seems to be the last thing to go out the window at the point were we understand that the situation will not live up to or fulfill expectations. Hope can drag us along for a good while long after faith has been scuttled.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


So, who says 'Death is light as a feather, Duty as heavy as a Mountain, and hope is the fulcrum where they balance' bet you don't know !

reply to post by CarbonBase



"Hope is not a strategy. Luck is not a factor. Fear is not an option."
-------------------------------------------------------------


Oh, not the Japanese it was Robert Jordan....

I stand corrected....I was thinking of a WW2 quote. Still Robert Jordan said nothing of hope in it,......

Thanks BTW,.....good quote.

www.thequotefactory.com...

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Faith isn't a guarantee either.

edit on 16-2-2013 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

In the Op view and I must allow myself to say, in my view too, faith is guaranteed because it is knowing something will happen. The concept includes confidence and certainty and will bring to success if it is fed with enough confidence and certainty.

Concerning hope, it is similar to faith but it lacks the high level of confidence and certainty and leaves a doubt, which in turns puts down the (probability?) possibility of attaining the previously mentioned success.


Thruthseek3r

reply to post by thruthseek3r

But you don't "know", you believe. Many people had faith that something world changing was going to happen on December 21, 2012. No matter how much they believed it, nothing happened.

So, philosophically, you can say that a person who has faith in something "knows", but that certainty is subjective and does not alter reality. If what they have faith in is not true, then their faith is just as empty as someone hoping for something that will never come to pass.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by thruthseek3r

 

But you don't "know", you believe. Many people had faith that something world changing was going to happen on December 21, 2012. No matter how much they believed it, nothing happened.

So, philosophically, you can say that a person who has faith in something "knows", but that certainty is subjective and does not alter reality. If what they have faith in is not true, then their faith is just as empty as someone hoping for something that will never come to pass.

Putting your faith in something because you want to believe is foolish, just as foolish as hoping something will come to pass rather than actually creating the conditions for it to do so. Foolish to the point of being pathetic. So, is it wise to ever put your faith in something? It is if your faith will secure the final outcome. Faith can strengthen ones resolve to bring about a positive result. It can provide a firm foundation to create from.

reply to post by Shema

Sure but that is not what the OP and the post that was replying to were saying. The question was, can faith guarantee the results. Not always. If the result relies heavily on the believer, like landing that job or getting over a nasty cold, then yes his conviction will have an effect on the results but, if the results are independent of his conviction then no matter how convinced someone is of something, it will not happen. Like 2YK, the UFO trailing Hale-Bopp or 12/21/12. In those cases faith did nothing to create form.

reply to post by Shema


I agree.

I think that ultimately when you dont know but REALLY want something to happen you are not acting in faith but are instead just hoping it will happen. Unless you know that A will produce B and make C then you are just hoping that A leads to C.....sometimes things arent the way we THINK /hope.

IMO faith is more akin to I know that if I save I will eventually have enough money to buy X. Not I HOPE that I will somehow be able to buy X. I can have faith in myself not to be a spend thrift, not to be irresponsible, to stick to my goals.....ect.

I cant have faith in the lottery. I cant have faith in magic...I can have faith in things working out as they are supposed to logically.

I have faith that if I walk into my home and find my wife cheating on me that I can control myself and NOT kill someone. That depends on me. I cant have faith that my wife wont cheat on me. That depends on her.

Faith is founded in knowing. It is not a mystery or random.

Hope really is.

The 2012ers had hoped that something would happen. There was nothing concrete that could be predicted. They could have had faith that THEY would be different because they chose to. They were just hoping for the rest of the world to go through the same process they went through.

They may have had positive results. who knows. In the end their self awareness depends on them.

also Hope needs for a certain level of uncertainty. If you knew everything about a situation you couldnt hope. You would know if your efforts are in vain or conducive to the ends you perceive. If all was revealed you would have faith in the facts.

If you dont know, you are hoping. If you do and it depends on you, you are acting in faith. BUT like I said, faith is not a guarantee.....it is a choice regardless of what may come.

"I have faith that I can be a good person. I hope the rest of the world can be as well"....ect....

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by thruthseek3r

 

So, philosophically, you can say that a person who has faith in something "knows", but that certainty is subjective and does not alter reality.

I think exactly the opposite, reality is like time, it is fluid and can be altered, but this is a whole other debate.

Originally posted by Shema

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by thruthseek3r

 

But you don't "know", you believe. Many people had faith that something world changing was going to happen on December 21, 2012. No matter how much they believed it, nothing happened.

So, philosophically, you can say that a person who has faith in something "knows", but that certainty is subjective and does not alter reality. If what they have faith in is not true, then their faith is just as empty as someone hoping for something that will never come to pass.

Putting your faith in something because you want to believe is foolish, just as foolish as hoping something will come to pass rather than actually creating the conditions for it to do so. Foolish to the point of being pathetic. So, is it wise to ever put your faith in something? It is if your faith will secure the final outcome. Faith can strengthen ones resolve to bring about a positive result. It can provide a firm foundation to create from.

Many variables are to be considered in the big equation of what is the desired outcome of a particular situation. Faith is simply a word I see could relates with confidence and certainty, 2 important variables which leads to the true results. Many more variables are to be taken inconsideration, but the 2 previously named are the basis.



