Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

The Great Lakes And The Kongo Links To Nile Valley Civilizations.

page: 2
8
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join

posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 09:11 AM
link   
reply to post by Spider879
 


Firstly lets go to commonsense, I have been to Egypt and the majority of people who live there today do not look like sub Saharan or west Africans, however they do look like the images of ancient egyptians drawn by the ancient egyptians themselves.

Now how do you want to deal with that fact, are you trying to say these are Arab invaders who have driven "the real" egyptians into the south (even though they more closely resemble the ancient egyptians than any other group).

In order to assert your theory you need to do all kinds of gymnastics to get it to fit.

1, You need to dismiss modern Egyptians as being Arab invaders, after all you cant have them as ancient egyptians if you want to be the ancient egyptians.

2, you have to invent some invasion in which the true Egyptians were driven out of Egypt and into the south. You have to establish this despite no historical record of this.

3, You have to paint a picture of the Egyptian civilization starting in the south and traveling north along the Nile. You have to establish this despite the temples in the north being far older then anything in the south which should not be the case.

4, You have to ignore all images and references in ancient Egypt that show the egyptians showing themselves as being different then sub Saharan and the fact that ancient egyptians often referred as the inhabitants of kush as being primitive (Clearly you cant have that if your trying to establish that they came from these people)

5, You have to ignore the basic lack of impressive architecture in the south and somehow say they waited to display their building skills when they arrived in the delta.

6, you have to ignore the genetic testing which shows that there is MORE sub Saharan dna in lower Egyptian populations today then there was in antiquity. This runs contradictory to any arguments that egyptians were darker in more ancient times, in fact it tends to suggest that they were lighter skinned. It also makes the theory of civilization coming from the south impossible to work.

7, Finally a comparison to metal working skills, architecture, art, clothing styles, Science, Engineering, mythology and gods between ancient egyptians and sub Saharan shows an impassible gulf....basically they are not comparable.

So in the end I tend to reject the afrocentrics theory as it requires too much mental gymnastics to make it workable...in fact it is completely unworkable to anyone other then an afrocentric.





edit on 18-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 10:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by LUXUS
 

take that man in the vid clearly he is a blackman,but is he more closely related to his white visitor or an African,if you guess African you would be soo wrong


You are joking arnt you, he has black skin, afro hair, wide nose, dark eyes...yet you say he is closer to a white man then a black man????....is that because you don't like to view blacks as primitive in anyway so you now mentally group any primitive black peoples as being closer to the white man...how very weird!

You afrocentrics, you just have the strangest way of thinking, your logic defies logic in fact!
edit on 18-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 10:40 AM
link   
reply to post by Spider879
 


I've encountered the DNAtribes site before, and some of the information is not as reliable as other sources.

While your idea is interesting, it's really not putting together things that existed at the same time and it doesn't show movement of ideas and culture. Evidence that shows a clear tie between two cultures are:

* personal names are the same in both cultures (so, we do see the names of the pharaohs change when the Ku#es come in. The Egyptian language changes some letters in the hieroglyphs to allow these new sounds in the pharaohs' names to be spelled (a good example: in the earliest sets of hieroglyphs (up until early Middle Kingdom, I think (don't quote me... my resource books are at the office)) there is no equivalent for "L" because no words in ancient Egyptian used an "L" sound.)
* animals and plants used as food in one area are taken to another area (good example is tracking the migration of the Polynesians by the arrival of pigs and taro and rats on various islands)
* technology in both cultures becomes the same (good example: blacksmithing with iron appears in the Causcus (Russia) about 1100 BC and spreads to Europe from there... it's seen in the trade routes and appearance of specialized forges that smelt and work iron and not bronze.)
* languages show a lot of "borrow words" from the other culture (example: the Celtic languages start picking up Latin words and roots after the arrival of the Romans, then Germanic structure and roots from the Angles and Saxons and Jutes (who invaded into England) and after THAT, influences from the French (Norman Conquest.))
* They will borrow writing systems if they don't have their own writing system (and this, I think is the weakest link in the chain of evidence.) Egypt was one of the earliest civilizations to have a written language, and while the Nubians did pick up the hieratic script from the Egyptians, there is no evidence of it beyond what is now today the northern area of Nubia.

