Boy Scouts Maintains Gay Ban, But Accepts Convicted Criminals

reply to post by Carreau


No... I do not mean a place that is specifically "for" a certain type of people. And I believe you already knew that...

The boy scouts not allowing gays into their "special" club is similar to someone not allowing blacks into their shop. While I am all for people being able to refuse service to others if those people are causing some kind of trouble, I simply do not understand how anyone could justify blatant discrimination without a good given cause.

Example:

You or I go into a local restaurant drunk and start bothering people. The person in charge tells us to leave.

I do not think that person would be in the wrong at all because you are being disrespectful and also hurting their business.

Now:

A gay couple goes into the restaurant and isn't causing any trouble. They're very polite to the server and simply want to sit down and have a few drinks or whatever. The person in charge demands they leave because they are very obviously a homosexual couple. BUT they aren't doing anything sexual or anything... just trying to have a burger and some drinks like everyone else.

I DO think that person would be in the wrong because they are being an @ hole, no two ways about it.


So... what I want to know from you, is would it be "fair" in your opinion if I told someone to GTFO of my place of business because they seem like someone of lower intelligence, even though the person wasn't being a problem?

I don't think that would be fair. Nor do I think that discriminating based solely on someones sexuality would be fair.

I don't like rednecks, but I am willing to deal with them if they aren't causing any trouble. You and others might not like gays, ( to be fair, I feel uncomfortable around the tinker bell types myself ) , BUT if they aren't causing any trouble, you and everyone else should look to people such as myself, step up and be a real man and accept that sometimes you have to be willing to be a responsible and respectful person in this world of ours.

reply to post by Anundeniabletruth

you and everyone else should look to people such as myself, step up and be a real man and accept that sometimes you have to be willing to be a responsible and respectful person in this world of ours.

"real man" I think you have a very distorted definition of what a "real man" is.

You make a lot of assumptions. I don't have a problem with homosexuals, blacks, ect. I never said I did. And as far as what I think is "fair"? This isn't Kindergarten, this is LIFE and newsflash, life isn't "fair". Now having said that; I believe in freedom, period. I want more of it, freedom, liberty, and choice.

A private group, a business, a private funded club, whatever should be allowed to invite, admit, and serve whoever they want and exclude whoever they want. That's freedom. If I own a bar and only want to serve blacks, and kick everyone out, that should be my right as a business owner. If I start a camping group and only allow heterosexuals, and you don't like it, tough. It's my group.

If I own a bar why can't I allow smoking in it, why does the State make a law banning smoking in a privately owned business? It's my bar.

Tougaloo College is a 100% black student private school and I think it is wonderful. There should be a 100% white college if people want it. Do you understand what I'm saying to you. There are too many people who want to tell other people what they can and can not do and it is going too far.

We need more freedom, not less. I look to people like you as detriment to a free society and a symptom of what's wrong in the world. It's none of your business who I serve in my business and I resent you thinking you have any right or say in what I do. Just as I have no right to tell someone else how to run their business or club.

reply to post by Anundeniabletruth

Would it be okay if a place said that you are not allowed in if your IQ is below a specific number or if you did not leave high school with above a 3.0 gpa?

Ironically....... This is the "dumbest" argument I have heard all day.

reply to post by Carreau


I do not believe that you ever learned the definition of the word freedom or irony.

A real man, or woman for that matter, hell, any real adult, would understand that when people do things simply "because they can, " nothing ever gets done very well.

What you have done thus far is whine and complain about how it isn't fair that people don't want others to discriminate unfairly... Yet you say that the world isn't fair and imply that you prefer that. Okay... that makes sense.

You complain about others telling people what they can't do yet that is exactly what you are supporting....

So using your logic I am to believe that your opinion is right because you're you and since you're you you have to be right. Because you're telling me that people like me shouldn't tell people like you that you shouldn't be telling other people what they can't do. Do you not see how childish this is? We're going in circles.

You think an all black school or an all white school is great but I ask the better question:

Why? Why should we need a race exclusive school in this day? Can you provide me with an answer other than, "just because?" Wouldn't it be cheaper to have one good school for everyone? I simply cannot understand why there would ever be any real need for that kind of thing. It seems like a wonderful way to waste money if you ask me.

You say that I make a lot of assumptions as if you are not equally as guilty of doing so. Did you ever learn the definition of the word hypocrite? I am all for a business being able to decide on things such as smoking. BUT those concepts aren't even apples and oranges.

I think we're both making a lot of assumptions about each other simply because we have very different views on the particular subject. I see myself as someone who believes that as long as another person isn't harming someone then that person should be permitted to be who they are and be treated equally to myself no matter what others may think. I am STRONGLY against government OR large businesses telling people ANYTHING! I am not the "liberal" that I believe you see me as. As a matter of fact I would probably be MUCH closer to an anarchist.

I simply refuse to condone pointless hate. While I am certainly no fan of it ( who is?), I do believe that the government should be doing one thing. The government should be keeping the citizens in check. We shouldn't be fighting each other over silly things.

