Faith VS Hope. The freeman´s will VS the slaves illusion.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


I had all kinds of faith as a child. Care the hear where that got me? I had faith that life would improve if I worked for it. It never did. I even prayed for the kids to stop beating me up, for just one person to be my friend, for my parents to stop fighting all the time, for my dad to stop hitting me when he had a bad day at work or my mom p!ssed him off too much, to just die already so I could escape it all. I didn't just "hope" it would get better, I actually had a childish faith that as long as I was a good kid and kept trying and kept believing that it would get better than some magic man in the sky might offer some assistance. There wasn't a single "God" there to answer the prayers of a shy young boy who never did the "bad" things that the other kids would often do and it only got worse.

So when I was a teenager I learned to accept what faith is. I've been a great relationship for over 9 years now and I didn't have an ounce of "faith" that she would love me back when I first confronted her. I mean sure, I hoped she wouldn't reject me but I knew that that hope didn't mean jack. You don't have to have faith to have love but hope can comfort you without the disappointment that faith can bring.

The only thing faith can do is give a person depression if they had a lot of faith in something but then it doesn't work out so they keep trying but continue to see the same results. It did that to me. I suppose if you have enough faith and enough "bad luck" that faith can lead to major depression that could lead to suicide and that would solve any problems you may have. Hope will never give a rational person depression because they don't expect something because of it.

reply to post by Anundeniabletruth


no one is saying it is a quid pro quo system. Confidence will remove all doubt by at least letting you try and find out. It will also make you try again with someone else.

I never said that faith will make you fly or find a box of 100 dollar bills. It is a force of will power and determination.

Hope may keep you playing the lotto hoping to win...wasting many thousands of dollars in your life time for nothing. it may also make you not jump off a burning building hoping you wont die.

Faith will make you jump off a burning building into a fireman´s net instead of burning. Faith will make you take an interview for a job you may not be really as qualified for as your competition, but land the job over the other guy. Maybe not, but at least it keeps you trying instead of waiting.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Seeing that you said you were catholic then:

Hebrews 11.1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

So faith is conviction in what you hope for. I don't see why you have placed them so far apart. In this example one is an integral part of the other.

reply to post by Anundeniabletruth


I used to get bullied allot in grade school. In fact all through out it. It wasnt until I had faith in myself that I stood up to the bullies. I got my ass kicked allot. BUT I kept coming back. Eventually my faith in myself proved to be the determining factor. It cost them a bloody nose, or a bruise every time they messed with me. They ended up not thinking it worth it to bully me. In the end my faith paid off. If I didnt have it, I would have waited for an eternity until something changed. My faith made me MAKE the change. It wasnt perfect, but It kept me going.

Often times people commit the error of having faith in hope. You WISH for things to change and think that you are empowering yourself by just your will for change. That is not it really. Faith is the acceptance of loss and failure as being part of the journey and the unacceptance of them as the destination. Hope is seeing failure and thinking you didnt hope enough.

Like those ultra Christians that think you need MORE or a high amount of "faith" to handle snakes so they wont bite you. They are in fact just hoping the snakes dont bite. They may have confidence in their wishful thinking, but it is still wishful thinking.

Faith is not random. It is not chance. If you at any point are waiting for an outcome, you are still HOPING for that outcome. No matter how convinced and confident you are that it will come.

If you are willing to try no matter what failures may come, you are then acting in faith. Faith can make you have the courage to learn to handle snakes by having faith in yourself to learn it properly ("I can do this"). Hope would make you think some magical power is making you so good.....("god is allowing me to do this")

reply to post by daskakik


they are related, but they are also a sort of opposites.

Both are forces, yes. But one is self empowerment by focus / will power, the other is surrendering of that power to chance /randomness.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


They are not opposites. According to the bible quote, you can have hope without faith but if you have faith then it is faith in what you hope for. You can also have faith in what you hope for even if it isn't in a religious manner.

reply to post by daskakik


I see what you are saying but faith in your hope is still hope. Faith can keep you hoping for something, but it is not really faith in anything. It is hope still. It is faith in your power of hope. That somehow just wishing for something will make it so.

Faith would make you try to get what you want. Faith in your hope for what you want would still make you keep waiting for what you want. In essence still just hoping you get it.

They are not the same thing though they can and often are confused with each other.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

In the same way, faith in your hope is still faith. According to the OP, this should get you to act in order to cause what you are hoping for to come about.