What's lacking here is parallels in time. I am not deeply familiar with ALL the material out there on these civilizations, so I'm open to being shown that certain things develop in one area until a certain time period, when they also move into a neighboring area (as shown by language, trade, and art.) But the images you've shown are really problematic because you're tying together things that are centuries and many miles apart ... and it seems to be based on "this looks like that" evidence.

...again, I haven't studied this particular subject in great depth, so I'm always open to learning new things. I should mention that the Afrocentric studies have gotten a very bad reputation from some scholars who insist that sub-Saharan Africa is the source of all things Egyptian (and the best things elsewhere) in defiance of the actual evidence.



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 11:34 AM
link   
reply to post by LUXUS
 

First I have not made any mention of Arabs driving anyone out of Egypt, but Persians,Greeks, Roman,Levantines,and Arabs did leave their genetic mark on the land.

Take a look at the map^ those are Nomes or cities according to order from which they were settled the 1st city to 22 lower Egypt starts after Memphis or Menefer, a city that the upper Kemitian Pharoah built by diverting the the flow of the Nile after that project people could actually live there because it was unhealthy swamp land.

Lower Egypt and the delta and notice we started with 1 all over again.

Qustul Incense Burner
A-Group Nubia(3200-3000 BC)


Djoser Temple Constructed 2667–2648 BC
The Kemites portrayed themselves like anyother Africans would,in their case they showed themselves to be mostly chocolate brown,they portrayed other Africans as sometmes ebony black and some times chocolate brown,so what of it other Africans did the same.

Benin painting of battle scenes West Africa.

Ku#es on trade or tribute mission

Ethiopian Prayer Book

Painting done by Zulus

Egyptians painting Egyptians
Really LUXUS if you were in a fight with your siblings I'll bet you would call them all kinda names,Kush on a number of times over ran Kemet,or tried to bully them into submission they were rivals at times.
LUXUS


you have to ignore the genetic testing which shows that there is MORE sub Saharan dna in lower Egyptian populations today then there was in antiquity. This runs contradictory to any arguments that egyptians were darker in more ancient times, in fact it tends to suggest that they were lighter skinned. It also makes the theory of civilization coming from the south impossible to work.

I did no such thing you are the one that post an amature vid because the uploader didn't like the results
LUXUS


7, Finally a comparison to metal working skills, architecture, art, clothing styles, Science, Engineering, mythology and gods between ancient egyptians and sub Saharan shows an impassible gulf....basically they are not comparable. So in the end I tend to reject the afrocentrics theory as it requires too much mental gymnastics to make it workable...in fact it is completely unworkable to anyone other then an afrocentric

And this is where you are at your most mistaken for it is obvious you do not research anything on Africa below the desert,and yes Kemet had Great architecture that can hardly be matched anywhere on this planet,you haven't read the thread have you! just skimming ain't gonna get you anywhere.



...



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 12:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Byrd
 




What's lacking here is parallels in time. I am not deeply familiar with ALL the material out there on these civilizations, so I'm open to being shown that certain things develop in one area until a certain time period, when they also move into a neighboring area (as shown by language, trade, and art.) But the images you've shown are really problematic because you're tying together things that are centuries and many miles apart ... and it seems to be based on "this looks like that" evidence.