Or would you prefer allowing the corporate leaders of our world to have complete and open control because the government can't tell anyone what to do? It was like that in 1880. Care to guess where you and I both would most likely be right now if this was 1880? We would be slaving away for nothing in a very unsafe working condition for 16 hours a day 7 days a week right beside our wife and kids just to be broke after paying the bills. That ain't freedom my friend... I don't care what they've convinced you to believe.

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by Anundeniabletruth

 

Would it be okay if a place said that you are not allowed in if your IQ is below a specific number or if you did not leave high school with above a 3.0 gpa?

Ironically....... This is the "dumbest" argument I have heard all day.

I agree, it's pretty F**kin" stupid BUT I fail to see how it is any "dumber" than someone saying that a gay person should not be allowed in. Care to enlighten me?

They are their own private group, they should be able to do whatever they want. What I want to know is why do gays want to join an organization that hates them?
If there was a group that didn't allow me in for the lifestyle i choose then i would not want to be a part of that.
People need think about these things and choose their battles. I don't think blacks are raising a fuss about not being allowed in the KKK.

Originally posted by Anundeniabletruth

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by Anundeniabletruth

 

Would it be okay if a place said that you are not allowed in if your IQ is below a specific number or if you did not leave high school with above a 3.0 gpa?

Ironically....... This is the "dumbest" argument I have heard all day.

I agree, it's pretty F**kin" stupid BUT I fail to see how it is any "dumber" than someone saying that a gay person should not be allowed in. Care to enlighten me?

Would you care to enlighten yourself by reading the posts already made within the thread?

Once you do so, would you then further humor me by explaining your reasons for stating what you have, besides your feeling that we should just "let them all in"?

Its got to be hard living in fear of people who aren't out to hurt you.

Just cant believe that being a homosexual is such a big deal to people. I honestly feel sorry for you. Surely ignorance isnt that blissful?

We go over this all the time, there is nothing unnatural about being gay. That's a fact. Scientific. Proven. Historically proven. Its a valid sexual orientation, always had been. It wasn't just suddenly invented and thrusted into society (no pun intended)

People are gay, Get over it.

Everyone who has argued in this thread to force one group onto another are hypocrites. You think you are supporting a minority? Who are the most vulnerable minority? The individual. You can not say you support minority rights without first supporting the individual. How can you do that? Free speech and the right to private property. Both of which you deny by forcing inclusion onto a private group.

You don't like it when someone "hates" someone else? too damn bad. When you try to criminalize THOUGHTS no matter how disgusting, you have gone too far. Get over yourselves, your ideas and ideals are no more important or correct than anyone else. Live your life and leave everyone else alone. Trust me you wouldn't want someone else to tell you how to live, don't impose yourself on others.

reply to post by Carreau


"Trust me you wouldn't want someone else to tell you how to live"

Well the funny thing is that people like yourself have pretty much ALWAYS been telling me how to live. And it's not just people like you, the liberal extremists are just as guilty. You see, that's the problem with being in the middle, ALL of the crazy Republicans and Democrats think they know what's best for everyone else so they never stop telling you how to live.

You and I clearly have different views of the world. I look at things with a much more open mind and am willing to consider the consequences of actions, while you on the other hand have a MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY! MENTALITY and only care about the wants of yourself and those like you. That's wrong whether you like it or not. It is no different than that of our previous and current presidents and is much to blame for the economy being as it is today.

I could accept hate if it were within reason. A sex offender for example. BUT there is no place for pointless and unwarranted hatred in society today. I'm going to make it simple for ya, just as the right wingers love to tell the left wingers, if you don't like it leave! If that's a problem than get over it, grow up, and start to act like a human being and learn to respect your fellow man. Aren't those supposed to be core conservative values?

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
Its got to be hard living in fear of people who aren't out to hurt you.

Just cant believe that being a homosexual is such a big deal to people. I honestly feel sorry for you. Surely ignorance isnt that blissful?

We go over this all the time, there is nothing unnatural about being gay. That's a fact. Scientific. Proven. Historically proven. Its a valid sexual orientation, always had been. It wasn't just suddenly invented and thrusted into society (no pun intended)

People are gay, Get over it.

All moot.

This isn't a homosexual issue, although, the LBGT community would like it to be.

This is a liability issue. A massive liability issue. A massive liability issue that the Scouts have zero chance of controlling.

Who is going to pay the price of the lawsuits when a homosexual boy is bullied, beaten, and possibly permanently damaged? The kids? Hardly, they are all under age and you will be extremely hard pressed to get a confession...The kid's parents? Not unless you can criminally charge one of the kids...so that leaves who?

The Scouts.

They know what happens at camp. They know that as soon as it is 'lights out', control is more of a suggestion than a rule. They have a pretty darn good idea of what is going to happen, and who will pay the price.

I don't know about the rest of you, but any camp I have ever been to has been one camp by day, and one by night.

Unfortunately, the Scouts are making the best decision for the Scouts. Will that piss people off? Certainly. Does that change the fact that it is the best decision for the Scouts? Not at all.