Honestly, they can be the same thing, even if that throws a monkey wrench in your OP. The thesaurus says they are synonyms. I think your forcing things to fit your claim.

reply to post by daskakik


Regardless of what the thesaurus says, they are not. Destiny and fate are not the same thing and it probably lists them as such. Apples and bananas are fruit but are different.

Fate is unavoidable like a ball at the top of a hill. It will roll down. That is its fate. Destiny would be that which brought the ball to the top. The Guy with the ball and the hill before him chose to embrace his destiny and bring the two together. He could have not done so. But the ball certainly must roll down the hill.

Similarly hope is the man with ball waiting. He can sit waiting for someone to put it at the top. Or he can place it there himself. Hope in his destiny will not make it a reality. Faith in it will.

Hope can't stop the ball from rolling back down. Neither can faith. Fate is unavoidable. Destiny can be changed. Faith will make that man bring the ball back up again after it rolls down simply because he knows he can. Hope will make him sit and wait for the hill to become flat.

No monkey wrench has been thrown. I accept your point of view but have faith I can explain it better so you understand as it is I think things are confused.

Lol

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Your insistence on them being very different, to the point of opposites, is just your opinion. All the vocabulary gymnastics in the world isn't going to change their meanings.

I understand your point well enough but I am pointing out your poor word choice. You could probably switch the words and still make the same argument.

reply to post by daskakik


Maybe. But ancient thought considered them opposites. The allegorical tale of Pandora's box is a prime example.

They are not the same. One comes from courage the other comes from fear. Darkness vs light. Blindness vs sight.

reply to post by Hopechest


I would not define hope as being more "realistic" but more rational, a rational mind refuses beliefs of faith since faith is not predicated on reality. On the other hand because faith is not rational and constricted by any other reality than the mind model of the faithful it is extremely powerful (this is bad and good, to the believer and to those around it).

In a situation that I would benefit from hoping for an outcome I would rather have faith than simple hope. This type effect of mind over matter and "blind" acceptance of sometimes unreasonable results may have had an extreme impact in the evolution of our species, a capability to operate above the "rational" limit is extremely important...

This capability of faith is also more complex than the simpler hope, as to function it requires more complexity, a compounding of intrinsic truths (to the believer), I have been exploring hypnosis for some time now and all this falls into the same type of phenomena and mental capabilities.

Faith also does not forcefully dictate a failing of realization in fact something you deposit faith into has more chances of having the desired result than simple things you hope for. For instance faith is linked to the placebo/nocebo effect and hope is linked to the power of visualization (that requires a lot more effort to work), both will have an influence on the mindscape of the hopeful/faithful without the need for any real external influence.

This is why I see as unproductive to attack and erode other peoples faith, if they are not detrimental to their or others emotional or physical wellbeing as it may deprive them of some of the benefits that it grants to those aspects. It is a hard line to define, for instance those magnetic bracelets or nose bands etc to the believer they do provide a function but should we let other predate on the creation of these types of delusions when all you need to replicate the same benefits is to understand how to use your own powerful toolbox (body/brain).

reply to post by Panic2k11


Excellent post. I agree. Sometimes we must walk a fine line being careful not to erode the faith of others while explaining to them how it is really working.

By removing the illusion we gain knowledge but lose the power of the effect.

I also think that it is an error in trying to attract the faith of others. It is good to be trusted, but it makes for a better world when people can trust themselves. It is more powerful when it is not a power surrendered to others but rather a power rendered unto yourself.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

One ancient Greek poem is not an indicator of what the word means.

What Hesiod meant by writing that all the evils left the box but hope remained after the lid was put back on is open to interpretation.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
Faith VS Hope...

What is hope but a disguised evil. It is a sadistic form of slow death, slow torture, and enduring pain in a hopeless situation. HOPE...is worthless. It is the slaves resignation to never break the chains that hold him. It is the evil of good men that do nothing. It is the vile form of consequence taken from our hands and passed off onto another. It is irresponsibility with ourselves. It is deception unto others. It is inaction. It is the resolve to just let things be.

Faith is the determination of will expressed in the real world. It is action guided by pure will. It is resolve to see things through and self reliance. It is autonomy and affirmative action. It is the champions religion as faith in one self. It is a sense of duty when it is asked of you. We can cast ourselves even unto the uncertain and unknown if we have faith in those that send us, but most importantly if we have faith in our ability to persevere.