Okay can we agree that after the wet phase folks sharing a similar culture dispersed to the Nile and the Niger? and that contact was maintained?/ please check out this link below
A Pharaonic trail ... ? UPDATE: The recent discovery of the inscription of Mentuhotep II at Jebel Uweinat is a dramatic proof that the theories surrounding the Abu Ballas trail were correct! In the mid nineties, during his walking expeditions, Carlo Bergmann discovered a number of pottery caches similar to the one at Abu Ballas. The excavation of the new sites, and the re-examination of Abu Ballas by Rudolph Kuper and the HBI team yielded the startling results that all these pottery depots, along the trail leading from Dakhla towards the Gilf Kebir date from ancient times, the oldest dated finds contemporary with the XVIIIth Dynasty.
www.fjexpeditions.com...
What I am trying to share is the multiple connection from drying up of the Sahara to the Great Lakes and folks travelling down river to jump start what was to become Kush and Egypt,pls when you have spare time view the vid I posted to LUXUS the idea behind this is not new and old Basil Davidson RIP was hardly an Afrocentric the artifacts posted above are echos of that connection the Was Septer the Hangool,and the Wako stick are shown to be royal regilia for Kings and Chiefs from the Sahara to the horn of Africa that is maintianed for thousands of yrs to the present,ditto for the headress,the Ishango Bone uses the method of duplication (multiplication by 2) used more recently in Egyptian multiplication.
www.math.buffalo.edu...
Claudia Zaslavsky mathematician
So yes there is method to my madness,and your point about the criticism of some Afrocentrist is well taken we call them Afro-essentrist but every movement,sociaty what not have it's loons and it's all too easy to drop labels on someone with whom you disagree or have a different POV.
edit on 18-2-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 12:48 PM
link   
reply to post by LUXUS
 

Luxus I could careless about some guy's moad of life in New Guinea they tend to have less stress than us going to our 9-5 arguing and worrying over stuff that don't really matter in the long run,but the fact still remains that the white guy have more in common genetic wise with Africans than the New Guinea guy with an African look alike..a personal note iam ex-navy I have been to New Guiena,the Soloman Isles some of the best beaches in the world but socially we all black folks they wondered about my world I asked them about them about the girls..hey i was young..



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 01:55 PM
link   
reply to post by Spider879
 


OK so show us this wondrous architecture in kush, Since you telling me its the forbearers of ancient Egypt I'm expecting it to be older then Egyptian architecture and of a similar standard.

Also explain to us who these people are in modern Egypt if they are not the real ancient egyptians, and while your at it explain to us how the real egyptians got driven out of Egypt and where they went?


BTW Kush-ites in Egyptian art are shown with black or red pigments but never drawn in yellow ocher like the egyptians themselves, shows that the egyptians viewed the Kush-ites as racially different to themselves!
edit on 18-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 03:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by LUXUS
reply to post by Spider879
 


OK so show us this wondrous architecture in kush, Since you telling me its the forbearers of ancient Egypt I'm expecting it to be older then Egyptian architecture and of a similar standard.

Also explain to us who these people are in modern Egypt if they are not the real ancient egyptians, and while your at it explain to us how the real egyptians got driven out of Egypt and where they went?


BTW Kush-ites in Egyptian art are shown with black or red pigments but never drawn in yellow ocher like the egyptians themselves, shows that the egyptians viewed the Kush-ites as racially different to themselves!
edit on 18-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)


Come now you are being obtuse,two hundred yrs ago Americans weren't building sky scrapers now look at us.you more than likely didn't understand the simple map of the Nomes or what it represents nor the signifcance of the Qustul incense burner A group culture,here is a lil home work for you compare the art and architecture from Kemet and Nubia 3300-3100 yrs B.C .

Jebel Barkal: Center of Ancient Napata
Yaawn!! you ^made this too easy and what you gonna ignore the other non Kemetic examples I produced??
There are no fake egyptians if they have but one drop of ancient Egyptian blood in them then they are related to their ancestors no matter how they looked today.

"Some" modern Egyptian POV on the matter

Now turn out the lights I am going to bed.
edit on 18-2-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2013 @ 05:57 PM
link   
reply to post by Spider879
 


So all you got to show is a nubian, Egyptian imitation incense burner. Where is this wondrous nubian architecture you were talking about, the prerequisite to all ancient Egyptian buildings....exactly you dont have it and you want to know why, its because civilization traveled from north to south not south to north. The egyptians have tons of evidence that civilization traveled from north to south and you got a broken incense burner.