Originally posted by Superhans
They are their own private group, they should be able to do whatever they want. What I want to know is why do gays want to join an organization that hates them?
If there was a group that didn't allow me in for the lifestyle i choose then i would not want to be a part of that.
People need think about these things and choose their battles. I don't think blacks are raising a fuss about not being allowed in the KKK.

Here's the thing though-no one is telling them they cant do it. What I am doing is pointing out the silliness involved with what they are doing.

I don't think blacks are raising a fuss about not being allowed in the KKK

This thread now contains two of the most asinine argument points ever brought in.

reply to post by peck420


Pretty good point. I remember the scouts, and royal rangers all too well. Regular campouts were pretty tame, but the pow wows, well wow. Some of us even targetted leaders we thought were jerks, sneaking out at night and cutting some of the support ropes on their tents and stuff. Fun times. The wimpy kids were definitely picked on. Most just ended up quitting anyways after whining like little girls to a leader and being told to man up and stop whining.

reply to post by Anundeniabletruth


I'm not a conservative or Republican. You keep trying and are still wrong

Originally posted by Helious
Black is skin color, a race of people who have rich heritage and culture and also unfortunately a tragic past of being exploited and mistreated in this country. You can not compare skin color with sexual preference. I'n my opinion, it's not even remotely close to the same thing.

Please re-read the first sentence and tell me how that doesn't also apply to gay people.

Probably the biggest logical fail I've seen so far on ATS; it's an intellectual tragedy that you're getting stars for it.

Originally posted by peck420
All moot.

This isn't a homosexual issue, although, the LBGT community would like it to be.

discriminating on the grounds of sexual orientation makes its a LBGT issue - But to be fair, this is also an issue for heterosexual people. This type of discrimination may effect their children if they are indeed homosexual (which would be no fault of their own because its natural)

This is a liability issue. A massive liability issue. A massive liability issue that the Scouts have zero chance of controlling.

If that's true then we should pull all the fat kids out of school because if they are being bullied then the parents might sue the school. Lets not try and challenge bigoted bullies who need more education, lets instead remove the object of their teasing from society because segregation has a long track record of improving societies.
/End sarcasm.

Who is going to pay the price of the lawsuits when a homosexual boy is bullied, beaten, and possibly permanently damaged?

If we actually kicked this type of bigoted discrimination in the nuts then the chances of someone being beaten on grounds of their homosexuality would surely be very low. As for who would pay the law suit? How about the person/family who committed the hate crime?

The kids? Hardly, they are all under age and you will be extremely hard pressed to get a confession...The kid's parents? Not unless you can criminally charge one of the kids...so that leaves who?


The Scouts.

Stop me if im wrong, It is my understanding that whenever you send your child off to a group - any group - There are certain people who become responsible for the health and safety of every member of that group. Its a big job. Kids can fight over anything. Teenagers can scrap over anything. To say that the Scouts are trying to nullify their risk of a child being beaten by other members of the group is laughable. And just so you know, just because YOU might be willing to beat on someone over their sexuality doesn't mean everyone is on the same level.

They know what happens at camp. They know that as soon as it is 'lights out', control is more of a suggestion than a rule. They have a pretty darn good idea of what is going to happen, and who will pay the price.

as ive said, there is always a risk of fights breaking out over this and that. Life is risky but what's the point trying to make it safely to the grave? The Scouts have a responsibility to keep their members safe, those members will always be at some risk at any given time.

I don't know about the rest of you, but any camp I have ever been to has been one camp by day, and one by night.
Unfortunately, the Scouts are making the best decision for the Scouts. Will that piss people off? Certainly. Does that change the fact that it is the best decision for the Scouts? Not at all.

But what the scouts are really saying is "We don't accept that homosexuality is a natural sexual orientation, so much to the point that we are unwilling to accept these types of people because they are defective to our ideal. It gives the message to their members that being gay is wrong, thus homophobia is carried on into the next generation.

Those kids who are suppose to be learning "life values" cant even accept the simple little fact that not all men like women.

Move with the times. Its not taboo to be a human being any more.

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by Helious
Black is skin color, a race of people who have rich heritage and culture and also unfortunately a tragic past of being exploited and mistreated in this country. You can not compare skin color with sexual preference. I'n my opinion, it's not even remotely close to the same thing.

Please re-read the first sentence and tell me how that doesn't also apply to gay people.

Probably the biggest logical fail I've seen so far on ATS; it's an intellectual tragedy that you're getting stars for it.

The only intellectual tragedy fail here is whoever or whatever taught you to think that sexual preference is the same thing as being black in America. Astounding and quite honestly, ridiculous.

Originally posted by Helious

The only intellectual tragedy fail here is whoever or whatever taught you to think that sexual preference is the same thing as being black in America. Astounding and quite honestly, ridiculous.

Being gay is the same thing as being black.

It's also the same thing as being white.

The same thing as being a woman.

The same thing as being a man.

The same thing as being a Christian.

The same thing as being an Atheist.

Because people are just people. Accept it. Grow up.