Hope is knowing the futility of your defiance to death, injustice and wrong. Hope allows evil to deceive us and string us along without trying to improve the situation we may be in. Hope lies to you and shows you how defeated you are but keeps you silent in your tomb. MAYBE you will rise, MAYBE someone will save you....MAYBE.....hope for it.

Faith is defying death, injustice, tyranny, evil of all forms without the knowledge of how, and especially without the possibility of victory. It is an act of self determination and in layman terms, BALLS. Faith can make an impossible situation turn in your favor. It is the first step after being down. It is the first step into unknown territory.
It is the constant stride of honor bound men and the melody in good men´s hearts.

Faith. The free mans drive to keep his enemies fetters off of his world. It is an act of defiance. A mortal, humble man with faith in himself will defy any leader, king, or God himself if he believes it must be done. THAT is why we are force fed "hope" by less than noble men.

Hope is a tool of subjugation. Faith is an instrument of liberty.

It is no wonder that "hope" was included in Pandora´s box. The ancient Greeks did not see it as a force of good. It was a masked and hidden evil to be employed by mankind against mankind. To wield the evil power of the Gods against mortal men. Zeus seeing he was being deceived sent us "hope" along with all other evils. Pandora snapped the box closed before it was released. Ever since men of little honor have cracked open the lid of that box to release a little hope into the minds of other mortal men. Their reason is one of conquest without resistance, absolute power without prejudice, and the enslavement of all opposition.

A free man has faith. A slave has hope.

edit on 15-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

I think this is very true and faith well applied (not masked as fake hope) can relieve more than we think it can.


S & F.



Thruthseek3r

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Panic2k11

 

Hope is more realistic because you don't know what the future outcomes will be.

Having faith that something will happen is reckless because its not possible to simply "will" things to be.

I hope I do well on my mid-term next week. That is reasonable.

Having faith I'm going to do well is unrealistic because I simply don't know if I've prepared enough. I hope I did.

Having faith you will is better to manifest result than hoping you will, it might look reckless, but it is working better in practical way. Hope let the door open for doubt which is lack of confidence which means a place for failure. With faith, you can fail too, not because of faith itself, but because of the many variables included in solving a problem. Faith is one of these variables and if I apply the pareto law which states 20% of the factors gives 80% of the results, faith is in this 20% of the factor in my honest opinion.

What is your take on it ?




Thruthseek3r

Faith will not serve me better at all. It will not make me smarter or more able to pass my exam. I have prepared all I can so all I can do now is hope.

I see a big lack of confidence here and that is because you still doubt of your capacity in this very example you just gave.

This is how I see it.




Thruthseek3r

reply to post by daskakik


Not to the ancient Greeks. There is no mystery as to how they viewed "hope". It was an evil in their understanding. A scholarly study would reveal such and all teachers of ancient Greek wisdom know this.

The meaning can change from society to society, but considering how Hellenistic thought forged much of the western worlds concepts of moral and legal thought, it is safe to assume that hope was an evil like the others.

If you take an analytical perspective it is similar to other vices.

Also it is not just one allegorical story. It is a reoccurring theme. Hope often leads to the other vices that make good turn evil. Evil is more often then not born from good. Evil is good transformed. If you look closely you will see that hope is the first step in the fall from grace to many heros. It is something once well known, but in a slave mentality culture like our own that is dependent on hope like a junkie it often gets skewed.


Just look to our concept of economic understanding. We hope the economy will recover. Math is not random. We still look to random outcomes to make 2 +2 =5 instead of banking on it equaling 4. The belief in the economy does not dictate spending though we think it does. The people having money to spend or not dictates their spending patterns.

You can look to other examples. Always we praise hope like some form of magical "fix it all".

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

We're not ancient Greeks so whether they thought this or not is beside the point.

This does not help to strengthen your OP in regards to the modern definition.

reply to post by daskakik


I am not strengthening my OP or not. I am trying to explain a part of our cultural mentality that is inherently flawed. Hope is a borrowed concept. We missed the point I think. It does us a disservice.

Like adopting holistic healing but not its sister concept of homogeneous living.
what good is using holistic medicine when your sick if when you are not sick you do nothing to stay healthy. If all you do is counterproductive to holistic healing. You would be better off using conventional medicine that treats the sickness and not the person. That begins after infection and sickness have begun themselves.

Similarly we have adopted "hope" but not the understanding of what it really is. It is not our own concept. We don't really understand it.