As for this dark skinned street dude in the vid, obviously he would say that, just like a low cast Indian would tell you the upper cast Indians are not the true bramins.

As for the real egyptians, the ones most closely related to the ancient egyptians they are the coptics. Coptics refuse to marry outside their group and so retain the closest genetic link to ancient egyptians




Most of Egypt's Copts maintain that they are the purest bloodline to have descended from the ancient Egyptians. As one Coptic friend tells me: "I maintain that I'm not an Arab. I'm an Egyptian and of pharaonic descent. The only thing that ties me to the Arabs is the Arabic language."





The ancient Egyptian language continued to be spoken, and evolved into what became known as the Coptic language





The Copts are the direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians or the “modern sons of the pharaohs”


www.guardian.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...
wiscopts.net...
edit on 18-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 01:26 AM
link   
reply to post by LUXUS
 

LUXUS



So all you got to show is a nubian, Egyptian imitation incense burner. Where is this wondrous nubian architecture you were talking about, the prerequisite to all ancient Egyptian buildings....exactly you dont have it and you want to know why, its because civilization traveled from north to south not south to north. The egyptians have tons of evidence that civilization traveled from north to south and you got a broken incense burner.

Actually No! that's not all I got.. but before I go rummaging through my files,I want you to tell me that you understand the significance of the maps below.


Then quote a source from an archaeologist/Egyptologist within the last 20yrs that made the claim that Kemitic civilization began in the north of Egypt .
As to the Copts they are no more related to the ancient Kemites than any other groups living in Egypt as they have Greek,Syrian,Roman and Levantine ancestors along with their ancient Kemetic fore fathers. btw did you listen to the tour guide trained in her craft said??

BTW Pt2 will help you on your search good luck

AM I NOT MERCIFULL!!!!.
edit on 19-2-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 05:41 AM
link   
All that map shows is that there are loads of settlements and therefore archeology in lower and upper Egypt but nothing in kush as I suspected.

No mainstream Egyptology in any university teaches that kush-ites were responsible for the Egyptian civilization and the lack of ancient architecture of comparable standards and antiquity in kush proves that they were incapable. This is reinforced by the ancient Egyptians assertion that kush-ites were primitive.

The dna testing which shows that the ONLY mass movement into lower Egypt in the last few thousand years has been by sub- Saharan Africans seals the afrocentrics fate because it they wernt there as a majority in antiquity then obviously they were not responsible for the Egyptian civilization. This also debunks any rubbish about ancient egyptians being darker skinned then modern egyptians, quite the opposite if anything modern egyptians are darker skinned then ancient egyptians....hence the coptics are as stated the truest representative of the ancient egyptians.
edit on 19-2-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 01:54 PM
link   
reply to post by LUXUS
 

Ooh first off I am just blown away by the vid,I mean such vivid colors and the graphics with the silent lecturer no need of STRs no Hyplotypes just the Green,Black and yellow with a touch of Red, colors I wear in summer.and then throw in Shomarka keita as an endorsement for his/her graphic design absolutely brilliant.


Here are two vids one from Keita himself and the other from Chris Ehret,please take time to view them yes they are dry and sober but if you are in collage or a collage grad you should be used to this.
LUXUS


All that map shows is that there are loads of settlements and therefore archeology in lower and upper Egypt but nothing in kush as I suspected.

Ahh now we are making progress now you know there is a difference between Kush and Nubia,but those loads of settlement meant something, the first Nome or district represented by the no 1 is in NUBIA that's where part of Ta-Seti and Qustul further south was located as a state represented by the A-group culture.
A-Group is the designation for a distinct culture that arose between the First and Second Cataracts of the Nile in Nubia from ca 3800 BC until ca. 2800 BC, time of the Egyptian 2nd dynasty. The A-Group settled on very poor land with scarce natural resources, yet they became the first Nubians to develop agriculture. This culture was one of the two important "kingdoms" in Lower Nubia. Artefacts from this culture were first discovered in 1907 by Egyptologist George A. Reisner.
Vessels of Nubian A-Group, Musée du Louvre.