Thruthseek3r

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by Shema

 

Sure but that is not what the OP and the post that was replying to were saying. The question was, can faith guarantee the results. Not always. If the result relies heavily on the believer, like landing that job or getting over a nasty cold, then yes his conviction will have an effect on the results but, if the results are independent of his conviction then no matter how convinced someone is of something, it will not happen. Like 2YK, the UFO trailing Hale-Bopp or 12/21/12. In those cases faith did nothing to create form.

edit on 19-2-2013 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

Some results, are independent, or does it looks like it is ? Only unconsidered variables or aspects which led to non-realization of the desired results. This is how I see independent results.



Thruthseek3r

Originally posted by thruthseek3r
I think exactly the opposite, reality is like time, it is fluid and can be altered, but this is a whole other debate.

Actually the idea that time can be altered is not set in stone.
Splitting time from space - New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime

More specifically, the problem is the way that time is tied up with space in Einstein’s theory of gravity: general relativity. Einstein famously overturned the Newtonian notion that time is absolute—steadily ticking away in the background. Instead he argued that time is another dimension, woven together with space to form a malleable fabric that is distorted by matter. The snag is that in quantum mechanics, time retains its Newtonian aloofness, providing the stage against which matter dances but never being affected by its presence. These two conceptions of time don’t gel.

Some results, are independent, or does it looks like it is ? Only unconsidered variables or aspects which led to non-realization of the desired results. This is how I see independent results.

There are more than just unconsidered variables or aspects. There are those that exist outside the influence of the individual and therefore outside the influence of that individuals faith.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by thruthseek3r
I think exactly the opposite, reality is like time, it is fluid and can be altered, but this is a whole other debate.

Actually the idea that time can be altered is not set in stone.
Splitting time from space - New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime

More specifically, the problem is the way that time is tied up with space in Einstein’s theory of gravity: general relativity. Einstein famously overturned the Newtonian notion that time is absolute—steadily ticking away in the background. Instead he argued that time is another dimension, woven together with space to form a malleable fabric that is distorted by matter. The snag is that in quantum mechanics, time retains its Newtonian aloofness, providing the stage against which matter dances but never being affected by its presence. These two conceptions of time don’t gel.

Some results, are independent, or does it looks like it is ? Only unconsidered variables or aspects which led to non-realization of the desired results. This is how I see independent results.

There are more than just unconsidered variables or aspects. There are those that exist outside the influence of the individual and therefore outside the influence of that individuals faith.

Interesting theory concerning the physic side, I read it all and it seems to be on verge of a breakthrough. When I say time is fluid, I am speaking about the fact it can be bent, this is one of the possibility time travel or very long distance space travel using wormholes (if I am right?) can really work, it is a kind of bending time.

Concerning the unconsidered variables, it is only unconsidered or yet unknown (to be known in the future). The more we learn the less we know it's been said before, but the more we learn, the less the outside influence is present in one's life, pure and simple.



Thruthseek3r

Originally posted by thruthseek3r
Interesting theory concerning the physic side, I read it all and it seems to be on verge of a breakthrough. When I say time is fluid, I am speaking about the fact it can be bent, this is one of the possibility time travel or very long distance space travel using wormholes (if I am right?) can really work, it is a kind of bending time.

I think I understand what you are talking about. One is the folding of space-time, which would only be possible if, contrary to the article I posted, time and space are codependent.

In the case of wormholes the idea is to tear or find a hole is space-time and fly a ship out of it and re-enter at some other point in space time. This also needs Einstein's theory of space-time to be accurate.

Now if the article I posted is the more accurate model then we can fold and try to slip out of the fabric of space-time but it really wouldn't do any good because time would still be ticking away

Concerning the unconsidered variables, it is only unconsidered or yet unknown (to be known in the future). The more we learn the less we know it's been said before, but the more we learn, the less the outside influence is present in one's life, pure and simple.

No argument here but, until we know and can consider those variables, they are outside the effect of our faith and something very trivial can keep something that we have a lot of faith in from happening.

Faith and hope are both the same. If you have faith in something, you are hoping it will prevail. If you have hope in something, you have faith that it can prevail. They are one in the same when used in such a way. Just a pure play of the mind.

If anything, faith is a glorified hope.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Faith and hope are both the same. If you have faith in something, you are hoping it will prevail. If you have hope in something, you have faith that it can prevail. They are one in the same when used in such a way. Just a pure play of the mind.

If anything, faith is a glorified hope.

edit on 25-2-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

It has been already said in one of my previous post, but faith involved unconditional confidence and certainty about a certain result while hope lacks it.

It is the big difference between the two in my honest opinion.



Thruthseek3r

Originally posted by thruthseek3r

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Faith and hope are both the same. If you have faith in something, you are hoping it will prevail. If you have hope in something, you have faith that it can prevail. They are one in the same when used in such a way. Just a pure play of the mind.

If anything, faith is a glorified hope.

edit on 25-2-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

It has been already said in one of my previous post, but faith involved unconditional confidence and certainty about a certain result while hope lacks it.

It is the big difference between the two in my honest opinion.



Thruthseek3r

Faith is a confidence, hope is an expectation. If you're talking about manifesting something, I fail to see the difference between the two. They can be equally affective when employed correctly. Why make one more nobler than the other?

The mind may see them as separate things, but they sprout from the same root.

Originally posted by thruthseek3r
It has been already said in one of my previous post, but faith involved unconditional confidence and certainty about a certain result while hope lacks it.

It is the big difference between the two in my honest opinion.

It's a difference but is it really that big of a difference?

I don't think it is, at least not as laid out in the OP.