A-Group royal tombs were found to be two centuries older than those of the Egyptians. The A-Group had strong beliefs in the afterlife. A great deal of time was put into their cemeteries and funerals. The dead were placed in burial mounds with their bodies facing the West. Grave goods such as jewellery, pottery, stone bowls, linen cloth, copper tools, and cosmetic palettes were found on or near bodies.

The Egyptian Speos (Temples)

The Egyptian rock cut temple, or speos, was of Nubian origin. The earliest example of which was the cave sanctuary at Sayala, a Nubian site just north of Abu Simbel on the west bank of the Nile River. This site is dated to the period of the Nubian A-Group culture (3700-3250 B.C.E.). This particularly Nubian architectural expression was adopted by the Egyptians of the New Kingdom, whose pharaohs commissioned several temples in Upper Egypt and in Nubia. The earliest of these, at Speos Artemidoros, is dated to the reign of Queen Hatshepsut of Dynasty XVIII, and the most famous are the paired Northern and Southern Temples at Abu Simbel. Here, Rameses II, to whom the Greater, or Southern Sanctuary is dedicated, is equated with male solar deities but can only dawn via the ministration of the female principal, ascribed to his chief queen Nofertari, to whom the Lesser, or Northern Sanctuary is dedicated.
wysinger.homestead.com...'

Dakhla residents

C group culture is Kush.
edit on 19-2-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 06:55 PM
link   
reply to post by Spider879
 



I have lost interest, I stated before in point form why this afrocentric rubbish cant work, sorry but you are going to have to search for another white person to try to convince that black people built the castles in Europe or the pyramids in Egypt both theory's are equally as stupid in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 07:04 PM
link   
Accurate or not I found this to be very interesting. I like how you tried to tie it all together.

Good effort.



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 08:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by LUXUS
reply to post by Spider879
 



I have lost interest, I stated before in point form why this afrocentric rubbish cant work, sorry but you are going to have to search for another white person to try to convince that black people built the castles in Europe or the pyramids in Egypt both theory's are equally as stupid in my opinion.


Hmm how interesting that we are on a site filled with out of the box thinkers, of folks who pushes the envelope with very little evidence but lot of guts to make main-stream scientist duck and cover you find it preposterous that Black folks have had little or no part in developing a civilization on their home turf despite a mountain of evidence, but space men travelling from Alpha Centauri 4.7 light yrs from earth built structures and monuments all over the globe.
Like the motto of this great site said DENY IGNORANCE.



posted on Feb, 19 2013 @ 08:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by rocklobster1
Accurate or not I found this to be very interesting. I like how you tried to tie it all together.

Good effort.

Thanks but there is always room for improvement,the great and frustrating thing about this line of investigation is everything you thought you knew can be undone with one spade full of dirt in some jungle or burning desert and the tighting of some genetic code.



posted on Feb, 20 2013 @ 03:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by LUXUS
reply to post by Spider879
 



I have lost interest, I stated before in point form why this afrocentric rubbish cant work, sorry but you are going to have to search for another white person to try to convince that black people built the castles in Europe or the pyramids in Egypt both theory's are equally as stupid in my opinion.


Hmm how interesting that we are on a site filled with out of the box thinkers, of folks who pushes the envelope with very little evidence but lot of guts to make main-stream scientist duck and cover you find it preposterous that Black folks have had little or no part in developing a civilization on their home turf despite a mountain of evidence, but space men travelling from Alpha Centauri 4.7 light yrs from earth built structures and monuments all over the globe.
Like the motto of this great site said DENY IGNORANCE.


The city's of Johannesburg, cape town, port Elizabeth are on your turf....you gonna try to tell me black people built those too? Based on your argument those city s are in Africa so black people must have built them too. You might have some difficulty explaining the 5 million white south Africans there but perhaps you can say they invaded after black people had already built those skyscrapers.





posted on Feb, 20 2013 @ 12:38 PM
link   
reply to post by LUXUS
 

LUXUS


The city's of Johannesburg, cape town, port Elizabeth are on your turf....you gonna try to tell me black people built those too? Based on your argument those city s are in Africa so black people must have built them too. You might have some difficulty explaining the 5 million white south Africans there but perhaps you can say they invaded after black people had already built those skyscrapers.

"Ahem" how do one spell strawman..lemme see S.T.R.A.W.--M.A.N ..yeaaay got IT!!! strawman.anyone who would deny the impact of Europeans aka white folks have on the world positive or negative within the last 500yrs is a fool..and I ain't that guy,but that still don't mean that Euros or Euro-like folks from out side the continent jump start Kemet.. for anyone to deny that in this day and age with all the info available is acting the????...



posted on Feb, 23 2013 @ 03:50 AM
link   
More on the Links To Nile Valley Civilizations.

In Togo,Benin and Nigeria, the Kutito(among Gbe speaking people) and Egungun (among Yoruba speaking people) are masked dancing ancestors returning to earth to help and punish living people. Jean Charles Coovi Gomez pointed out that this ceremony was exactly the same as what we know of Kemetic "raising the Djed Pillar Ceremony".

Egungun ,the Yoruba name of the ceremony means "bone, skeleton". In Kmt, the Djed pillar was considered as the backbone of the neter Ausar. There is ample evidence for mummification in traditional Africa. Félix Dubois reported it among Songhoi people, M.Delafosse among Baule(Akan) people of Ivory Coast, A.M.L Desplagnes among the Dogon and Mossi, J.C.C.Gomez among the Yoruba.

On the far left, is an ancient Egyptian "paddle" doll, courtesy of the British Museum; in the middle, we have Ashanti examples of the fertility doll, and third image is yet another example of fertility dolls common amongst the Akan.

Fertility dolls are a fairly common theme in Africa, from the Akan speaking groups of Ghana to the Donguena, Evale, Hakawama, Himba, Humbe, Kwanyama, Mukubal, Mwila, Ndimba, Ngambwe, Ovambo and Zemba people of the semi-desert areas of Angola for example, and it appear that the ancient Egyptians were no different in this aspect.

A little trivia on the Egyptian "paddle doll"...

Such dolls are usually found in Upper Egypt and Nubia. When complete they have faces and hair of clay. Hair may also be of faience beads. This one is missing its hair. A number have been found dating to the second half of the 11th Dynasty from tombs in the neighbourhood of Deir el Bahri and are common at Thebes. However, at least two have been found in earlier tombs at Beni Hasan and one at Rifeh. Another was found beneath the Ramesseum at Thebes dating to the 13th Dynasty (Bourriau 1988, 126-127). Most are of 11th Dynasty to Middle Kingdom.
exploring-africa.blogspot.jp...

Gourd ornamentation is a widely practiced tradition on the African continent. In the images above, although the specimens themselves in question are from vastly different time frames, with the Sahelian example being the far more recent example, the remarkable parallelism in the themes of the art is hard to miss. On the left, we have the image of an Egyptian example dating back to the Nagadan period some time in around the 4th millennium BC, while on the right, we have a sub-Saharan example from west Africa.



posted on Feb, 23 2013 @ 02:44 PM
link   
More Links this time in the form of serekhs in both cases by an object or an animal and while the Kemetic symbols developed into a full writing system where the name could be read,the Beninese kings used theirs as a memory device.

Prince Gagni Xesu (1620) is symbolised by a bird and a drum.

Dyn 0 Kemet King Scorpion.


King Hwegbeadja (1645–1680) is represented by a fish and a fyke net.

Narmer

Now one or two similarities we could chalk-up it to coincidence but an entire cluster points to linkage





new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join